Death Wish 2 (1982) / Death Wish 3 (1985) / Death Wish 4: The Crackdown (1987)

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by Markgway

Phelings... you're wasting your time.

If people don't want to listen to the truth there's not much more you can do.

truth and opinion are subjective on this forum....

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by Markgway

Phelings is spot on in his assessment here.

The R-rated version is not THE theatrical cut it's A theatrical cut. Just as the BBFC butchered version was A theatrical cut for the UK.

THE theatrical cut (i.e. the one approved for theatrical release by Michael Winner) was released in Europe without cuts.

Neither the eccentricities of local censorship (DW2 was banned in Australia for a while... now it's fully uncut on DVD) nor the preference of any particular viewer should bear impact on what is proven fact.

Winner himself was furious about the extensive cuts made and left no doubt as to what he thought of the various hack jobs done on his work.

It's sad that in 2014 MGM refuse to right that wrong.

The uncut version showed on cable in the US for a few years before the US DVD release, making it all the more stranger that MGM did not use it.
I speculate that they feared buyer blow-back in the same vein as what happened with Swamp Thing in the US. Regardless, I find it rather hypocritical to complain about the film in the uncut form, like it is OK as long as it is in abbreviated form.

[darkness2918]

Originally Posted by Brett C

The uncut version showed on cable in the US for a few years before the US DVD release, making it all the more stranger that MGM did not use it.
I speculate that they feared buyer blow-back in the same vein as what happened with Swamp Thing in the US. Regardless, I find it rather hypocritical to complain about the film in the uncut form, like it is OK as long as it is in abbreviated form.

I know about the DWII thing, but what happened with Swamp Thing in the US?

[jmb1381]

Originally Posted by darkness2918

I know about the DWII thing, but what happened with Swamp Thing in the US?

It was originally released in the international version, which contained more nudity. It was recalled not long after release.

[DasRetroKid]

Originally Posted by jmb1381

It was originally released in the international version, which contained more nudity. It was recalled not long after release.

With regards to DWII: I've seen both the uncut version and also seen / own the US version. I personally prefer the uncut version as that is what the director intended for us to experience.

IMO the added rape footage of the maid does nothing to add to the scene or your hate for the villains (so I don't care that it's not on the US release), the footage of Kersey's daughter being raped I believe does. It's nowhere near as bad as the maid scene but pushes your hate for the villains that much further that Kersey's revenge feels all the more gratifying for the viewer. Yes, it's a rape scene, but I feel the directors intent was for the viewer to truly find the villains despicable.

If the cut footage on the US discs were not rape scenes, I think all fans of the film would be in agreement that the US disc is "incomplete." Because of the sensitive nature of the footage I believe that is why it's an issue of debate.

And just so no one thinks my morals are in question here, I never knew Marina Sirtis who I find beautiful (ST:TNG) had done a nude scene. I watch DWIII for the first time and lo and behold there she is, nude. However the scene is a rape scene and so I did not find myself oogling her or anything as it just feels wrong.

[Markgway]

Marina Sirtis appears topless in Winner's The Wicked Lady during the infamous whip fight with Faye Dunaway.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

truth and opinion are subjective on this forum....

What can I say to that? It's not my opinion. I don't LIKE the longer rape scene. If it hadn't been shot I wouldn't care. But it was and it's what the director wanted. Blame him!

There seems to be a curious view (from some) on this forum that the American theatrical release of a film is THE release and to hell with everyone else. So DW2 was released uncut in MOST European countries? Oh, that doesn't count.

[phelings]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

It was never in any version that I saw...

I do not consider this release to be an edited/censored print...

Oh well that's ok then - the rest of the world must be wrong then
The rape scene was present in all versions in 1982 , its just that the US one was cut to pieces.

But if you want to lie to yourself and ignore the truth that everybody except the US had the uncut version just to convince yourself that the US Blu of DW 2 wasn't money down the drain that's your loss.

Still you could always justify it by naming all those other Blurays for which buyers are happy to pay for censored versions just because that was how it was first seen in the US - oh hang on . You can't because there aren't any

[phelings]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

truth and opinion are subjective on this forum....

There's nothing subjective about the truth.
The fact is that DW2 uncut is the correct version.

The US version is cut and not as intended by the director.
That's the plain truth.
What you have is the US Theatrical Version .

But if your delusion makes you think your DW2 Blu was a worthwhile purchase then so be it.

Meanwhile , the rest of us will continue to enjoy watching films uncut as intended by the directors , even low budget exploitation like Death Wish 2 so we'll stick with our dvd's of that until a proper Bluray appears somewhere

Is this a unique thread on this forum in that it includes posts from people saying why a censored version of a movie is the preferable one ?
I don't recall seeing a thread on any forum anywhere ever where a local censored release gets the thumbs up despite uncut versions being available everywhere else in the world

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by phelings

There's nothing subjective about the truth.
The fact is that DW2 uncut is the correct version.

The US version is cut and not as intended by the director.
That's the plain truth.

But if your delusion makes you think your DW2 Blu was a worthwhile purchase then so be it.

Meanwhile , the rest of us will continue to enjoy watching films uncut as intended by the directors , even low budget exploitation like Death Wish 2 so we'll stick with our dvd's of that until a proper Bluray appears somewhere

Is this a unique thread on this forum in that it includes posts from people saying why a censored version of a movie is the preferable one ?
I don't recall seeing a thread on any forum anywhere ever where a local censored released gets the thumbs up despite uncut versions being available everywhere else in the world

don't you guys get the obvious? The US version is the one that's been around forever... it's the version that everybody has seen for years....

there are frickin' tons of movies that have different cuts for foreign markets, they have for decades. Why arent you all having a heart attack about all of those films? I guess 70% of US films are "censored" by your definition....

the whole arguement is absurd.....

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by phelings

There's nothing subjective about the truth.
The fact is that DW2 uncut is the correct version.

The US version is cut and not as intended by the director.
That's the plain truth.
What you have is the US Theatrical Version .

But if your delusion makes you think your DW2 Blu was a worthwhile purchase then so be it.

Meanwhile , the rest of us will continue to enjoy watching films uncut as intended by the directors , even low budget exploitation like Death Wish 2 so we'll stick with our dvd's of that until a proper Bluray appears somewhere

Is this a unique thread on this forum in that it includes posts from people saying why a censored version of a movie is the preferable one ?
I don't recall seeing a thread on any forum anywhere ever where a local censored release gets the thumbs up despite uncut versions being available everywhere else in the world

thank you for calling me delusional.... you just sit back and enjoy watching your rape scenes

[phelings]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

don't you guys get the obvious? The US version is the one that's been around forever... it's the version that everybody has seen for years....



the whole arguement is absurd.....

It's your argument that is absurd for not noticing that "the US version is the one that's been around forever " but only in the US.

As you say , there are alternate versions / cuts/ directorial choices for many films around the world but for this one there isn't so that logic does not apply.

There is one version of DW2 and that's the uncut one.
The US decided to accept CENSOR cuts which have prevailed for 30 years.

Variant versions of movies are accepted in different countries but one thing that is not accepted today are CENSOR cuts .
Even in the UK where hundreds of films were subject to censor cuts back in the 60's , 70's and 80's acceptance of censor cuts is over.
There are dozens of titles released in the last 2 or 3 years like Mark of the Devil , Caligula, Body Double , Scarface - countless others- where the theatrical version was censored as would the initial home video releases and even some early dvd releases.
But all distributors know that if they release any of these movies with censor cuts on Bluray nobody will buy them.

We don't say - "ok , we can tolerate 11 minutes missing from House by the Cemetery - after all that was how it appeared in the cinema and on video so why on earth would we want an uncut Bluray"?

See my point ?
Censor cuts and Bluray collecting do not mix .
With the exception of DW2 are there any other movies on Bluray for which collectors have knowingly shelled out for a censored version when a complete version is available elsewhere.
In my experience it doesn't happen.

Sorry for calling you delusional - but if you really believe your DW2 version is not censored , delusional is what you are . I suppose "incorrect" sounds more polite but the former term seems more apt as you sound as if you are trying to convince yourself your DW2 disc is ok because you don't want to admit that really you are disappointed that the DW series remains imperfect on Bluray.

I'm disappointed too . I have the other 4 on Blu but having had DW2 uncut on dvd for over a decade I can't go back to the cut version

[jjdpw50]

MGM HD ran it recently so I finally saw it. The maid scene was a little much and not necessary imo. The daughter's rape at least showed Kersey's need for revenge no matter what the cost. Like losing his fiance and the cop from NY following him.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by phelings

It's your argument that is absurd for not noticing that "the US version is the one that's been around forever " but only in the US.

As you say , there are alternate versions / cuts/ directorial choices for many films around the world but for this one there isn't so that logic does not apply.

There is one version of DW2 and that's the uncut one.
The US decided to accept CENSOR cuts which have prevailed for 30 years.

Variant versions of movies are accepted in different countries but one thing that is not accepted today are CENSOR cuts .
Even in the UK where hundreds of films were subject to censor cuts back in the 60's , 70's and 80's acceptance of censor cuts is over.
There are dozens of titles released in the last 2 or 3 years like Mark of the Devil , Caligula, Body Double , Scarface - countless others- where the theatrical version was censored as would the initial home video releases and even some early dvd releases.
But all distributors know that if they release any of these movies with censor cuts on Bluray nobody will buy them.

We don't say - "ok , we can tolerate 11 minutes missing from House by the Cemetery - after all that was how it appeared in the cinema and on video so why on earth would we want an uncut Bluray"?

See my point ?
Censor cuts and Bluray collecting do not mix .
With the exception of DW2 are there any other movies on Bluray for which collectors have knowingly shelled out for a censored version when a complete version is available elsewhere.
In my experience it doesn't happen.

Sorry for calling you delusional - but if you really believe your DW2 version is not censored , delusional is what you are . I suppose "incorrect" sounds more polite but the former term seems more apt as you sound as if you are trying to convince yourself your DW2 disc is ok because you don't want to admit that really you are disappointed that the DW series remains imperfect on Bluray.

I'm disappointed too . I have the other 4 on Blu but having had DW2 uncut on dvd for over a decade I can't go back to the cut version

I see your point. I guess the thing here is that in this particular film, it doesn't bother me in the slightest to have this "cut" version. The reason, of course, is because it's something offensive and I actually prefer a more sanitized version.

If it was scenes with Bronson blasting the bad guys in more detail, I would have a much stronger reaction to it. Either way, I love the DEATH WISH films and am a big fan of Bronson. I would never pass on owning these films based on something missing from the print, especially when the pricepoints are so cheap. If another version came around later, i would double dip....

[phelings]

Originally Posted by jjdpw50

MGM HD ran it recently so I finally saw it. The maid scene was a little much and not necessary imo. The daughter's rape at least showed Kersey's need for revenge no matter what the cost. Like losing his fiance and the cop from NY following him.

There's no doubt the complete maid scene is OTT , gratuitous and overlong which is why both the UK and US censored versions are able to get the message across with the scene incomplete , but as with I Spit On Your Grave I think the film should be shown as shot .
Cutting rape scenes from a rape/revenge movie is like cutting the bloodletting from a Romero zombie film.

Originally Posted by AKORIS

I see your point. I guess the thing here is that in this particular film, it doesn't bother me in the slightest to have this "cut" version. The reason, of course, is because it's something offensive and I actually prefer a more sanitized version.

I wish you'd said that in the first place , it would have saved a lot of posts.
I can understand your point about the scene being difficult to watch and yes , the message is there even when the scene is shortened.

The argument here was whether the disc was the uncut directors version which it isn't but clearly it's a version you prefer which is fair enough.

[DasRetroKid]

Most Blu Ray collectors are also fans of film preservation and thus why I think a lot of people here get a little confused when someone prefers a censored version of a film.

Obviously the subject matter with what's cut in DWII is of a highly sensitive nature but I feel it's necessary (tho I agree the maid scene is too much as well) to reach the directors goal. To get you to hate those thugs just as much as Kersey does.

I've seen films where there are very offensive scenes just for the hell of it and do nothing to further push the film towards its objective. In those cases I think it's just dumb. Then there are others where I felt it was almost too much, but warranted in order to feel what the director intended. "I Saw the Devil" is a great example of this. Some of the scenes in that film are very hard to watch, but the goal is the same. For you to hate the villain just as much as the good guy where you validate his methods for revenge.

At the end of the day, it's just a movie and I don't think that anyone who's a fan of DWII actually condones real rape.

[phelings]

Originally Posted by DasRetroKid

Most Blu Ray collectors are also fans of film preservation and thus why I think a lot of people here get a little confused when someone prefers a censored version of a film.

.

Are there actually any other movies where censored versions are on Bluray - other than being an alternate version of the main feature?

I feel DW2 might be unique . And had a studio like Shout , Anchor Bay , Blue Underground etc released it they would not even have considered releasing anything other than the uncut version

It's also lazy or shortsighted for MGM to release the cut version . They're not obligated to release it in the R version and they've certainly done themselves out of a lot of sales by not going unrated

[DasRetroKid]

Originally Posted by phelings

Are there actually any other movies where censored versions are on Bluray - other than being an alternate version of the main feature?

Looks like the US Blu Ray of "The Raid 2" contains only the censored R rated version (same as shown in US theaters), while everyone else got the uncensored version.

Thankfully this seems to be an extremely rare occurrence with Blu Ray.

[phelings]

Originally Posted by DasRetroKid

Looks like the US Blu Ray of "The Raid 2" contains only the censored R rated version (same as shown in US theaters), while everyone else got the uncensored version.

Thankfully this seems to be an extremely rare occurrence with Blu Ray.

Here in the UK there have been a few titles where the theatrical version cut for a lower rating appears on dvd while the uncut version gets an exclusive on Blu.

One title , the Daniel Radlciffe chiller The Woman In Black remains only available here in its adjusted 12 version on Blu despite the uncut 15 version getting classified too . I had to get the US disc of that one

[drsyn71]

I'm pretty simplistic in my thoughts regarding movies. If I'm going to watch and or buy a movie and invest my time and money I want to see as much of the movie as I can. That means I want to see as many scenes or minutes of the film as I can and I want to see as much of the actual filmed image as I can. In regards to the latter, I mean I want to see the movie "open matte" if it's possible versus the "matted" theatrically projected image. I'll take seeing a boom mike hanging down here or there.

As far a Death Wish II, I haven't bought any of the DVD or Blu releases here in the U.S. Back in the mid 2000s, I picked up the Australian PAL DVD so I would have the "uncut" or "international" version or whatever you want to call it. Arguing over whose country has the "correct" or "uncut" version of the movie seems pointless.

For years I was watching one of my favorite movies, HIGHLANDER not knowing that there was an awesome WWII scene I was missing. It's the "Whatever you say Jack, you're the Master Race!" scene where Connor first meets Rachel where Connor rises after being shot by a german soldier. So I was pissed it was "cut" for the U.S. release. I WANT that scene. Now I have it.

What about the early U.S. home video releases of Mad Max where Mel's voice was dubbed? Years later did we finally get to hear the originally recorded (totally understandable) audio.

Blade Runner. How many cuts do we have of that now? Star Wars. I could go on and on.