BOSE Acoustimass/Lifestyle systems - why you should steer clear!!

[SierraMikeBravo]

Originally Posted by got rice

I respect your opinion, and you are entitiled to your wrong opinion. Very simply put, here is a third party scientific test held with the Def Tech Mythos STS (which does incorporate the subwoofer in the speaker).

http://hometheatermag.com/floorlouds...em/index3.html

It is apparent that Def Tech has taken into account the full spectrum of the listening range when crossed over at 80hZ. The lower end at -3dB is 38Hz and-6dB is at 29Hz. The upper range at -3dB is at 111Hz.

No problem on not accepting my opinion, but I will say it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the speakers are full range or not. It has to do with placement.

From another post:

Crossing over your speakers at less than 80 Hz is not a good idea unless you have the capability of placing your speakers more than 4 feet from the front wall. In lieu of placement flexibility, I recommend in-walls! Again, for the reasons of physics.

What I look for in a speaker is how low is the distortion (again, I never take manufacturer's specs at face value), impedence, off-axis response, efficiency (which is usually related to driver size), and frequency spectrum above 80 Hz.

What I am trying to get at is how waves interact with each other and the boundaries of the room, and how that transfers to the listening area, and not worrying about how low the speaker can go. That is why you have a subwoofer. Since low frequencies are non-directional you don't need a full range speaker, but what IS important is WHERE those subwoofers are placed. As I said before, placing the sub with the speaker will often lead you to more harm than good. We are looking for a similar response across the entire listening area...not just one seat.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Hmm, I think it's time for a new thread..because I was seriously considering those Def 7004 for a while..

[Canada]

Originally Posted by Maswov

I see most people bash Bose speakers here, I am curious why. Yes I do have bose speakers run thru a yamaha AV reciever. Sounds good to me. Seems to me its like a Ford/Chevy kinda thing they are both decent but if ya don't like one or the other you will find the flaws. Enlighten me please...

You can do a lot better for the money, as some one said if they knocked 50 or 60% of the MSRP they would be ok speakers, but as it is you can do a lot better with your money.

[Big Daddy]

How many threads to we need to bash Bose? How did this thread turn into Def Tech bashing thread?

In his attack on Def Tech super tower speakers, SierrsMikeBravo exhibits a total lack of understanding of the function of tower speakers. If we are to listen to him, we will have to dump our full-range tower speakers into the ocean and replace them with bookshelf speakers. Perhaps, he is a little confused by the term "Built-in Subwoofers".

Definitive Technology super towers are an example of great full-range tower speakers. What makes them full-range are the built-in subwoofers (perhaps not the right way of describing them) and the outstanding midrange and tweeters. In addition, the bipolar nature of these speakers enables them to fill the room with music and making them very satisfying.

The built-in subwoofers are not meant to be used as subwoofers. They are there to give the super towers low frequency extension in two-channel music and HT applications. They are very different than regular subwoofers because their upper frequencies are higher than a normal subwoofer. They are built like that for better blending with the midrange drivers.

You also forget that the LFE effect in modern DVD and Blu-ray movies is independent of the crossover that you set in the receiver. They are programmed for the subwoofer by the sound engineers regardless of whether you have SMALL or LARGE speakers.

A subwoofer's job is very limited. In most cases, it provides low frequency output in the 20Hz to 120Hz range (sometimes up to 160Hz or more). Because the wavelengths of these frequencies are too long, they interact with the room boundaries and create standing waves. Contrary to what SierraMikeBravo indicates, no matter how often you move the subwoofer around, you will not be able to get smooth and even bass across the room for all listening positions. At best, you can get good bass for one listening position. To get more even bass for all positions, you need two or more subwoofers and they require proper positioning.

In most movies and music (two-channel and multi-channel), only a very small percentage of sound is low frequency sound that goes to the built-in subwoofers of the Def Tech super towers. Yet, you notice that they are working, even when you don't hear any bass sound. You keep assuming that the supper towers are subwoofers to be placed in a corner and play only low frequency sound. For your information, they are full-range tower speakers. If we are to discount them, then we should forget about all tower speakers and dump them in favor of low cost monitors and satellites. Definitive Technology company also builds many outstanding high-end dedicated subwoofers for low frequency purposes. Super Towers are not subwoofers. They are full-range tower speakers.

For best performance, almost all speakers should be placed a couple of feet away from the walls. Bipolar speakers such as Def Tech speakers are recommended to be placed away from the walls because of the drivers in the back of the speakers.

It always amazes me that people who critize these speakers have never heard, owned, or reviewed them under proper conditions. There are hundreds of professional reviews of these speakers by people who have the proper equipment and the required knowledge and experience. They all rave about their performance. Unfortunately, we keep hearing inaccurate and prejudicial comments every day.

SierraMikeBravo, you keep referring to and hiding behind Physics. You have done this in other threads also. It is about time that you enlighten mortals like us about this mysterious subject.

[SierraMikeBravo]

Contrary to what SierraMikeBravo indicates, no matter how often you move the subwoofer around, you will not be able to get smooth and even bass across the room for all listening positions.

Big Daddy,

You just go on believing that. I'll be more than happy to send you the graphs before parametric EQ is applied.

SierraMikeBravo, you keep referring to and hiding behind Physics. You have done this in other threads also. It is about time that you enlighten mortals like us about this mysterious subject.

I won't when asked like that.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Big Daddy,

You just go on believing that. I'll be more than happy to send you the graphs before parametric EQ is applied.



I won't when asked like that.

@ SierraMikeBravo: Seriously Serious Cereal.. I really question your stubbornness or if you really are that ignorant of a person. Come on, are we like in first grade again? And to think that we're full grown adults..well almost in my case..but still?? Really??? Are we like five again and fighting in elementary school over which super hero is better?? Wow. This forum board used to have some of the nicest people..but now it just gets littered with 'junior' members such as yourself and really taints the board with negative vibes..

@Big Daddy: Thank you for a very informative post. And yes, I'm really considering the Def Tech 7004 for my future HT room when I move out. I believe that Definitive Tech knows about these so called laws of physics that SierraMikeBravo speaks of..yet they still choose to put subs in there towers..and like you BD, I know for the exact reason why they would like you mentioned.

And overall, yes I would still use a sub with these towers..but just because this happens to be mostly a HT forum board..doesn't mean that some people might actually listen to music more than watch movies.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Big Daddy,

You just go on believing that. I'll be more than happy to send you the graphs before parametric EQ is applied.

I go on believing theorectical and practical science. I own a subwoofer prametric equalizer/analyzer. I also own 4 subwoofers and 2 Def Tech top-of-the-line super tower speakers in my home theater room and one DIY subwoofer in my 2-channel music. In addition to my engineering degree, I have years of experience with tweaking and playing with subwoofers and audio/video equipment.

With one subwoofer, you can get fairly good bass response for one listening position. To get even and smooth bass across the room for multiple listening positions, you need two or more subwoofers (up to 4). This has been proven over and over by Dr. Floyd Toole, Todd Welti, and their associates at the National Research Council of Canada and Harmon International. You should read A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II): Standing Waves & Room Modes .

[SierraMikeBravo]

^^^^

Well, I don't mean to taint the board with negative vibes. I seriously am trying to help. I don't mind the criticism. I was once a skeptic as well. I mean no disrespect to anyone on the board. Perhaps I lack a little tact, but I have a tendency to call a black shoe black.

Big Daddy,

I have uploaded this for your's and others perusal. Feel free to ask questions. If you have questions regarding physics, I'll do what I can to help, but I also don't have all day to type, and I am not a PhD either...but I do have a physical science degree. This graph shows that you can indeed have uniform response for multiple seats in the low frequency. This was done just last week for a friend of mine's large theater I am calibrating. The peaks are all within 3 dB which is not audible. This took me two days to arrive at, but it can be done. Each line represents a seat. This was done with two subwoofers. I am familiar with Toole's work. I have read his book and papers. I cannot take full credit for this placement design. A friend of mine, who has a Masters in Acoustical Engineering and did his thesis on modal waves, tipped me off on this placement configuration...works like a champ. Keep in mind, this is before parametric EQ...and there is a lot more going on here than I have given in the details.

[Big Daddy]

This is the performance of the 4 subwoofers in my HT room after I equalized them. Recently, I built risers for all 4 subwoofers and their performance improved significantly. I had to equalize them again. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the new graph, but I can tell you that the sound is unbelievably good and deep.

[billt928]

What is it with audiophiles and Bose?

Bose has a very wide range of products. I think the point here is generally the opinions of audiophiles with first-hand experience/an actual review of a product is more valuable than a sea of circle-jo negative comments and accusations.

Some of the above observations seem informed, but its also nice to get actual reviews and well rounded comparisons, imho. I'm all for the wisdom of crowds, but too often it seems mob mentality takes precedence.

If you don't like Bose products, fine: post some cogent arguments on what the problem is. But if you just want to make cheap jabs at people, consider this: in 50 years, your grandchildren may be reading your comments in a college class entitled "Stupidity 101: How the Internet turns people into morons". because brilliant and witty declaration like this.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Since everyone else already provided the proof, all I have to add to this conversation is...

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

BOSE BLOWS!!!

With reading some of your Signature resume, A few should rethink there bashing theroy about the bose bass module, just about everyone uses a sub with their full range towers because many do not go below 40Hz, Sounds a lot like why many of you bash bose. what if everytime you posted about your brand-x tower speaker someone posted something like this because you needed a sub to help your towers to get below 40Hz.

What if all the members on this forum that have spent over $5k+ just for the L+R speakers bashed you for buying the big box store brands.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by billt928

What is it with audiophiles and Bose?

This is all that is needed in response to that:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

[aramis109]

This thread needs some mod help. It should be separated into two threads. I can't handle two stupid discussions in one thread. It's too much for my tiny mind.

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by billt928

With reading some of your Signature resume, A few should rethink there bashing theroy about the bose bass module, just about everyone uses a sub with their full range towers because many do not go below 40Hz, Sounds a lot like why many of you bash bose. what if everytime you posted about your brand-x tower speaker someone posted something like this because you needed a sub to help your towers to get below 40Hz.

The argument about the bass module is not that Bose requires you to have a subwoofer, since I would wager 95% of people use a sub in HT applications, it's that their bass module doesn't go below 45hz, so it isn't even a subwoofer, leaving out 25hz of the audible spectrum. The other issue with their bass module and speakers is that from 80hz-200hz (I think that's the range, I'm fuzzy as I haven't read the measurements in a while), there is literally no sound being produced. That's a lot of mid-bass that is completely ignored due to a bad crossover design and implementation.

[got rice]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

This is the reason you don't see many home theater speaker manufacturer's producing towers. No need for them. All you are paying for is cabinet...nothing in additional performance. I honestly recommend bookshelf speakers and a good sub.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

but I will say it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the speakers are full range or not. It has to do with placement.

From another post:

Crossing over your speakers at less than 80 Hz is not a good idea unless you have the capability of placing your speakers more than 4 feet from the front wall. In lieu of placement flexibility, I recommend in-walls! Again, for the reasons of physics.
.

SMB,
This digression of thinking is somewhat puzzling. I simply made a statement about my personal opinion of how Def Techs sounded. This would be my choice of the two which were presented. You chime in and give my a bunch of blah,blah blah, of how tower speakers are useless and a waste of money because of the "physics" involved and how you would recommend bookshelves for the front stage L/C/R.

Then your point shifts from the type of speaker, to the placement of the speaker and how this is what is important. And you continiue to regurgitate a bunch of blah,blah,blah,(from college books,proffessors class)and recommend "in wall speakers" in lieu of placement flexibility.

So, is it safe to say, your point is, in wall speakers have a clear advantage over towers, due to the placement flexibility, for the frontstage?

I'll start off with this. All things being equal, room size, equipment, and acoustic treatments, and eliminating the monetary value. The best towers will outperform the best in walls all day. Your first argument of bookshelves had more validity than the inwall suggestion. In walls are primarily used for the surround application. Convenience of placement and aesthetics are the underlying benefits of in walls.

By mounting the driver flush to the wall you are compormising the "subjective depth" of the sound stage, due to the limitation of cabinet space or lack there of. The wall itself is not going to offer the sort of vibration resistance common to a handcrafted cabinet made for towers.

This simple graph "your friend" prepared is pretty good, however it is not from your own experience. I suggest you develope your own thesis to validate any opinions you have. I do not have a "Physical Science" degree, however I did take physical science in the 6th grade and AP physics as a senior. While my backgound is business oriented( Bachelors/Masters in Accounting U of F) I do have an understanding in the study of physical science.

Bottom line, towers dominate in walls in every category of sound reproduction.

[billt928]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

This is all that is needed in response to that:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

With statments like this from that website

Considering the large emphasis on marketing that Bose places on its products as well as the ostentatious boasting of "innovation" and "performance", I am curious as to why none, count them: ZERO, of their speakers are THX-certified. George Lucas offers certification to any product from any company willing to undergo the scrutiny of his tests. I'm sure Dr. Amar Bose has brought in many Bose speakers to the Skywalker Ranch for certification only to have them rejected time and time again. I am no fan of THX-Certification myself; However, no one can deny that it is perhaps the singly most powerful marketing tool in the entire industry. One tool that Dr. Bose would not have overlooked, but again, one that he could not obtain for himself.

I consider this more of bias opinion and the authors conjecture. It seems he knows nothing about the THX certification and how its done. A good example of what this means these days is that its Monster Cable zip cord speaker wires are THX rated and Monster pays THX for the right to use that logo

Or even the other site that many bose bashers use in there defense by Perry Marshall We have even more of bias opinion and the authors conjecture. This is a guy that claims to have designed cutting edge speakers at Jensen (When was the last time you see or wanted them? and when were they ever considered cutting edge) and then he makes this statment:

For the last seven years, I've been away from the engineering side and in the profession of sales and marketing. During my first two years in sales, I had the exquisite privilege of living on baloney sandwiches and Ramen soup. Things started to turn around for me when I got through my thick head something Bose clearly understands and has understood for many years:

I have doubts about this guys claim as an engineering turned salesman and his claims.


Just because its on the world wide web does not mean its true. We all know boes over charges, do you realy think every manufacture does not do that. do you realy think it cost polk $1500 more to produce the LSI line vs the RT line or it cost Martin Logan $15k to produce the Summit X line or Wilson Audio $24k to build a pair of Watt Puppies, Bose is not the only one doing it.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by billt928

[I]Considering the large emphasis on marketing that Bose places on its products as well as the ostentatious boasting of "innovation" and "performance", I am curious as to why none, count them: ZERO, of their speakers are THX-certified. George Lucas offers certification to any product from any company willing to undergo the scrutiny of his tests.

And willing to "PAY" for the right to be THX certified.......... There are many very capable, and well respected speakers out there that would certainly be capable of being "THX WORTHY" yet they don't feel the need to pay for that right....

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by billt928

What is it with audiophiles and Bose? If you don't like Bose products, fine: post some cogent arguments on what the problem is.

Okay, I did that with my link to a very detailed review/evaluation of the Acoutimass crap being peddled as "high-end" audio gear by the marketing company that is BOSE (and what is cogent?). Your response was:

Originally Posted by billt928

I consider this more of bias opinion and the authors conjecture.

I have doubts about this guys claim as an engineering turned salesman and his claims.

Just because its on the world wide web does not mean its true.

Why don't you post some technical reviews and evaluations proving this article incorrect instead of going with the "because I don't believe it" argument? I have no doubt that most manufacturers overcharge to some degree, but companies like BOSE and Monster take it to the extreme by making false claims and using fancy marketing techniques to sucker-in the uninformed masses. As a capitallist, I applaud their business models (next best thing to printing money), but as an informed consumer I despise how they exploit the ignorance of J6P.

[billt928]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Okay, I did that with my link to a very detailed review/evaluation of the Acoutimass crap being peddled as "high-end" audio gear by the marketing company that is BOSE (and what is cogent?). Your response was:

Why don't you post some technical reviews and evaluations proving this article incorrect instead of going with the "because I don't believe it" argument? I have no doubt that most manufacturers overcharge to some degree, but companies like BOSE and Monster take it to the extreme by making false claims and using fancy marketing techniques to sucker-in the uninformed masses. As a capitallist, I applaud their business models (next best thing to printing money), but as an informed consumer I despise how they exploit the ignorance of J6P.

what I'm saying is I'm not buying the information on those sites is because there is no hard proof of any thing other than what the author thinks about Bose

He claims they can not pass thx certification process, show me proof they even tried, Bring hard science/data and published fact from a reputable company debunking Bose with hard repeatable data. Without that it's just the authors bias opinion and the authors conjecture in my book.

I'm not defending Bose, too often it seems mob mentality on this site takes precedence by self proclaimed AV experts on this site and the best information they can bring to the post is "BOSE BLOWS!!!". Do we realy need that kind of post. We do not need to bash every time someone post a thread with Bose or Monster in the title.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by billt928

I'm not defending Bose, too often it seems mob mentality on this site takes precedence by self proclaimed AV experts on this site and the best information they can bring to the post is "BOSE BLOWS!!!". Do we realy need that kind of post. We do not need to bash every time someone post a thread with Bose or Monster in the title.

I agree that the "BOSE blows" comments, and bashing for the sake of bashing gets a little old and tiresome. But we also don't need folks defending them without some type of valid defense (okay, you aren't defending them...). As for THX certification, I'd say that with an 80Hz frequency gap (midrange loss) and the inability to produce bass <46Hz in the tested Acoustimass system, they'd be hard-press to achieve it even if they elected to pay for the opportunity. Mind you, I have no idea what the THX qualifications are. Regardless, the system does not cover the audible spectrum accurately, and for that kind of $$ it should.

What's funny (though not surprising) is that this thread was started with questions about the 901 series speakers, which really are not too bad.

[Driver_King]

Originally Posted by billt928

With reading some of your Signature resume, A few should rethink there bashing theroy about the bose bass module, just about everyone uses a sub with their full range towers because many do not go below 40Hz, Sounds a lot like why many of you bash bose. what if everytime you posted about your brand-x tower speaker someone posted something like this because you needed a sub to help your towers to get below 40Hz.

What if all the members on this forum that have spent over $5k+ just for the L+R speakers bashed you for buying the big box store brands.

The issue was not about how low tower speakers can go. My Polk's are rated to go down to 16hz. I still own two subwoofers that are in my bedroom home theater. Yes, many towers do not go down to 40hz. The issue was that generally if your front speakers do not have good bass extension (the little Bose cubes have virtually none, if any), you make up for it with a subwoofer. Their bass module not only doesn't go down to infrasonic levels, but it also goes up to 200hz+ where you will hear voices coming from the Bass Module. That and there is a frequency gap between the cube speakers and the Bass Module. That was just one major issue that can be raised about the Bose Home Theater systems. Also, nobody was talking about Bose's tower speakers (or lack thereof). The argument you tried to make there about needing a subwoofer for towers since they do not go that low is irrelevant. We were talking about the Bose HTIB systems.