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Old 09-06-2018, 03:52 AM   #21
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I think that graphic is total bologna. That looks like a Dolby Stereo layout from a movie from the early 80s. The center channel and rears appear to be mono just like matrixed Dolby surround. I think a marketing person who knows nothing about surround mixes dummied that up.

If this album was recorded on an 8 track master and those numbers correspond to the number and layout of the tracks, then only the strings are stereo. Everything else would required overlap and ambience filters to create the sound of stereo... and that chart only shows overlap in the drums and strings. I sure hope they don't really mix it like that.

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Old 09-06-2018, 11:55 AM   #22
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Yeah. The second blu-ray includes stems from the mix...
i'm not seeing where those are listed. are you thinking of the elements mixes? because a few of those are also offered on the 2nd audio CD
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I think that graphic is total bologna. That looks like a Dolby Stereo layout from a movie from the early 80s. The center channel and rears appear to be mono just like matrixed Dolby surround. I think a marketing person who knows nothing about surround mixes dummied that up.

If this album was recorded on an 8 track master and those numbers correspond to the number and layout of the tracks, then only the strings are stereo. Everything else would required overlap and ambience filters to create the sound of stereo... and that chart only shows overlap in the drums and strings. I sure hope they don't really mix it like that.
I understand where your misconceptions come from, the album was recorded on 8-track machines not on a single 8-track master tape; for those of us more familiar with the recording process, original first generation multitracks means they've transferred all the pre-bounce tapes to 24/96 wave files. This is also how they were able to create an Atmos mix from Peppers even though it was recorded using 4-track machines...they kept all the pre-bounce tapes.

All multitracks are mono and this is a 5.1 mix so they're not looking to create the sound of stereo, I don't understand what you mean by that. They could have 16-tracks of strings, or 27, or 4. They're just showing where in the soundfield you'll hear the strings. When you mix for 5.1, where you place the mono file into the surround field is where you'll hear it, you don't select a track and just put "right front" on it (I mean you could, and that's hopefully what's happened with the vocals here being 100% centre) but rather you place it into the soundfield and the mixing software will adjust the levels.

For example, we have slightly adjust multis for two full Nine Inch Nails albums. So that it's easier for beginner mixers, they have already lined up all the multis into stereo files to make it easy to rebuild the original sterero track (beautifully with no dynamic range compression) but this does allow you to mix the albums into surround. Here's one of the extra drum sample tracks from Year Zero's Survivalism, I'm mixing it predominantly into the left rear field and Audition is showing me the approximate levels I'll see from the speakers if I place the focal point (white dot) here:



I could mix it 100% into the left rear but if I want it not so far back into the rear soundfield, this is how the software adjusts. It doesn't use reverb or filters, strictly how much volume each speaker adds of that track.

As I read it, the numbering in the Lennon graphic is just for the legend, nothing to do with what the actual multitrack was and I expect they're just showing the location of the strings in the mix rather that saying "8 = violins, 9 = violas, 10 = cellos, etc)

Hope this makes sense and helps explain the process a little better!

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Old 09-06-2018, 01:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by GaragePoet View Post
i'm not seeing where those are listed. are you thinking of the elements mixes? because a few of those are also offered on the 2nd audio CD
Yeah it doesn't look like we're getting straight stems which would have been very cool (only seen a handful of artists do this, like UK band James did with one of their singles a few years ago so others could remix it and of course the Nine Inch Nails releases which also include a couple Jane's Addiction tracks).

I think on the second Blu-ray the 5.1 mixes of the strings may give us an idea of just how deep they got with the recording of 27 players but I don't expect we'll know for sure unless there are pics of the pre-bounce 1st gen tapes in the book and/or Paul Hicks or Cocker go into more detail on just how many tracks there were altogether.

Steven Wilson has stated he's working with some 70+ multitracks for the upcoming 5.1 mix of Tears for Fears' Seeds of Love, dang!
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Old 09-06-2018, 04:15 PM   #25
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I would hope that they wouldn't put the keyboard and lead guitar hard left and right like that, and I'd hope that the bass would be back with the mains, not in the center channel like they're showing it. Your screen cap indicates a spread across multiple speakers. I would also also hope that they wouldn't make the rears mono like that. The whole point of a multichannel mix is to create stereo pairs between left and right and front and back. It isn't to put a discrete sound into each speaker. That diagram is to a multichannel mix as a stick figure is to Hulk Hogan. It doesn't come close to representing a real mix.

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Old 09-07-2018, 08:04 PM   #26
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I would hope that they wouldn't put the keyboard and lead guitar hard left and right like that, and I'd hope that the bass would be back with the mains, not in the center channel like they're showing it. Your screen cap indicates a spread across multiple speakers. I would also also hope that they wouldn't make the rears mono like that. The whole point of a multichannel mix is to create stereo pairs between left and right and front and back. It isn't to put a discrete sound into each speaker. That diagram is to a multichannel mix as a stick figure is to Hulk Hogan. It doesn't come close to representing a real mix.
Yikes on the bolded! We'll have to just disagree as that's not the point at all, in fact your philosophy would ruin the vast majority of my 100+ surround discs! Do you have a couple examples of titles that do that I could check out?

My fave multichannel mixes absolutely have elements monoed into each speaker. One great example which is additionally one of my favorite surround demo tracks is the final track from Joe Satriani's "Strange Beautiful Music" (http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/710) called "You Saved My Life" - towards the end of the song are four distinct guitar leads and each one occupies one of the mains (every channel but centre) so a quad mix on the guitars, it's pure dead brilliant!

They're not suggesting the bass is only mixed into the centre channel, they're mixing it very narrow in the mix centrally as it doesn't need to be mixed wide - if you have the bass at identical volumes in only your left and right speakers crossed over into the LFE around 65Hz or so, it will appear where you see it in the diagram...dead centre in the surround image. When someone listens to a good stereo set up with a centre channel in the middle turned off, lead vocals will appear to come from that speaker. That's where the imaging should be. Same concept here.

The vast majority of Pearl Jam's Ten has Stone in one channel and Mike in the other, works great when playing two different things. Lots of GNR the same way, Slash on one side and Izzy on the other (G N R Lies?)

Yeah I have no problem with specific placements in the surround field, there is so much going on in Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral" that countless discretely mixed elements truly allows the sound to open up and you to disappear into the mix. That chainsaw like sound at the end of "Closer" screams from the front left around the room counter-clockwise diappearing about half way into the front right before it begins again.

Bob Marley's Exodus, the talk-box guitar lines in the final 4 mins of the song when it jams out, they ebb from the front left along the wall slowly disappearing into the left rear.

I don't like stuff that ping pongs about although it can occasionally work (the portamento synth solo at the end of the 5.1 mix of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's Lucky Man mixed by Steven Wilson) but have no issue with elements being discretely mixed into individual channels or where tasteful elements revolving around the mix. The end of the opening track of Beck's Sea Change you whole room feels like it's blasting off in a spaceship (he is a Scientologist!)

Seems like most of the peeps at surround-specific websites understand what the diagram is showing, but they're not going to make sense to everyone. I think once the title is in hand, you'll understand better what it represents.

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Old 09-09-2018, 05:36 PM   #27
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I have ordered the Ultimate set from Amazon UK. Is it safe to assume the Blu-Rays will be region-free?
I ordered mine from the UK as well, and also hoping it's region free. Although I have a region free player in another room, it's not the one I usually play/watch music on. I ordered from MusicVaultz, which has a disclaimer that everything they sell is PAL/Zone B. But I can't find anything on the net about this set and region codes. Fingers crossed! I'll report back once it arrives.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:37 PM   #28
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Do you have a couple examples of titles that do that I could check out?
It was common in the early days of quad to put each instrument in its own channel. That led to some very thin sounding mixes. The first Chicago quad album has the horns all in one side of the rear and they sound much less powerful than the stereo mix. That "four corners" mixing philosophy was pretty primitive. Most modern 5.1 mixes pair channels to create depth and to fill the room with sound. When channels are paired with a stereo spread between them, you can create immersive effects. In Sgt Pepper Good Morning, the fox hunt sound effects cross from front right to left rear, going right through the middle of the room. One of the Elton John SACDs has a guitar solo that starts in the center channel and moves forward as it's playing to the center of the room. I was listening to a multichannel album by Little Feat the other day where they had a stereo recording of a piano with the bass notes on the left and the high notes on the right. They shifted it 90 degrees so the high notes were in the front of the room and the bass notes were in the rear. Kraftwerk's Catalogue which was mixed in Atmos has no discrete channels at all. Everything ls carefully placed within the sound field. Object based mixing is where the future of multichannel is going. The center speaker usually contains both discrete and paired sound. The vocals are often only in the center channel, but the center also contains the phantom center from the two front mains as well. In that diagram, it shows the mains extending behind the center channel and the bass doesn't extend to the left or right mains at all. I just think that the graphic was created by someone in the marketing department who doesn't know much about multichannel. I can't imagine a mix being done with that layout.

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Old 09-11-2018, 04:01 AM   #29
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I hope that graphic isn't to be taken literally. I would expect there would be ambient fill in the rears and some spill from the left and right to other channels so it doesn't sound ping pong. And why would you put the bass in the center channel with the vocals? Shouldn't that be in the mains with the drums. This also shows that the two rears are paired as mono. I can see the lead guitar and the slide guitar being mono, but wouldn't the keyboards be recorded as stereo? I'm not seeing here what is making you excited.
There are two approaches to multichannel mixes. One is to put the listener in the audience and in that case, the surrounds have time delay or echo or reverb and the rear is mostly ambience. The other approach is to put the listener on the stage or in the recording studio. That looks like the approach taken here, if the diagram is real. Nothing wrong with that.

Bass is almost always in the center channel because bass is almost always recorded mono. It's recorded mono because low frequencies have long wavelengths and therefore lack perceived directionality. Even in a 2-channel system bass is recorded mono and will appear in the phantom center channel.

Keyboards can be stereo or not. That's up to the mixer and/or producer.

Ping-pong stereo is not simply the fact that sounds are discretely put into channels. Ping-pong stereo meant that you moved or panned sounds from speaker to speaker to emphasize the stereo effect, which was a big deal in the early days of stereo.

In most modern 2-channel recordings, there's almost no stereo at all. In many, most of the stereo is not much more than the stereo echo return. In a 2-channel system, you can hear this for yourself by creating a cable set that reverses the phase of one channel and then combines the signal to mono. Anything recorded mono cancels out and what's left is only the stereo portion (the difference between the signals). Plenty there on older stereo recordings, almost nothing on modern stereo recordings.

At the AES Convention years ago, I heard a multichannel mix of Yellow Submarine that put discrete sounds into different speakers. I thought it sounded really terrific because you really hear what each musician was doing.

The other approach to multichannel is to create sound fields, which is what you seem to prefer. Nothing wrong with that either, but it's a different (but the usual) approach.

Personally, I was a bit disappointed with the 5.1 mixes released with the big Sgt. Pepper box. I thought they could have been more aggressive mixing from the original 4-tracks, although maybe they bounced so much to create pre-mixes and free up tracks, that nothing much was really discrete. It will be interesting to see if they take a more aggressive approach in the supposedly forthcoming White Album box.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
There are two approaches to multichannel mixes. One is to put the listener in the audience and in that case, the surrounds have time delay or echo or reverb and the rear is mostly ambience. The other approach is to put the listener on the stage or in the recording studio. That looks like the approach taken here, if the diagram is real. Nothing wrong with that.

Bass is almost always in the center channel because bass is almost always recorded mono. It's recorded mono because low frequencies have long wavelengths and therefore lack perceived directionality. Even in a 2-channel system bass is recorded mono and will appear in the phantom center channel.

Keyboards can be stereo or not. That's up to the mixer and/or producer.

Ping-pong stereo is not simply the fact that sounds are discretely put into channels. Ping-pong stereo meant that you moved or panned sounds from speaker to speaker to emphasize the stereo effect, which was a big deal in the early days of stereo.

In most modern 2-channel recordings, there's almost no stereo at all. In many, most of the stereo is not much more than the stereo echo return. In a 2-channel system, you can hear this for yourself by creating a cable set that reverses the phase of one channel and then combines the signal to mono. Anything recorded mono cancels out and what's left is only the stereo portion (the difference between the signals). Plenty there on older stereo recordings, almost nothing on modern stereo recordings.

At the AES Convention years ago, I heard a multichannel mix of Yellow Submarine that put discrete sounds into different speakers. I thought it sounded really terrific because you really hear what each musician was doing.

The other approach to multichannel is to create sound fields, which is what you seem to prefer. Nothing wrong with that either, but it's a different (but the usual) approach.

Personally, I was a bit disappointed with the 5.1 mixes released with the big Sgt. Pepper box. I thought they could have been more aggressive mixing from the original 4-tracks, although maybe they bounced so much to create pre-mixes and free up tracks, that nothing much was really discrete. It will be interesting to see if they take a more aggressive approach in the supposedly forthcoming White Album box.
This is what was so frustrating about Peppers, they kept all the original 4-track pre-bounce recordings throughout the recording of the album. We never got an actual total # of how many individual multitracks this allowed them to work from, but knowing it was substantially more than 4 and the very timid "honoring the mono mix" approach they chose to use, frustrating to no end.

The Love DVD-A that was limited to just the 4-track master seems to have managed a more discrete approach to the Peppers material than the 50th anniversary 5.1 mix did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
It was common in the early days of quad to put each instrument in its own channel. That led to some very thin sounding mixes. The first Chicago quad album has the horns all in one side of the rear and they sound much less powerful than the stereo mix. That "four corners" mixing philosophy was pretty primitive. Most modern 5.1 mixes pair channels to create depth and to fill the room with sound. When channels are paired with a stereo spread between them, you can create immersive effects. In Sgt Pepper Good Morning, the fox hunt sound effects cross from front right to left rear, going right through the middle of the room. One of the Elton John SACDs has a guitar solo that starts in the center channel and moves forward as it's playing to the center of the room. I was listening to a multichannel album by Little Feat the other day where they had a stereo recording of a piano with the bass notes on the left and the high notes on the right. They shifted it 90 degrees so the high notes were in the front of the room and the bass notes were in the rear. Kraftwerk's Catalogue which was mixed in Atmos has no discrete channels at all. Everything ls carefully placed within the sound field. Object based mixing is where the future of multichannel is going.
All Atmos tracks use the very fact that Atmos IS discrete, and has the option of using 128 discrete channels, to place those sounds carefully in the sound field. Object-based mixing is only possible with such accuracy because of discrete channels.

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Old 09-11-2018, 09:36 PM   #31
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Personally, I was a bit disappointed with the 5.1 mixes released with the big Sgt. Pepper box. I thought they could have been more aggressive mixing from the original 4-tracks.
I'll let you in on a secret. There is a mastering error on the Sgt Pepper multichannel mix. The rear channels are attenuated -6dB. If you boost the rears +6dB, it is a completely different sounding mix with immersive sound and object based placement in the middle of the room. The fox hunt in Good Morning sounds completely different if you boost the rears. It is a balanced diagonal pan crossing the middle of the room. I've found this same -6dB attenuation on two other multichannel releases. I think it has something to do with some technical adjustment that is supposed to be made in mastering, but sometimes it slips through the cracks.

Try boosting the rears +6dB on Sgt Pepper and you'll hear the difference. It is a huge improvement.

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Old 09-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #32
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Down to $80.74 on Amazon US. I pre-ordered the deluxe set. Here's hoping for further price reductions. With the new Bowie box, Jethro Tull's This Was release, Hendrix, The Band, etc. this is a tough time to keep money in my wallet.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:58 PM   #33
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Down to $80.74 on Amazon US. I pre-ordered the deluxe set. Here's hoping for further price reductions. With the new Bowie box, Jethro Tull's This Was release, Hendrix, The Band, etc. this is a tough time to keep money in my wallet.
ugh, i forgot about the Bowie box... prob gonna have to wait a bit on that one. still anxiously awaiting the official announcement of the promised Beatles "White Album" 50th anniversary set...

Paul McCartney confirms The Beatles’ White Album 50th anniversary release
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:01 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I'll let you in on a secret. There is a mastering error on the Sgt Pepper multichannel mix. The rear channels are attenuated -6dB. If you boost the rears +6dB, it is a completely different sounding mix with immersive sound and object based placement in the middle of the room. The fox hunt in Good Morning sounds completely different if you boost the rears. It is a balanced diagonal pan crossing the middle of the room. I've found this same -6dB attenuation on two other multichannel releases. I think it has something to do with some technical adjustment that is supposed to be made in mastering, but sometimes it slips through the cracks.

Try boosting the rears +6dB on Sgt Pepper and you'll hear the difference. It is a huge improvement.
I know I posted a similar comment elsewhere, but why create an actual object based mix of 'Sgt. Pepper' exclusively for a Dolby Cinema theatrical presentation, but NOT include it in the Box Set ?!? that mix and how and where sound/music cues seem to crawl along the side walls, behind you and over you to such startling effect - it simply decimated the 5.1 mix
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:38 PM   #35
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Even though it only has six channels, the placement in the sound field is the same. On my system it comes across incredibly well with sound placed firmly in the middle of the room sometimes. On Good Morning, the fox hunt crosses diagonally across the room perfectly. I'm sure the Atmos mix is more precise, but I find that Atmos mixes down mixed to 5.1 sound great. The Kraftwerk Atmos mix throws sound all over the place on my 5.1 system. It's one of the best examples of using the sound field that I've ever heard.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
Even though it only has six channels, the placement in the sound field is the same. On my system it comes across incredibly well with sound placed firmly in the middle of the room sometimes. On Good Morning, the fox hunt crosses diagonally across the room perfectly. I'm sure the Atmos mix is more precise, but I find that Atmos mixes down mixed to 5.1 sound great. The Kraftwerk Atmos mix throws sound all over the place on my 5.1 system. It's one of the best examples of using the sound field that I've ever heard.
no complaints for me either, that mix even on my attic 6.1 sound system had my jaw on the floor. Some mixes can sound kind of gimmicky, but the sound design for the Kraftwerk songs feels like a giant bubble of sound, and it helps that with the genre, electronic music can be object based mixed to more inventive effect than say with traditional musical instruments.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:32 PM   #37
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I find that even though it isn't true Atmos on my 5.1 system, the fold down ends up with a result that is better than most native 5.1 mixes. The Sgt Pepper mix has that same feeling in certain songs.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:24 PM   #38
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Finding out a little more about what the raw 5.1 studio mixes will be from the new video posted - this sounds really cool for the purposes of a raw studio mix like you're sitting in a room with each player around you isolated - obviously not gonna work hard panning drums to a surround channel for a real 5.1 studio mix, but I understand what they mean now by "raw studio mix".


Placement within the surround field for the raw studio 5.1 mix of How Do You Sleeep (Takes 5 & 6) from Blu-ray Disc 2 in the 4CD+2BD set:

Front Centre - John Lennon: electric guitar, vocal
Front Left - Nicky Hopkins: electric piano
Front Right - George Harrison: electric slide guitar
Surround Left - Alan White: drums
Surround Right - Klaus Voormann: bass
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:13 PM   #39
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I hope those are generalized locations. If they do isolate each player in his own channel, it's going to sound thin and without any atmosphere. And putting the bass in a rear channel is downright stupid because most people have their subwoofer up front and smaller speakers in the rear. Bass management will pull the bass up front automatically.
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I hope those are generalized locations. If they do isolate each player in his own channel, it's going to sound thin and without any atmosphere. And putting the bass in a rear channel is downright stupid because most people have their subwoofer up front and smaller speakers in the rear. Bass management will pull the bass up front automatically.
“Raw isolated” doesn’t seem vague to me.

From the incessant negativity and strong language I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest this release may not be your cup of Typhoo?

The lowest note on a bass guitar is a little over 41Hz, I have the same towers for rears as I have for fronts so it’s certainly not going to sound thin in my room or in most people’s rooms that were designed with multichannel music playback as the priority...it’s always been the standard to recommend five identical speakers for 5.1 surround playback just as most surround mixers like Tom Petty’s friend Ryan Ulyate have in their studios; the atmosphere is going to be exactly as they intend it to be, a facsimile of being in the room with everyone playing together.

I love the 4.0 quad mix of Tubular Bells, the bass transitions around the field and with four identical towers the guitar sounds the same regardless of whether it’s coming through the front left or right rear. So I’m golden and really looking forward to hearing these downright stupid raw isolated 5.1 mixes.
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