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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Receivers


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Old 04-08-2007, 01:06 AM   #1
THE STUD THE STUD is offline
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Default SACD/DVD-A dead

With the possibility of Blu-Ray also being a median for next generation music, I have recently seen SACD and DVD-A dying. There are two Best Buys in the area that I live now, and the bigger and older one use to carry these, but all they have now is the left overs from their orders from years ago.
The new one that has built, doesn't carry a single thing. i asket someone that worked there, they didn't even know what those formats were. so i hope we hear bout blu-ray being the next generation SACD/DVD-A with a much higher potential for size and quality of sound, as well as menus and backgrounds
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:10 AM   #2
Chris Gerhard Chris Gerhard is offline
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Not dead, we still see a few releases on each format. Some small labels seem to be making the formats work as high priced very limited quantity releases. Jazz and classical releases on SACD seem to be doing ok. Warner just re-released the Doors Perception box set at a lower price with less expensive packaging. AIX has recently released a couple of DVD-A's. Telarc has released some SACD's. There are some new Genesis SACD's and recent Moody Blues SACD's.

SACD and DVD-A on life support has nothing to do with Blu-ray but if HD DVD can bow out, we might see an effort with high resolution music on Blu-ray. I don't have high expectations for anything soon.

Chris
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:17 AM   #3
dvda-sacd dvda-sacd is offline
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Exclamation BD-Audio?

Firstly, the Super Audio CD format has got a well established niche market. You can find every single SACD on-line.

http://www.sa-cd.net/

Secondly, it seems to me that a BD-Audio format would probably fail, unless it were the best digital audio format ever invented. Besides, I don't like the DVD-Audio's menus; for music only, I do prefer the simplicity of SACD.

Cheers!
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:26 AM   #4
Chris Gerhard Chris Gerhard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvda-sacd View Post
Firstly, the Super Audio CD format has got a well established niche market. You can find every single SACD on-line.

http://www.sa-cd.net/

Secondly, it seems to me that a BD-Audio format would probably fail, unless it were the best digital audio format ever invented. Besides, I don't like the DVD-Audio's menus; for music only, I do prefer the simplicity of SACD.

Cheers!
I expect BD-Audio to be the equivalent of DVD-Audio. I agree, I hope users only need to have the player set to default to stereo or surround and not have to navigate any menus or turn on the display. Hit play and listen with BD-Audio. Will it succeed? I wouldn't bet on it. Will it even be tried? If HD DVD throws in the towel, yes, at some point.

Chris
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:33 PM   #5
AlexKx AlexKx is offline
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It BETTER succede! I am HELL bent on it! NOW is the time for the music industry to get it's act together and sell many of the unreleased tracks for most albums and all the films related to the albums as Blu-Ray discs and of course 5.1 Surround Sound. There is no excuse or reason why for the first time in human history there cannot be one format for music, movies, and video games. The point also is that the music industry need to give the public an incintive to buy their products and by having LOADS of these bonus features on them with great packaging it should be a MINDBLOWING experience.
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:45 PM   #6
JTK JTK is offline
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SACD has a nice niche, largely for classical music.

DVD-A somehow gets the odd stray release of something like these expanded deluxe LOTR soundtracks, which I've bought, but frankly: They both have been dead for years now. The thing that kills me about these is: They were sabotaged and hamstrung from the source out of the gate to begin with.

Right now even HD-DVD's advertisement and PR range blows away anything that SACD or DVD-A ever saw, which has basically been nothing.

BD's PR and advertising nukes all of the above away in spades and will continue to do so.

I view SACD and DVD-A both as two of the largest and most needless tragedies that I've ever seen in consumer electronics. I love them both.

It just amazes me that we're still on CD after 20 years, still paying the same prices for CD's after 20 years (this is in complete defiance of the usual cycle of life in consumer electronics)... and we're seeing sideways and backwards' momentum for audio quality thanks to Ipods and Mp3's.

Pretty damned depressing for people that care about audio quality, although CD engineering certainly has come very far in the past 20 years. High quality CD's these days sound just about as good as a good number of SACD and DVD-A on the right equipment.

"Best of the best" SACD and DVD-A will still be at the top of the mountain, though.



I hope that BD-A becomes a reality someday. We're long overdue to see a true successor to the CD, especially if we're going to continue to pay the same prices for a 20 year old+ technology.

Last edited by JTK; 04-08-2007 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTK View Post
SACD has a nice niche, largely for classical music.

DVD-A somehow gets the odd stray release of something like these expanded deluxe LOTR soundtracks, which I've bought, but frankly: They both have been dead for years now. The thing that kills me about these is: They were sabotaged and hamstrung from the source out of the gate to begin with.

Right now even HD-DVD's advertisement and PR range blows away anything that SACD or DVD-A ever saw, which has basically been nothing.

BD's PR and advertising nukes all of the above away in spades and will continue to do so.

I view SACD and DVD-A both as two of the largest and most needless tragedies that I've ever seen in consumer electronics. I love them both.

It just amazes me that we're still on CD after 20 years, still paying the same prices for CD's after 20 years (this is in complete defiance of the usual cycle of life in consumer electronics)... and we're seeing sideways and backwards' momentum for audio quality thanks to Ipods and Mp3's.

Pretty damned depressing for people that care about audio quality, although CD engineering certainly has come very far in the past 20 years. High quality CD's these days sound just about as good as a good number of SACD and DVD-A on the right equipment.

"Best of the best" SACD and DVD-A will still be at the top of the mountain, though.



I hope that BD-A becomes a reality someday. We're long overdue to see a true successor to the CD, especially if we're going to continue to pay the same prices for a 20 year old+ technology.

I'm there with ya, Yes and SACD/DVD-A is dead whether you want to mention it people. When you can't find them at a single store in an area of over half a million people, obviously demand is dead. When you can't get things in the store, but online their either too high priced or their dead/dying. In this case, their dead/dying. we need a new format to truly take over CD. Why not make blu-ray music, movies, and games? That would only boost blu-ray if they were the only new format being that multi purpose. Menus would be sweet so it's not just an expensive cd, i would like track names, info, album name and info, etc.

CD quality is good, but it's nothing to the next generation DD True HD and DTS True HD. since blu-ray and HD DVD are the only ones capable of fitting these on a disc, then why the hell don't we embrace them for the next gen. quality audio. CDs are ok if you have an ok system, but when you have a Marantz system, 60" HDTV and such, you want qualtiy, especially when you have a good ear.
I have the LOTR expanded scores on DVD-A and their pretty sweet. Unfortunately their pretty much dead to the public, I would love to see them on a bluray True HD disc that can play them above 48/24 or whatever. DVd-A and SACd lack room for that.

It's time to bury CD's, their dead. even if you don't care about the higher quality audio, can't you atleast appreciate the amount of material you could fit on one disc? imagine a single disc for greatest hits. That's next generation, cd is old, LET IT GO.You want HD picture, WHAT ABOUT HD SOUND?
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Old 04-08-2007, 07:58 PM   #8
WriteSimply WriteSimply is offline
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You can get HD sound with SACD and DVD-A, unless you want to go beyond 5.1. The problem is there's not much support for them.

Here's what I like about hybrid SACDs: you can play them on any CD player.

DVD-As are not really a portable audio format even though DVD players are everywhere. Then there's the fact that you have to navigate the menu.

If BD-Audio can be the same as SACD - hybrid CD and BD layer is possible, menu navigation can be turned off on all BD-Audio players - then I'd buy into that if it gets wide support from the music labels.


fuad
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:25 PM   #9
AlexKx AlexKx is offline
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Listen I don't know jack BUT if they can freakin' make video games on Blu-Ray AND movies on them of upwards of TWENTY hours then they can freakin' make them just for portable audio devices. They should just as well be backwards compatable like the rest of any other Blu-Ray players. There really is no excuse from what I can tell that this should not be happening for the music industry. As far as 5.1 nine out of ten people I speak to have no idea what it is and can't get their head wrapped around buying FIVE speakers but I think it is nothing short of phenomenal and pray that it will be on all of these Blu-Ray discs for music as well.
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:07 PM   #10
THE STUD THE STUD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimply View Post
You can get HD sound with SACD and DVD-A, unless you want to go beyond 5.1. The problem is there's not much support for them.

Here's what I like about hybrid SACDs: you can play them on any CD player.

DVD-As are not really a portable audio format even though DVD players are everywhere. Then there's the fact that you have to navigate the menu.

If BD-Audio can be the same as SACD - hybrid CD and BD layer is possible, menu navigation can be turned off on all BD-Audio players - then I'd buy into that if it gets wide support from the music labels.


fuad
I didn't think SACD had any True HD sound, it's some other kind of sound. Not to mention, like I KEEP SAYING OVER AND OVER, SACD can't hold more than a conventional CD!!!!!!!!!! I want more than just 15-20 songs on a disc. I want an entire collection. Like DVD-A, the one I have holds 3 CDs in 4 different audio formats. The problem is their only 24/48, i want the 192 thing or whatever, I want the highest possible quality. IF you listen to soundtracks I'm sure you'd understand.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:49 AM   #11
WriteSimply WriteSimply is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE STUD View Post
I didn't think SACD had any True HD sound, it's some other kind of sound.
DSD is 1-bit sampling at 2.8224 Mhz. The best DVD-A can do is 192 kHz at 24-bit. CD is at 44.1kHz at 16-bit.

Experts say that most humans can't hear any difference at or past 192kHz and I've yet to hear a disc at that range. However, I like the sound of DSD just fine.

Quote:
Not to mention, like I KEEP SAYING OVER AND OVER, SACD can't hold more than a conventional CD!!!!!!!!!! I want more than just 15-20 songs on a disc. I want an entire collection. Like DVD-A, the one I have holds 3 CDs in 4 different audio formats.
I seriously doubt that music labels would want to release a collection like that.

IF they do: a) you'd have to pain an arm and a leg because it's not just ONE album you're buying; and b) if it gets damaged, you'd be banging your head on the wall.

Quote:
The problem is their only 24/48, i want the 192 thing or whatever, I want the highest possible quality. IF you listen to soundtracks I'm sure you'd understand.
Film soundtracks are often recorded at 24-bit 48kHz. A few are higher and some are in analog.


fuad
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:44 AM   #12
Gremal Gremal is offline
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SACD is alive and well in my house, and when the labels started making it clear they would no longer support it, I started buying a lot more vinyl, which many of you probably would say has been dead for decades.

My point is: it ain't dead if you're still enjoying it on your system and finding quality gear to spin it.

I don't see where blu-ray enters into this discussion. Blu-ray is clearly a video format. That is how the industry regards blu-ray and markets it to the consumer.

SACD and DVD-A had too much of a challenge. Supplanting CD would have been a difficult enough feat of marketing. But with the advent of MP3, rampant piracy and iPod, optical discs for music faced monumenal challenges. Most music sales traditionally have been to teenagers, and suddenly the teen idea of obtaining music changed. SACD unfortunately never had a chance, but it was a valiant effort. A quality format that was well conceived and expertly marketed.

My 200 or so SACDs will get lots of play and if any worthy additions come along, I will certainly buy them. Sorry, I don't really care for Moody Blues, Genesis or Depeche Mode. But I'm glad to see these releases being purchased by many of you!

Last edited by Gremal; 04-09-2007 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 12:28 PM   #13
frenchglen frenchglen is offline
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Hey everyone, First post

I personally think that by the time a BD successor format to DVD-A/SACD is launched (if it ever will be), HD music downloads will seriously compete and eventually replace it anyway. The future of media is obviously downloads - internet speeds, hard drive capacities will only ever increase and apple tv concepts and google's eventual plan for everyone to have access to their files online will probably spell the end of physical media...

E.g. Look at musicgiants.com. The first online cd-quality and hi-res quality music downloads site. Although they advertise their content as "high definition" ("CD-quality" maybe isn't enough to convince the average comsumer that it's much better than MP3 quality), they also have a small "super HD" section, with stereo and 5.1 downloads!

But before that eventually takes off I think the idea posted above of blu-ray being a format for anything (music, movies and games) is a great idea.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:07 PM   #14
Alex Pallas Alex Pallas is offline
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higher definition audio really isnt needed, 1411kbs seems to be better quality than anyone can notice anyway, i'm more interested in the multichannel setup aspect.
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #15
JTK JTK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen View Post
Hey everyone, First post

I personally think that by the time a BD successor format to DVD-A/SACD is launched (if it ever will be), HD music downloads will seriously compete and eventually replace it anyway. The future of media is obviously downloads - internet speeds, hard drive capacities will only ever increase and apple tv concepts and google's eventual plan for everyone to have access to their files online will probably spell the end of physical media...

E.g. Look at musicgiants.com. The first online cd-quality and hi-res quality music downloads site. Although they advertise their content as "high definition" ("CD-quality" maybe isn't enough to convince the average comsumer that it's much better than MP3 quality), they also have a small "super HD" section, with stereo and 5.1 downloads!

But before that eventually takes off I think the idea posted above of blu-ray being a format for anything (music, movies and games) is a great idea.
I disagree on the downloads thing for the same argument on the video side:

Until you figure out a way to get FIOS like setups (or even faster and better) to the guy out in the boonies or up in the mountains for a lot cheaper than what it costs right now (among other things), digital downloads cannot and will not be taking over anytime soon.

Beyond that you have plenty of people like me who prefer to spend money and have something of actual substance to show for their efforts.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:54 PM   #16
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WELL GUYS I tell you I love the format sounds, SACD-DVD-A, it's just that there's not enough stuff on them for soundtracks. I mean there's maybe like half a dozen soundtracks on SACD worth talking about, and DVD-A only has the LOTR scores which I have and are awesome. I mean ther's no big score on SACD, except Titanic which I don't like. Where's batman begine, gladiator, star wars, star trek(besides Nemesis), James horner's best, Jerry goldsmith's best, John William's best,
LIke I said, there's not enough choices for me to want them stilll AS far as I see, there hasn't been any new releases on soundtracks. Maybe zorro 2, but that's not worth buying
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:57 PM   #17
JTK JTK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE STUD View Post
WELL GUYS I tell you I love the format sounds, SACD-DVD-A, it's just that there's not enough stuff on them for soundtracks. I mean there's maybe like half a dozen soundtracks on SACD worth talking about, and DVD-A only has the LOTR scores which I have and are awesome. I mean ther's no big score on SACD, except Titanic which I don't like. Where's batman begine, gladiator, star wars, star trek(besides Nemesis), James horner's best, Jerry goldsmith's best, John William's best,
LIke I said, there's not enough choices for me to want them stilll AS far as I see, there hasn't been any new releases on soundtracks. Maybe zorro 2, but that's not worth buying
I'm with you all the way on that.

I doubt we'll ever see any of those get released on SACD or DVD-A.
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #18
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Look guys, DVD-A/SACD, is dead for the average consumer.
CD prices are way too high for the technology...

And, there's no way in hell the average consumer can get speakers to fully support frequencies as high as 2.8224 MHz. I wonder, are there speakers with speakers up to 2 MHz?
A BD-Audio, with the same pricing as CD now (should be easy, with CDs here priced at €15 - €20 and BD movies priced at $15 in the US) at 96 kHz and 24 bits would be OK I suppose. Or higher with some nice technique like DSD or similar... Anyway, it should be lossy. I don't think that's a problem, with 25 GB available in stead of 4.7 GB for audio storage.
And, we should also think about longer lengths. About 80 minutes for CD is nice, but not for large audio releases...

It would be nice if they'd just use current BD technology and make the discs playable with a simple firmware update.


However, I'm afraid CD is a little bit too profitable right now, and demand will be low if you'd need a new player from the start (aside from a BD player)... (same story as DVD-A and SACD?)
It's just not in the pipeline at the moment and will it be like that for quite some time I'm afraid. And if it'll be, they may be too late..

Last edited by thunderhawk; 04-09-2007 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:41 PM   #19
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There must be fifty box sets of music at Best Buy right now. Why would the industry not want those released on one disc...of course at the same price...with bonus features of 5.1 and whatever else?! The same for film box sets. You could still have the big packaging just have it all on one or far less discs than what they have now. In some cases get rid of box sets and add demos, outtakes, instrumentals, remixes, alternative versions of songs, different edits, short promotional films (which are music videos), making of's of the films, any filmed recording, old interviews, and new interviews all being possiblities for ALL audio recordings EVER released including concert films being on the audio releases. How in the hell is this not possibly in the works?! This would be far and beyond what promtional films did for music, the MTV channels or it's original revolution in the U.S. in 1981, and what original music home video releases did or box sets for that matter in terms of being revolutionary for the music industry I think anyway.

The point IS exactly that the music industry have GOT to come up with something MORE than just the songs for people to buy that they can get through downloads. The movie industry are considering the same by putting film in 3-D for theaters since that would be an experience that the public are unable to do in their homes...at least currently. George Lucas is going to be doing this with his previously released "Star Wars" films...so would all film from the past be able to be done in 3-D?

These Blu-Ray discs would be packaged deals so that the public would not have to got to such great lengths of work to collect everything themselves that would be the bonus features for albums. There is so much music history for EVERY or many individual releases that the public are so unaware about and now the opportunity is there to expose and shine the light on things concerning their history far beyond what VH1's "Behind The Music" EVER did.

Of course just because albums have unreleased material does NOT mean that it is good enough to release or that the artists themselves would want to release it but not only is the possiblity there now to do so but I think public opinion would be overwhelmingly supporting of this if they were made aware as to how much of this stuff in unreleased in vaults.

Last edited by AlexKx; 04-09-2007 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 11:19 PM   #20
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That would be .. ^^

Wow, this topic is getting more like a thinktank...
Maybe this should be added in the topic title: "the rebirth of the music industry: how?"
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