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Old 02-18-2012, 10:19 PM   #41
EricJ EricJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdragon View Post
The point is that no one is forcing you to watch 3d in the theater and pay the surcharge. You can see the 2d version for the same exact price you did (not counting inflation) before 3d came out. Now if 3d were the only choice and they completely got rid of 2d, thus forcing you to pay the surcharge or not go to the movies then that would be a different story. However, we are not at that point yet. At this point, people are hoping for the death of it for no other reason than "I don't like it, so if I don't like it then NO ONE should have the option"
It's not they think they're fighting for their self-satisfaction, they're convinced they're fighting some holy crusade against the Evil Greedy Studios(tm), and every whisper campaign they spread is one more secret underground victory for the French Resis-tahnce--
Sort of like the Brotherhood of Sammy, only for the other side.

Usually starts out as a long-ago '07 remnant of "Why should I have to upgrade to Blu-ray, just because studios tell me to?--I just got my DVD player!"
Then gets mixed in with "Why does every studio have to put out movies in stupid 3-D conversions?...Immortals sucked!", with a little "Those glasses don't fit, they give me a headache, and they charged me an extra $5!" added for flavor.
Mix it all up, put it in the oven for a half hour, and you'll have "Those Evil Greedy Studios are making me buy nothing but their 3D movies on disk for $50 so they can make money off of it!...But those glasses are giving everyone a headache, that's why it's flopping in the theaters and no one's buying the players!"

If you're going to grab your gun and go off to Fight the Battle, it first helps to have a clear idea in your head of just exactly what enemy you ARE fighting; second, if you're running in the right direction; and third, to look back and see if there actually are any other armies behind you.

Last edited by EricJ; 02-18-2012 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:20 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdragon View Post
The point is that no one is forcing you to watch 3d in the theater and pay the surcharge. You can see the 2d version for the same exact price you did (not counting inflation) before 3d came out. Now if 3d were the only choice and they completely got rid of 2d, thus forcing you to pay the surcharge or not go to the movies then that would be a different story. However, we are not at that point yet. At this point, people are hoping for the death of it for no other reason than "I don't like it, so if I don't like it then NO ONE should have the option"
Whatever is produced and marketed carries a cost, and it is carried across the entire product line. Bean counters watch the bottom line, and look at what is creating profit and loss, but no company lets itself be dragged down by excessive cost in one product or service line. That cost is spread to everything; if the investment doesn't turn a profit, they get rid of it.

That being said, initially, production costs for 3-D were negligible. It was the R&D that was somewhat expensive, but not overly so. Most television manufacturers outside of the developers themselves simply bought the design, or leased the patents, however it worked out. Early production costs were negligible, too, a few dollars per circuit board to put electronics in a television set.

That's not where the cost is, although that's spread across everything. It was theater projection systems, disc production facilities, licensing rights, bug fixes, all of that - and if you think only 3-D related items are charged for those costs, you're not familiar with corporate practices at all.

Everyone pays for a product line or venue, whether they use it or not. All theater prices, televisions, discs, everything goes up - not proportionally, but they increase. A company heavily invested in a new technology has the option: Carry the cost without increasing the price, or set up a sliding scale of price increase, with all product lines supporting the load and increasing the revenue stream.

A huge cost is marketing. How many television ads have you seen for 3-D? Or even ads on the Web? For companies, it's a huge issue - mention 3-D, and it's not brand-specific. A Sony ad is just as valuable for Samsung, or LG, or Panasonic, so heavy investment is questionable. Same with studios and Blu 3-D production companies.

This is the bellweather: how many manufacturers have kiosk displays for their own 3-D equipment in large electronics stores? I've seen Sony, but no others. It's an investment they haven't made, since it benefits their competitors.

3-D will not die, there's no way; it's very inexpensive to produce, so it's a cheap niche. The problem for 3-D is that it's not being marketed, based on the blowback from what, in my opinion, is the most badly fumbled marketing rollout in consumer technology history (and I include Mac's Lisa, IBM's PS2, and a few other items in that statement).

Manufacturers are going to treat it as a standard item, without pushing it. Disc producers will carefully select what sells best, as well a theaters, and theatrical presentation producers. It's going to be slow, and the gee-whiz factor is simply gone, so better movies must be made with 3-D as an adjunct, not a raison d'etre.

It's not about "haters". It's about money. Let's see if the companies put more of it where their mouths are.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
This is the bellweather: how many manufacturers have kiosk displays for their own 3-D equipment in large electronics stores? I've seen Sony, but no others.
I've seen Sony AND Samsung right next to each other at our local Best Buy, but they had to take the glasses away from the Samsung because kids would just sit and watch Monsters vs. Aliens.
Just like the Panasonics would always be showing the 2-D Avatar, darnit.

(The Sony would usually show FIFA Cup, the Pina trailer or Final Fantasy XIII, so nobody would sit and watch that. )

Last edited by EricJ; 02-18-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:02 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
I'm just a devalued witness because I hate three dee
Eric a bulk of other countries around the planet do not speak or write in english. It's their second or third language. Within the boundary of the M25 london, over 184 languages are spoken, I enjoy multiculturalism (Mods, idiots have been adding stupid spelt words into the on-site dictionary!). When I travel around Europe I try too atleast use simple civilities in their own tongue.

It's great too see people enjoying the technology & not berating me or others for our views. If anything it is a further warning for the industry too not do a bodge job towards the consumers they have.
Gunz, dude, you're taking this way too personally--
We're not singling YOU out personally to laugh at, just because you thought you were one of six regulars on the 3D Technology board who could get a private discussion going on this week's carefully cherrypicked headline and thought the streetcorner Blu-Dog Squadron would rush to your rescue with twenty-three carefully echoed responses.

We're just laughing at the act in general...It's not the cause, it's the little "clubhouse".
Look, you probably don't know, but we have people like that in our country too: There're, like, five or six of them, but they all get together, hold insecure hyperdefensive tantrums about how the wrong the world is and no one's on their side, throw a lot of loud 6th-grade insults around to get attention and everyone het up, and then make a big show of what united allies they are and how deeply they agree with each other, and try to scare us with warnings that the current status quo is in for a big fat shock because everyone's suddenly going to see the light and join their side tomorrow and rule the world, when we know they really won't ...Over here, we call them "Republicans", but that doesn't mean they actually get anything done outside of the treehouse by the end of the day.

Basically, it's like we said: Go back in some of the older threads and look at your favorite "Blu-ray declared massive failure! Sony and Best Buy prepared to abandon format tomorrow!" faux-headline from '07-'08, and see how eerily familiar most of the language sounds....Oh, it's like looking at your old prom photos, ain't it?
"Greedy studios" "jacking up the price" to "maike" you buy new technology, Evil Sony putting "rootkits" in every disk, "apathetic customers turned off by whopping prices", "racks of unsold players" on every shelf--Honestly, did you folks think you were the first?
It's just...well....it's just the NOSTALGIA of it all. Maybe that's why we chuckle instead of getting mad.

Last edited by EricJ; 02-19-2012 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:11 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricJ View Post
Gunz, dude, you're taking this way too personally--
We're not singling YOU out personally to laugh at, just because you thought you were one of six regulars on the 3D Technology board who could get a private discussion going on this week's carefully cherrypicked headline and thought the streetcorner Blu-Dog Squadron would rush to your rescue with twenty-three carefully echoed responses.
I can't figure out why you take this way too personally.

And I can't figure out this "we" who is, or isn't, singling anybody out - this isn't, I thought, a "team sport".

Anyway, I'm not going to rescue anybody from this "we" thing, whatever it is. I'm just asking, where's the money? There's no more marketing pressure.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
That was funny, you have permission too stay longer
I felt it was going to be too provocative if placed into 3d-news. It's going well really if certain people are lambasting me for enjoying the posted news or is that nonsensical?
(Yep, we old folks used to see this on Usenet all the time:
When they start turning the thread back on themselves and sounding like fey 007 villains, they're OFFICIALLY career-trolling.
Serious members may enact lockdown accordingly.)

Last edited by EricJ; 02-19-2012 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:28 PM   #47
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For me personally 3D just isn't where I'd want it to be before I'd be willing to invest any extra money in it. I have a 3D capable tv... but have never felt a compelling urge to invest in the extra technology needed to actually use it. Up til now... the only 3D that has ever made me go WOW was at the Imax. Even RealD technology at the local theater just makes me go "meh" and in most cases actually distracts me from the movie rather than drawing me deeper into it. If that is seen as "hating" that's fine by me... but the truth is that is just how I see it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:01 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricJ View Post
(Yep, we old folks used to see this on Usenet all the time:
When they start turning the thread back on themselves and sounding like fey 007 villains, they're OFFICIALLY career-trolling.
Serious members may enact lockdown accordingly.)
The topic is Samsung's stance on marketing 3-D, and you're still nattering about yourself, other people, and making accusations about trolls, but you can't seem to address the topic in a straight line. It's all about friends and enemies.

Are you interested in the topic?
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robinandtami View Post
For me personally 3D just isn't where I'd want it to be before I'd be willing to invest any extra money in it. I have a 3D capable tv... but have never felt a compelling urge to invest in the extra technology needed to actually use it. Up til now... the only 3D that has ever made me go WOW was at the Imax. Even RealD technology at the local theater just makes me go "meh" and in most cases actually distracts me from the movie rather than drawing me deeper into it. If that is seen as "hating" that's fine by me... but the truth is that is just how I see it.
It appears that's how the general public is seeing it. That can change - if the companies involved make a clear-cut, combined effort to support this technology. Their current efforts have worked for early adopters, but we'll always see that. If this is to go mainstream, this rate of adoption is far too slow, and those on the supply end of things are not too concerned - at least in the home market. Your experience is a prime example.

Reticence is due to:

- Recent purchase of 2-D technology (within the last three years or so)
- Cost of media (25% to 100% higher than 2-D offerings)
- Wariness about marginal offerings (Shark 3-D is not on many wish lists)
- Lack of non-blockbuster, non-CGI, non-animated titles (the action genre is almost totally missing)
- Health concerns, real or not, which haven't been addressed
- Electric glasses (not needed in the theater, almost required at home, and still very expensive)

All of these things have solutions, but someone has to pay for it. Samsung's European announcement is only a hint of actual thinking on this topic, from one manufacturer, but recent reports of losses by Panasonic and Sony don't bode well for an infusion of capital very soon.

It's not the fault of the technology - there's a worldwide recession - but it's not going to get better until the economy allows everyone to turn this into a "oh, what the heck, I'll take the plunge" mood. Most people are not in that mood right now.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:30 PM   #50
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I hope they don't come out with better technology, because then my tv will obsolete

I think the problem with 3d sets is the lack of awareness, especially here. I tell people I have a 3d set and some people are surprised they exists and others are unaware you can use glasses you don't have recharge.

For me getting a tv with 3d was actually cheaper than a set without it, I got a 55inch led lg for $400nzd less than the cheapest 55inch lcd sony. I really enjoy 3d, so does my girlfriend and so do all my friends who always come over and watch it. To say you want to see 3d die and that it is just a fad is not that fair to all the people in the forum who enjoy 3d. On a greater scale blu-ray is just a fad, a lot of people think its rubbish and are happy with dvd.

I came to this forum to get away from people rubbishing blu-ray technology not to listen to people slander it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:03 PM   #51
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Funny old world. My post gets removed is it because I forgot to use 'hypothetically' infront of this post.

Eric nothing you have said is worthy of response. "..Ow why not.."

You are living in a fantasy land of broken grammar & flawed logic. I have no intention of conversing with you or your third person perceived stance or how you became two people. Carry on your mission of self-aggrandizement or whatever journey an goal you have set forth. To ridicule you would belittle my time & skill (you are doing just fine by yourself). Lay off the underscores underlines, extenuation's & quotation marks..sticking with basic punctuation full stop.


You eric took your time too babble on about a number of illogical prepositions that was done to try to humiliate or intimidate me & get me emotional?

Seems my post was way to accurate as it was removed.

Which if people aren't to quick..they won't get too read this either. Thanks to Blu-Dog and other members for sticking with a debate and conversation about the technology rather than using any dissent as a open-door method of attacking adverse views.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:52 PM   #52
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I think to make 3d more mainstream, they may have to lower the price on the led's that are coming out and put 3d on EVERY tv. It will still be a great 2d tv mind you, and you won't ever be forced to buy the glasses to even use the 3d portion, but the tv will be the exact same price as if it were 2d, right to the penny.

Some people may have no intention of ever doing 3d, but if their tv already has it then maybe they will try it one time and actually like it. You can now rent 3d blu's at family video and if it's passive you can use the same glasses as the theater which are dirt cheap. I mean, adding 3d to every tv shouldn't make any difference to people who just want 2d as long as it's the same price as the 2d tv's were BEFORE they added the 3d to all of them. Like say now a 55" led is 1200 bucks, add 3d to all the 55" led's and keep them at 1200 bucks. I can't imagine the tech in the tv is so expensive that they can't put it in for the sake of revitalizing 3d.

Most of these companies are, or have subsidiaries that are in the blockbuster/hollywood movie business and it would be in their best interest to lose 50 bucks on a tv to be able to sell those 3d blu's at a bit more.

Surely no one can complain if they get a 3d "option" with their tv if it costs the same price as the 2d tv is before they added that option.

I'm sure that when the crts in the 80's and 90's came out they didn't all come with remote controls and there was probably a portion that said "All you people who want remote controls are lazy, get off your fat butts and change it yourself" But eventually EVERY tv had remote controls while still not raising the price for said remotes. I think 3d could be something like that, something added on to all tv's in the future, much like say a TV tuner is added on to tv's. I don't watch cable, and don't need one, but every tv has one regardless and it's not like i can get a tv without one for cheaper.

After awhile you won't hear people saying "I just bought a 3d tv" or "I have a 3d tv". It will just be "I bought a tv" or "I own a tv". That's because 3d will be a given on all of them, even if you don't use it.

Not one person here can say that having options is a bad thing, having options is always a good thing.

Last edited by dmdragon; 02-19-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
The topic is Samsung's stance on marketing 3-D, and you're still nattering about yourself, other people, and making accusations about trolls, but you can't seem to address the topic in a straight line. It's all about friends and enemies.
Are you interested in the topic?
In this specific case, not particularly, as the article was all about Samsung's stance on marketing 3-D IN BELGIUM.

And I don't live in Belgium. As previously noted.
As I see from your profile, neither do you.

Last edited by EricJ; 02-19-2012 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:15 PM   #54
Duane Benzie(Spaced) Duane Benzie(Spaced) is offline
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The price of 3D TVs here in the UK is ridiculous fully featured award winning sets for around 1000, at that price even if its never used in 3D its a bargain.

I'm no massive fan, I only recently got a 3D set but I'd say news of its death would seem premature.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nommag View Post
I hope they don't come out with better technology, because then my tv will obsolete
Maybe "obsolescent", but not "obsolete". There's a huge difference. You'll still have excellent 2-D Blu performance, and 3-D performance won't suffer much, if at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nommag View Post
I think the problem with 3d sets is the lack of awareness, especially here. I tell people I have a 3d set and some people are surprised they exists and others are unaware you can use glasses you don't have recharge.
That's a huge part of the problem. Technology is still changing, rapidly, and there's little (if any) marketing to let people know what's going on. There's also blowback from early adopters, who don't want anything to change if it makes their sets obsolescent, who proselytize about what was state of the art in January, 2010. This makes it hard to turn the ocean liner, even if it is moving at dead slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nommag View Post
For me getting a tv with 3d was actually cheaper than a set without it, I got a 55inch led lg for $400nzd less than the cheapest 55inch lcd sony. I really enjoy 3d, so does my girlfriend and so do all my friends who always come over and watch it. To say you want to see 3d die and that it is just a fad is not that fair to all the people in the forum who enjoy 3d. On a greater scale blu-ray is just a fad, a lot of people think its rubbish and are happy with dvd.

I came to this forum to get away from people rubbishing blu-ray technology not to listen to people slander it.
There is big resistance, for a number of reasons, most of which can be overcome with the right presentation with consumers. This technology has had a muddled rollout, mostly depending on "gee whiz" public support, which hasn't turned it into a firestorm of acceptance. Amazingly, this has been a surprise to aficiandos and the industry as a whole, who have allowed the negative buzz to control the discussion with no clear response.

I'm wondering when that will change, but market forces may have other priorities right now.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:45 AM   #56
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Blu Dog (me) asked: Are you interested in the topic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricJ View Post
In this specific case, not particularly, as the article was all about Samsung's stance on marketing 3-D IN BELGIUM.

And I don't live in Belgium. As previously noted.
As I see from your profile, neither do you.
I'm less interested in the location than I am the corporation. What the rep said out loud is what the corporation is doing right here in America.

I really wonder what's going on. I live in a very new, solidly middle class neighborhood in an outlying area of Los Angeles County. The whole town isn't like my neighborhood - it's mostly "working class", with family incomes around the $70K mark, and many people commute to Los Angeles at hideous expense for their jobs. Upscale restaurants have a short lifespan in this area. People don't want to blow a week's gasoline money on dinner, for the most part.

So I was thinking that folks had a bit more income where I live, and would be interested in home theater - but that's not the case. My neighbors - ALL of them - live in new homes, none less than 2,800 square feet, and most don't have children at home. They have sports cars, Harleys, impeccable lawns (which takes work in California's high desert), new furniture, the whole bit - and not one of them has a television bigger than 42". I know, they come to my home, see all these big screens and fancy speakers, and are agog. But they haven't emulated the example.

Not one - and I'm talking about roughly 20 homes - has a working 3-D setup. A couple of them have 3-D ready sets, and never bother with it. Amazingly, many of them still buy DVD's, and don't have a Blu player.

This is the definition of slow adoption. These are people I actually know, who bring friends and relatives by to see all this stuff, but it's like they're walking into a Magnolia or some other upscale store. They like the look, and the sound, but they don't buy into it.

The local Best Buy - the only place to find 3-D displayed, along with the mid-range audio less fancy than mine - has watched 3-D displays gather dust for a long time. They sell more low-end Dynex and what not, than anything else. This is an area with well over 200,000 people living here, anchored by major aerospace firms paying decent wages. The 3-D movie section is the loneliest and best stocked section of the store. Nothing moves.

A couple of years ago, when they were blowing out the 2-D sets at great prices just before the 3-D rollout, everything sold. $300-$400 2-D Blu players, 52 inch televisions, people trampled over each other to get them, and now, you could throw Optimus Prime through the place and not hit anybody.

It's probably not lack of interest in the medium - it's lack of a couple of thousand dollars in elective spending money for a television, four or five pairs of glasses for the family, a new player, and a decent receiver and some speakers to hear what's offered. It may cost even more than that, as any eager salesperson will tell them, and a guy with a toddler on his shoulders, and a couple of kids zooming off to the game displays, with his wife looking at the refrigerators, is just not going to throw away a TV he got two or three years ago.

This seems to be dissuading the companies from any strong marketing moves, too. I don't know if there were any significant 3-D ads during the Super Bowl (I recorded that, skipped all the ads, and I guess I missed some moron who gave the audience the finger during the geriatric thumpa-thumpa half time "extravaganza"), but there's no buzz about it, so the industry skipped out on spending $3.5 million a minute to reach half the adults in the United States to pump up interest.

The reluctance has been officially voiced in Belgium - and I'm wondering, out loud, if it's happening right here. It looks like it is, from the current situation. That has nothing to do with the medium itself, but it has everything to do with the people who supply it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:55 AM   #57
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Bottom line, everything anyone is saying about cost, is that most people don't have money or they just don't care about home theater.....period! HDTV is still not in as many homes as people think. Us Bluray fanatics with our High Def TV's with 3D and our theater quality sound systems are in the minority. It's all really a moot point. There are those of us who own it, will continue to own it and will probably always upgrade when the new tech comes out. But the majority of consumers never will. They may not even purchase a bluray player because they're either not interested, their current standard def TV with DVD and TV sound set-up is fine, or they just don't have the money. The 3D argument that it's going away because the interest is not there from the general public, is not the issue. The issue is, owning high tech gear and being to able to afford it or even care about it. We will always be in the minority and have our own little club here on Bluray.com
And that's fine with me.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:19 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nommag View Post
I hope they don't come out with better technology, because then my tv will obsolete

I think the problem with 3d sets is the lack of awareness, especially here. I tell people I have a 3d set and some people are surprised they exists and others are unaware you can use glasses you don't have recharge.

For me getting a tv with 3d was actually cheaper than a set without it, I got a 55inch led lg for $400nzd less than the cheapest 55inch lcd sony. I really enjoy 3d, so does my girlfriend and so do all my friends who always come over and watch it. To say you want to see 3d die and that it is just a fad is not that fair to all the people in the forum who enjoy 3d. On a greater scale blu-ray is just a fad, a lot of people think its rubbish and are happy with dvd.

I came to this forum to get away from people rubbishing blu-ray technology not to listen to people slander it.


Did you mean 3D bro? Even if you meant bluray, they will find you. This is the biggest party crashing site I've ever been associated with. People just can't let others enjoy what they like without critique.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:23 AM   #59
AmrlKJaneway AmrlKJaneway is offline
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Apr 2011
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Disinterest is not hate. Many folks who couldn't care for 3D are upset that pro-3D nuts in this thread are attacking them. They're not... well, I think.

A hater is like someone who gets sick on rollercoasters. So instead of going on the Merry Go Round, he goes to the front of the line of the rollercoaster and attempts to stop people getting on. The people who make it past him and go for the ride are yelled at and called names by the hater. As if they were stupid for wanting to go on the ride.

Someone who's disinterested in the ride will just sit it out, maybe even let his kids jump on and tell him about it afterwards. Completely different ballpark.

That's the way I see it anyway. 3D fans love the tech, I hope it stays and those who enjoy it can use it for themselves, and not tie down a bunch of haters Clockwork Orange style and force them to do so too. Plus I imagine it's a lot of fun for directors to do something different after all these years...
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:25 AM   #60
Nommag Nommag is offline
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Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koover View Post
[/B]

Did you mean 3D bro? Even if you meant bluray, they will find you. This is the biggest party crashing site I've ever been associated with. People just can't let others enjoy what they like without critique.
Isn't (non-anaglyph) 3d just an extension of blu-ray technology, no blu-ray and 1080p = no 3d. In fact 3d is the best piece of technology I have to convince my friends blu-ray is actually worth it over dvd. Picture quality alone is not enough. It boggles my mind when people come to a blu-ray forum to have a go at an element that makes up blu-rays. Kind of like people slamming blu-ray collectables like slipcovers. If you don't like them don't come here.
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