Speaker Placement and boundary problems

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Lil' Louie

Anytime you are up in my area, let me know. I'd be more than happy to have you come and do some bass measurements. For me, having two subs stacked has me very pleased with the results from my listening area. I'm not going to say that this WILL work for anyone else, but it doesn't hurt to give it a shot. Have you tried it?

I have tried it. In a great many rooms aside from mine. That is how I come to the conclusions I do. You do get a great proximity loading from having two bass drivers in close proximity to each other, but once you get out into the room, you have far too many hot and dead spots to make this placement effective for more than one listening position.

It is always easy to please ourselves, we can compromise on anything, and we can justify anything. I always try to make my hometheaters sound good for not just myself, but anyone who walks into them. I can make my ears like anything, any placement that I desire. We get used to sound like that whether it is truely good, or not.

[Aerodude73]

I have a fairly small room and have the RM6750 5.1 system, but have noticed the Sub "at times" coming in and out (?). I've picked it up, moved it an Inch or 2 or more, and it seemed to work, then last nite, same problem came back. Not sure why, all the connections are secure. Wondering if I might have to take it back (bought it at Tweeter, Etc., have full warranty, still under 1 yr old system anyway), but in the meantime...

Have also been thinking about getting a slightly larger Sub -- as noted, my room is not Large (11x14 or so, I sit about 8.5' from the TV), and have the sub to the right of the TV itself, a few feet away, just next to the front Left surround (on a stand of course) --- but, the Best Buy Black Friday ad (real hopefully) listed the PSW10 at $99, while Amazon has it for $126, and the PSW12 at $253 or so, but Im thinking if I upgrade, the PSW12 will be too much speaker---plus that price is too much anyway!

Thoughts people? I'm open to any/all suggestions. You guys/gals rock!

(or, I could maybe keep the smaller one on the Left side maybe?---Once, of course, I figure why it "cuts out" at times---and use the Dual Subs, but, that might be too much for the size room)

[SpikesBluBlooded]

Wow, love this thread! A ton of great information, and I can't wait to start re-aligning my HT room (read: family room) for a better movie experience. Kudos to the OP!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by SpikesBluBlooded

Wow, love this thread! A ton of great information, and I can't wait to start re-aligning my HT room (read: family room) for a better movie experience. Kudos to the OP!

Why, thank you

[dharma14]

Here is my bedroom right now. I'm getting these speakers http://www.htd.com/cabinet-speakers/...three-speakers. Where should I set all my speakers and sub?

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I did have one more thought about how I could make 7.1 work in my room though.



Between each of the candle holders and the emblem, I could hang a section of my home made acoustical tiles; and then mount my S1's to them and angle them down as sharply as I can. I could get away with moving my sofa up probably about 2-3 ft before I really start to hurt the end viewing angles of my sofa. I could hide the wiring behind my tiles.

I hope that wasn't too convoluted or time consuming...... and if anyone has any suggestions for better placement or sound treatment locations absolutely share.

You do have an odd shaped room and you did a great job with what you have. Your idea sounds like a good one, but I don't think moving your sofa 2-3 feet is necessary. I'm not the greatest with speaker placement, but if you move your S1's as you said the effect would be much much better then where they are now.

Also if you remember in another thread, someone stated that you can't matrix 5.1 - 7.1 with the 606

I read the manual and it says you can.
606 5.1 - 7.1 channel

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by HAMP

You do have an odd shaped room and you did a great job with what you have. Your idea sounds like a good one, but I don't think moving your sofa 2-3 feet is necessary. I'm not the greatest with speaker placement, but if you move your S1's as you said the effect would be much much better then where they are now.

Also if you remember in another thread, someone stated that you can't matrix 5.1 - 7.1 with the 606

I read the manual and it says you can.
606 5.1 - 7.1 channel

True you can matrix out Dolby and PLXII, but not PCM from blu's; which I am fine with. I really didn't notice a difference between 5.1 & 7.1 in my room. I'm going to give this speaker placement a try, and if I still don't see a difference I am going back to 5.1 and bi-amp my fronts again

[HAMP]

I have changed my front speakers to the outside of my subs like in the drawing. I havn't updated the pics in the Gal. yet.



My Doorways made my room oddshape. I had to put my surrounds up high and point them down toward the center.

[Scooby Blu]

Well done ! Thanks for all the posts !

[Sir Terrence]

Aiming the surrounds downward is great for the movie theater where audience coverage is necessary, and with so many surrounds and the fact that we sit so far away from them, is a must.

At home aiming them towards the listening position changes the direct to reflection ratio, that it actually reduces the spaciousness you are supposed to hear in the surrounds. It makes them too direct as source. That is not what you want in the surrounds. You want a more diffused sound, not a direct sound. Also aiming the surrounds directly at the listening position increases the chance that you will have HRT effects that position things in wrong places, at least to the ears.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Aiming the surrounds downward is great for the movie theater where audience coverage is necessary, and with so many surrounds and the fact that we sit so far away from them, is a must.

At home aiming them towards the listening position changes the direct to reflection ratio, that it actually reduces the spaciousness you are supposed to hear in the surrounds. It makes them too direct as source. That is not what you want in the surrounds. You want a more diffused sound, not a direct sound. Also aiming the surrounds directly at the listening position increases the chance that you will have HRT effects that position things in wrong places, at least to the ears.

So would you suggest trying my rear surrounds behind and over the sofa, while pulling the sofa as far off the wall as I can without harming my viewing angles? Or just stick with 5.1 in my shallow room?

[SpikesBluBlooded]

Originally Posted by prerich

Why, thank you

You're quite welcome! This is just one of the many reasons why I love this website so much! I recommend it to everyone when they tell me they've finally joined the Blu revolution...

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Aiming the surrounds downward is great for the movie theater where audience coverage is necessary, and with so many surrounds and the fact that we sit so far away from them, is a must.

At home aiming them towards the listening position changes the direct to reflection ratio, that it actually reduces the spaciousness you are supposed to hear in the surrounds. It makes them too direct as source. That is not what you want in the surrounds. You want a more diffused sound, not a direct sound. Also aiming the surrounds directly at the listening position increases the chance that you will have HRT effects that position things in wrong places, at least to the ears.

By doing this at home isn't it about same as the theater by covering a wider area or making the sweet spot larger?

or if the speakers are lower and the person is sitting right next to the right surround, it would seem that the effect from the left isn't the same since the right speaker is so close and loud.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

So would you suggest trying my rear surrounds behind and over the sofa, while pulling the sofa as far off the wall as I can without harming my viewing angles? Or just stick with 5.1 in my shallow room?

If it were me, I would stick with 5.1. 7.1 does not work well in all rooms. It can make some rooms worse sounding rather than enhance. My room is a prime example of that. Adding two rear center speakers muddied up the overall surround effect by introducing HTR effects that made thing panned to the center rear appear like it was in front of me. Removing the rear center speakers cleaned up that problem, and sitting equidistant between my surrounds actually gives a phantom 7.1 effect without the physical speaker.

7.1 was orginally designed to plug a hole in the rear of a surround field. If your room is narrow, you will not have a hole, as your side surrounds do a nice job of "joining" the surround field together. So 7.1 is not always needed.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by HAMP

By doing this at home isn't it about same as the theater by covering a wider area or making the sweet spot larger?

No, it does not. Remember, you are sitting(if you sit in the center of the theater) a good 30-40ft away from the speakers, so you want a little more directness because you have 12 speakers instead of just two. By aiming them downward, you actually decrease the size of the sweet spot by creating a more localizing sonic picture with them aimed downward.

or if the speakers are lower and the person is sitting right next to the right surround, it would seem that the effect from the left isn't the same since the right speaker is so close and loud.

I didn't say lower them, I said aiming them was a problem. You keep your surrounds at least 2-3ft above your head from a seated position, facing straight(not down) at let the reflections widen the sweet spot.

[Big Daddy]

Sir Terrence is correct. Listen to his advice.

The surround speakers should not distract your attention away from the movie. They should help to draw you into the film. This is what surround speakers should do. Surround speakers are intended to reproduce ambient effects like explosions, gunfights, the hum of a spaceship, or crickets at night so they sound like they are coming from everywhere in the room — not just where your speakers are located. That is the main reason why most people prefer bipolar or dipolar surround speakers instead of direct-radiating surround speakers in a small home theater room.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I have changed my front speakers to the outside of my subs like in the drawing. I havn't updated the pics in the Gal. yet.

My Doorways made my room oddshape. I had to put my surrounds up high and point them down toward the center.

Well done Hamp!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

No, it does not. Remember, you are sitting(if you sit in the center of the theater) a good 30-40ft away from the speakers, so you want a little more directness because you have 12 speakers instead of just two. By aiming them downward, you actually decrease the size of the sweet spot by creating a more localizing sonic picture with them aimed downward.



I didn't say lower them, I said aiming them was a problem. You keep your surrounds at least 2-3ft above your head from a seated position, facing straight(not down) at let the reflections widen the sweet spot.

And great advice Sir T. I would also like to bring up the use of direct vs bi/di-pole speakers. I know with a dipole the nulls should be at the ears of the listener (not in height - but the part of the speaker with no drivers should be pointed at the listening position). I have in effect turned one of my pairs of Def Techs into Dipoles vice Bipoles (I wired the rear drivers in reverse phase of the forward facing ones). I find that these type speakers provide a wider and more natural soundfiled and allow for higher placement vs. the direct speaker method. I believe this is why Dipoles where inmployed in HT - because most people would not have the room to deploy 12+ rear channels. I tend to think that direct radiating speakers in the rear may offer sonic pleasure to the main listener but to others seated in less than optimum places - will suffer (IMHO). Critical speaker placement is very necessary with Direct radiating speakers - especially in the rear.

Question T, because of all of the discrete channel information have we negated or ignored the value of bipole or dipole speakers exclusively in the the rear channels? I remember in the days of prologic (before specialized speakers for surround in the home market) I used to imploy direct radiating speakers and point them at the ceiling to difuse them. I will thank Bose for one thing - I remember using a pair of 301's in an early surround system that produced a believable effects channel that didn't beam at me - but at that time surround channels were not discrete. However, I can still see the benifit of using Bipoles or Dipole speakers. What's your take on this (For you know much more than I ).

[prerich]

Originally Posted by dharma14

Here is my bedroom right now. I'm getting these speakers http://www.htd.com/cabinet-speakers/...three-speakers. Where should I set all my speakers and sub?

Your room is very difficult due to your seating area and arrangments. Is the recliner your main listening/viewing position?

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

I have tried it. In a great many rooms aside from mine. That is how I come to the conclusions I do. You do get a great proximity loading from having two bass drivers in close proximity to each other, but once you get out into the room, you have far too many hot and dead spots to make this placement effective for more than one listening position.

It is always easy to please ourselves, we can compromise on anything, and we can justify anything. I always try to make my hometheaters sound good for not just myself, but anyone who walks into them. I can make my ears like anything, any placement that I desire. We get used to sound like that whether it is truely good, or not.

Good to know you speak from experience. I do too; and, like I said, we have installed many home theaters where sub stacking yielded amazing results. In my Lounge, the bass sounds tight and deep whether someone sits in the sweet spot or on swivel chairs in the back. For me, two subs stacked in the same corner is the way to go; and, anyone who comes into my Lounge agrees. I really can't thank Ken of M&K enough for recommending it. Again, it may not work for everyone; but, the fun part of this hobby is experimenting.