Can Someone Explain What "Fit to Screen: AUTO" Does on Samsungs?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Oh...so the panel may IGNORE overscan: off settings when standard definition discs are played from the OPPO? I didn't know that overscan was sometimes dependent on resolution; should I try a Blu-ray with Fit to Screen on AUTO and see what happens?

Auto with BDs should be 1:1. To be honest you'd have to experiment with an SD test pattern to see what Auto does do, but as you're using it for different content and not going for 1:1 I' stick to On or Off.

The main thing to remember is that Auto is generally the best setting, until you run into issues, then you need to use On or Off.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

Auto with BDs should be 1:1. To be honest you'd have to experiment with an SD test pattern to see what Auto does do, but as you're using it for different content and not going for 1:1 I' stick to On or Off.

What do you mean "not going for 1:1" and that you'd "stick to on or off"? I want to indeed begin experimenting with getting myself weened off overscan and try to accept the perceived larger black areas on scope films...

The main thing to remember is that Auto is generally the best setting, until you run into issues, then you need to use On or Off.

I understand and always felt that way; it's just that I don't understand why the DVD last night still appeared to play with overscan even though I had AUTO selected for Fit to Screen...

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

What do you mean "not going for 1:1" and that you'd "stick to on or off"? I want to indeed begin experimenting with getting myself weened off overscan and try to accept the perceived larger black areas on scope films...

You've mentioned you prefer to use it with 1.85:1 and wider movies. It would be easier to leave it on or off. But honestly I'd just switch it on and get used to it.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

I understand and always felt that way; it's just that I don't understand why the DVD last night still appeared to play with overscan even though I had AUTO selected for Fit to Screen...

It's worth double checking while you're watching the movie itself. Switch between the three options. Try other DVDs too.

[IntelliVolume]

Well, here's a very interesting update on the whole Fit to Screen/overscan thing, Chip...

Remember when I was talking about those little green "pulsating squares" at the bottom of the Samsung on certain non-HD channels on my cable box? Well, last night as a test after all the talking we were doing about overscan, I turned on the cable box and tuned into the non-HD HBO channels that (mainly) exhibit these green pulsating areas, and I began to play with the Fit to Screen On, Off and Auto.

Lo and behold, when Fit to Screen was switched ON -- that is, eliminating overscan -- those channels showed a THICK GREEN LINE at the bottom of the screen, connected to a giant green square where I usually see the small ones. Obviously, this was "transmission garbage," but it was being hidden by the overscan -- however, when I put overscan back on (that is, I switched Fit to Screen back OFF), that green line and the giant square was covered up, reduced to just the small green square I have been seeing...

So, obviously, there IS some kind of transmission junk at the bottom of these stations' broadcasts being covered up by overscan -- but what I can't figure out is why the overscan won't cover the remainder of the small green area being seen as a square...is there nothing I can do about this but further zoom in on these channels to eliminate the square?

What do you make of this finding?

As I said, I never saw these green areas on my previous Sony SXRD display using the SAME cable box...

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

So, obviously, there IS some kind of transmission junk at the bottom of these stations' broadcasts being covered up by overscan -- but what I can't figure out is why the overscan won't cover the remainder of the small green area being seen as a square...is there nothing I can do about this but further zoom in on these channels to eliminate the square?

All you can do is use the Samsung's custom option to zoom in a little further. There might be an option in the service menu to adjust the overscan amount, but it's not something I'd recommend you'd fiddle around with.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

All you can do is use the Samsung's custom option to zoom in a little further. There might be an option in the service menu to adjust the overscan amount, but it's not something I'd recommend you'd fiddle around with.

Oh, I was talking about the cable box's remote -- using THAT to zoom in on those channels; I didn't even consider the Samsung's custom picture options...would these be able to be adjusted so that these images are zoomed in on even more permanently (without having to be adjusted every time I use the box)?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Oh, I was talking about the cable box's remote -- using THAT to zoom in on those channels; I didn't even consider the Samsung's custom picture options...would these be able to be adjusted so that these images are zoomed in on even more permanently (without having to be adjusted every time I use the box)?

Yes, that's what the custom setting is for.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

Yes, that's what the custom setting is for.

Thanks! I'll try that tonight and report back...

In the meantime, I will also consider fooling around with Fit to Screen with Blu-rays and DVDs...

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

In the meantime, I will also consider fooling around with Fit to Screen with Blu-rays and DVDs...

It's switch it On and forget about it and create a custom setting if you want to zoom-in with any wider than 16:9 content.

[IntelliVolume]

Okay Chip,

Went into the Custom area of the Picture Size menu and did what you suggested -- I blew the screen out a little to the right (+2 axis) to cover up the green square, and whattya know...it worked! The square is gone on those channels, and I thank you for that knowledge...

The thing is, I don't understand why this panel's overscan wasn't covering up these edges of the non-HD broadcasts like my previous Sony's was; unless, as you've alluded to, the Samsung is using a different amount of overscan that just isn't covering everything at the very outer edges...and, as you said, I could possibly get into the service menu to fool around with the overscan overrides, but it's not something I'd want to mess with.

The other thing I'm concerned about is the amount of picture that needed to be "blown out" in order to cover the transmission garbage -- I'm beginning to wonder if I should have just left the small flickering green square as-is (I don't really even watch the channels this happens on) so I didn't need to blow the image out at all; what do you think? Is it better to cover the transmission garbage up or leave it for the sake of not zooming in on the picture too much?

Additionally, I still don't understand why this isn't happening on any other cable box in my house -- I am using an old Phillips 4:3 "square" set in our "workout" room, which is connected to an HD box (though the TV isn't HD) and those non-HD HBO stations don't exhibit those green squares...nor does the 40" LG LCD that's in our bedroom. Is this because the overscan on these televisions are set a bit more "aggressively" than the Samsung in our living room?

The old Phillips 4:3 set in particular should be putting out a lot of overscan, no, because of its aspect ratio shape? Or am I not looking at this right?

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

It's switch it On and forget about it and create a custom setting if you want to zoom-in with any wider than 16:9 content.

I was referring to when I watch DVDs and Blu-rays via the Samsung's HDMI 2/BLU-RAY PLAYER input, which is set to Movie mode...should I just leave the picture setting for this input on Fit to Screen: ON so I know I'm getting the whole picture for films?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

The thing is, I don't understand why this panel's overscan wasn't covering up these edges of the non-HD broadcasts like my previous Sony's was; unless, as you've alluded to, the Samsung is using a different amount of overscan that just isn't covering everything at the very outer edges...and, as you said, I could possibly get into the service menu to fool around with the overscan overrides, but it's not something I'd want to mess with.

I don't think overscan is that big with modern sets, it's probably about 2.5-5%. The test pattern I posted would tell you precisely.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

The other thing I'm concerned about is the amount of picture that needed to be "blown out" in order to cover the transmission garbage -- I'm beginning to wonder if I should have just left the small flickering green square as-is (I don't really even watch the channels this happens on) so I didn't need to blow the image out at all; what do you think? Is it better to cover the transmission garbage up or leave it for the sake of not zooming in on the picture too much?

It's really depends on how much it bothers you, but you could just switch it on for the particular channel.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Additionally, I still don't understand why this isn't happening on any other cable box in my house -- I am using an old Phillips 4:3 "square" set in our "workout" room, which is connected to an HD box (though the TV isn't HD) and those non-HD HBO stations don't exhibit those green squares...nor does the 40" LG LCD that's in our bedroom. Is this because the overscan on these televisions are set a bit more "aggressively" than the Samsung in our living room?

It really just depends on the overscan on those displays.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

The old Phillips 4:3 set in particular should be putting out a lot of overscan, no, because of its aspect ratio shape? Or am I not looking at this right?

Is it a widescreen channel centre cropped for your 4:3? if it is then it would be well out of view!

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

I was referring to when I watch DVDs and Blu-rays via the Samsung's HDMI 2/BLU-RAY PLAYER input, which is set to Movie mode...should I just leave the picture setting for this input on Fit to Screen: ON so I know I'm getting the whole picture for films?

You can do some further testing with Auto, but On is fine for 1:1.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

I don't think overscan is that big with modern sets, it's probably about 2.5-5%. The test pattern I posted would tell you precisely.

I see. But it's still preferable to leave it OFF when watching films on Blu-ray and DVD, right?

It's really depends on how much it bothers you, but you could just switch it on for the particular channel.

True; but why is HBO exhibiting this "transmission noise" in the bottom edges of their standard definition transmissions? I mean, we're approaching 2019...why is there still "junk" in the outer edges of non-HD transmissions?

It really just depends on the overscan on those displays.

Is it a widescreen channel centre cropped for your 4:3? if it is then it would be well out of view!

Well, for this particular TV, I have the cable box set to "Standard 4:3" for the aspect ratio size, being that it isn't a widescreen display...would this mean those channels have been "center cropped"?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

I see. But it's still preferable to leave it OFF when watching films on Blu-ray and DVD, right?

Yes, it's preferable to leave it off, there isn't any need to use overscan with Blu-rays, but you may want to use it with the odd DVD (but I honestly wouldn't).

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

True; but why is HBO exhibiting this "transmission noise" in the bottom edges of their standard definition transmissions? I mean, we're approaching 2019...why is there still "junk" in the outer edges of non-HD transmissions?

Because broadcast providers probably don't care if a small percentage of viewers can see it.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Well, for this particular TV, I have the cable box set to "Standard 4:3" for the aspect ratio size, being that it isn't a widescreen display...would this mean those channels have been "center cropped"?

Yes, I would imagine it's a centre crop when you use Standard 4:3.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

You can do some further testing with Auto, but On is fine for 1:1.

Okay. Sat down to watch The Exorcist Blu-ray last night, leaving the HDMI 2 (Blu-ray player) input in Movie mode set to "AUTO" for Screen to Fit, and, again, overscan seemed to be displayed, being that I didn't see any tiny black letterbox areas (which this transfer should exhibit without overscan, being that I believe it's 1.85:1)…

So obviously, Auto is not overriding overscan for some reason, forcing me to use Screen to Fit: ON if I want to go forward with future viewing and no overscan. I just don't understand WHAT the AUTO setting is for, then...it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything...

Some other things, Chip:

I was never happy with the Blu-ray transfer of The Exorcist (a title that's one of my favorites and which I have a great deal of experience with regarding its various incarnations on home video), as I always thought it was far too grainy and similar-looking to the upscaled DVD of the previous The Version You've Never Seen cut. I get that the principal photography of this film was always uber-grainy and noisy and that no digital manipulation with regard to noise reduction was ever done to the print, to many purists' delight...however, after watching the film (well, almost all of it) last night on my 65" Samsung UHD panel (remember, before this I was watching it on a 50" Sony SXRD), I was struck at just how noisy, grainy and "unstable" this 1080p transfer really is. The opening Iraq sequence looked fabulous, as it always has on every display I've seen it on, with rich, warm colors and incredible detail when facial closeups of Max Von Sydow are focused upon. But when the previously noisy/grainy sequences came onscreen, it was APPALLING how bad this film looked to me on the bigger display...the scene when Karras (Jason Miller) visits his mother in her apartment was SWARMING with noisy, dancing, disgusting grain and artifacts, to the point it looked like a nasty over-the-air transmission or bad VHS tape. Other sequences fared the same way...

Now, I AM running the set in Movie mode with Sharpness turned down to ZERO (a setting that normally affects excessive grain and video noise), PLUS I am running Digital Clean View (noise reduction) on LOW and even have noise reduction dialed in on the OPPO. What is going on here? Why did the film seem SO much grainier and noisier to me watching it on the Samsung even WITH all this noise suppression being added from the BD player and TV? Was this just because I jumped from a 50" screen to a 65" and I am seeing all the imperfections blown up?

Additionally:

I recall me telling you recently that I increased the De-Judder control of the Samsung's Auto Motion Plus settings from its default (in Movie mode) of "3" to "4," in order to see if the soap opera effect would INCREASE a little (because I happen to like it in a subtle setting) and to see if I could eliminate that "micro-stutter" I'm seeing with every disc I play. When watching The Exorcist last night, it didn't seem like the soap opera effect increased at all, and that was with the De-Judder being set to "4." The OPPO was putting out a 1080p/24 signal, so the increased De-Judder setting SHOULD have increased the motion effect, shouldn't it have?

Does the SOE vary depending on the kind of film/signal the player is putting out?

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

Yes, it's preferable to leave it off, there isn't any need to use overscan with Blu-rays, but you may want to use it with the odd DVD (but I honestly wouldn't).

Are you talking about DVDs without anamorphic enhancement?

If so, I deal with those in the PLAYER, using the ZOOM function to bring it up to the correct ratio shape (in other words, if I'm watching a 2.40:1 film on a non-anamorphic disc, it will show up with MASSIVE black areas above and below, with the central image being squashed and kind of small; when I use the ZOOM function of the OPPO, I switch it to the FULL mode, and this blows the image up to look like a 2.40:1 widescreen DVD should look, with letterboxing areas to the top and bottom but not so severe).

Because broadcast providers probably don't care if a small percentage of viewers can see it.

But WHY is it STILL there?

Yes, I would imagine it's a centre crop when you use Standard 4:3.

Okay.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

I was never happy with the Blu-ray transfer of The Exorcist (a title that's one of my favorites and which I have a great deal of experience with regarding its various incarnations on home video), as I always thought it was far too grainy and similar-looking to the upscaled DVD of the previous The Version You've Never Seen cut. I get that the principal photography of this film was always uber-grainy and noisy and that no digital manipulation with regard to noise reduction was ever done to the print, to many purists' delight...however, after watching the film (well, almost all of it) last night on my 65" Samsung UHD panel (remember, before this I was watching it on a 50" Sony SXRD), I was struck at just how noisy, grainy and "unstable" this 1080p transfer really is. The opening Iraq sequence looked fabulous, as it always has on every display I've seen it on, with rich, warm colors and incredible detail when facial closeups of Max Von Sydow are focused upon. But when the previously noisy/grainy sequences came onscreen, it was APPALLING how bad this film looked to me on the bigger display...the scene when Karras (Jason Miller) visits his mother in her apartment was SWARMING with noisy, dancing, disgusting grain and artifacts, to the point it looked like a nasty over-the-air transmission or bad VHS tape. Other sequences fared the same way...

The Exorcist is a pretty grainy movie and it can be quite inconsistent too. I think it's a decent transfer, but it is a grainy one.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Now, I AM running the set in Movie mode with Sharpness turned down to ZERO (a setting that normally affects excessive grain and video noise), PLUS I am running Digital Clean View (noise reduction) on LOW and even have noise reduction dialed in on the OPPO. What is going on here? Why did the film seem SO much grainier and noisier to me watching it on the Samsung even WITH all this noise suppression being added from the BD player and TV? Was this just because I jumped from a 50" screen to a 65" and I am seeing all the imperfections blown up?

You might be, as you're viewing on a much larger screen, but I'd probably turn off the noise reduction with the OPPO and let the TV do the work.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

I recall me telling you recently that I increased the De-Judder control of the Samsung's Auto Motion Plus settings from its default (in Movie mode) of "3" to "4," in order to see if the soap opera effect would INCREASE a little (because I happen to like it in a subtle setting) and to see if I could eliminate that "micro-stutter" I'm seeing with every disc I play. When watching The Exorcist last night, it didn't seem like the soap opera effect increased at all, and that was with the De-Judder being set to "4." The OPPO was putting out a 1080p/24 signal, so the increased De-Judder setting SHOULD have increased the motion effect, shouldn't it have?

It's probably easier to ramp it up to the maximum setting to see its full affect, then dial it down a bit to your preferred level. The the changes won't be so subtle to your eyes.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Does the SOE vary depending on the kind of film/signal the player is putting out?

It can to some degree, but it's all content below 30Hz.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Are you talking about DVDs without anamorphic enhancement?

No just things that have quite visible window-boxing. You've probably got a few older DVDs that have a borer on all four sides (I know I have). You may want to zoom in or use overscan to fill the screen.

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

But WHY is it STILL there?

They probably use it for something during transmission, a few of our channels in the UK have similar things, we're not meant to see them, but the modern displays don't crop them out even with overscan.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by chip75

The Exorcist is a pretty grainy movie and it can be quite inconsistent too. I think it's a decent transfer, but it is a grainy one.

You might be, as you're viewing on a much larger screen, but I'd probably turn off the noise reduction with the OPPO and let the TV do the work.

I just don't understand why leaving Sharpness on 0 and engaging TWO forms of noise reduction didn't eradicate the ISO camera sensor noise and other elements when watching this disc; why wouldn't leaving Sharpness at minimum (in the most accurate picture mode) and using noise suppression techniques tame much of this? The disc bordered on almost unwatchable in certain parts -- leading me to believe it was the increase in screen size that's making me see the poor-looking sequences appear even worse.

But what else can I do short of leaving Sharpness decreased and applying noise reduction (which you originally said I shouldn't use on ANY high definition source)? I know you mentioned turning off the noise reduction on the OPPO, but the thing is, their reps had a lengthy email conversation with me in which they recommended (if I HAD to use noise reduction) I set the player to "+4" NR on a scale of "0" to "+8." In this way, they said, I wouldn't see the negative effects of engaging noise reduction, for the most part, and would still be able to smooth out some mosquito noise; at any rate, it's not really a straight "on/off" thing with the player's noise reduction...it's either zero or +8, and I'm in the middle at "+4"...

It's probably easier to ramp it up to the maximum setting to see its full affect, then dial it down a bit to your preferred level. The the changes won't be so subtle to your eyes.

But if I'm at "4" already on the slider, wouldn't this be introducing the effect at that point? It seems VERY, very subtle if at all there...

It can to some degree, but it's all content below 30Hz.

Okay -- but I'm not really seeing it too aggressively on 24Hz Blu-rays, so what would make it "disc dependent"?