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View Poll Results: Rate the movie (if you have actually seen it)
One Star 88 8.28%
Two Stars 167 15.71%
Three Stars 276 25.96%
Four Stars 362 34.05%
Five Stars 170 15.99%
Voters: 1063. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-22-2021, 12:01 AM   #28221
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There's a difference between a director's work not being your cup of tea and that director just being a poor filmmaker.

I, personally, don't like any of Lynch's films except for Dune and The Elephant Man. I've tried watching most of them but couldn't get into any of them except for the two I listed above. But that doesn't mean I consider him a bad filmmaker. Quite the contrary. I can see his talent and I can see what about his films appeals to people..
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Old 01-22-2021, 01:08 AM   #28222
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BvS?
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:15 AM   #28223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blu blood View Post
And yet it succeeded with others(not me, to be clear).

I'm also not sure how a movie compares to other movies in the same genre speaks to objective quality, that seems like relative quality to me.

There are any number of beloved cult classics that many would attempt to argue as objectively bad movies and yet they have large fan bases. It's not like there's an objective checklist or set of metrics that is widely agreed upon which to measure quality of movies.
Movies become enduring classics due to social phenomenons that are beyond the actual quality of the movie. Being good might help but there's no direct correlation. This is related to what I said earlier, people often confuse "good" with "popular" and viceversa.

There's a checklist. You can see it at the end of every movie: the credits. Evaluating movies is not as metaphysical as we would like to believe. You just go through every aspect of film-making and evaluate the work on its own terms. A movie is either well-written, well photographed, well-edited or not.

We all would like to see our favourite movies receive the "It's good" seal of approval. It's only natural as that represents by extension a validation of ourselves. I think whoever appeals to subjectivity is not aware that said subjectivity is brought by himself via his own expectations, biases and demands.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:32 AM   #28224
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Originally Posted by captveg View Post
Now, let's get down to the real meat of whether it is good or not - the character drama. If one is interested in a Batman heading off a towards a point of no return, going from righteous vigilante to unhinged betrayer of his ideals, and/or if one is interested in a still new at the hero job Superman seeking to trust his intuition for what actions are good and how to ground himself to not second guess those actions in the face of wavering public opinion, then the film does a good job in exploring the drama of those scenarios. If you don't care bout these things, or if you need to have a more perfect justification for exploring these ideas than the so-so political plot provided by the film, then the film is going to likely drop in the "is it good or not" evaluation. More than anything else I see this being the biggest sticking point - the relationship between these dramatic ideas and the plot driving them. Someone like myself who cares far, far more about enjoying the drama rather than the plot providing the groundwork is more likely to say it's a good film. Someone who finds the plot too lacking and not enough of a groundwork to hold up the drama is more likely to say it's a bad film. This is the big dividing line. The Martha moment is the poster child for this. I am less bothered by the scene's inherent plotting faults that often get brought up because I care far more about the dramatic implications of the scene, whereas many people cannot get into the dramatic implications because the awkward plotting/setup for the drama fails them. I'm not sure what the objective qualifying ratio between plot:drama should be for a film to objectively be declared "good" or "bad" is, I just know that in my evaluation it clears that bar towards the "good" side.
You bring solid points. I would only argue that in a plot-driven story (which in this case, it is) the drama can only be as effective as the way it's presented by the plot, the writing, the acting, the movie itself. Otherwise the drama will fail.

It happened to me all the time when I acted in my school's play in sixth grade. I was dead serious with my performance but I only made the audience laugh.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:53 AM   #28225
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Originally Posted by ahossein79 View Post
This will be the last response I make addressing this topic because I personally feel strongly one way and I know other people feel the opposite way. Poor analogy with the plumber and a film maker. Plumbing requires a mechanism which is quantified ultimately by science. Art is interpretative ie film can't be quantified or measured. Anything that involves mathematics or science can be assessed in a black/white, right/wrong way. I don't see how that concept is so difficult to fathom but we live in a world where if a consensus of idiots believe something it must be true because majority rules, because you know if it got more likes only like it has to be the truth.....yeah! Lastly I don't give a dam, and I'm venturing most people don't care if you judge them, get off your high horse
Let's take your premise to its logical consequence: If art is subjective then there's no merit in creating any of it, nothing to be earned, nothing to achieve, nothing special to produce. In your world, there's no merit in creating works of art because it's pointless to put a value on them and measure them against each other, it's all subjective. This is good news for me, it means I'm just a good a film-maker as Zack Snyder. Whatever crappy movie I'm capable of producing will find a home in your collection. Now, if only a producer gave me 300 million dollars to make it happen...
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:58 AM   #28226
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Originally Posted by Darthvaderrocks View Post
I'm sorry but this is argument does not hold up.

Lynch is a great artist, he's only talented on visual storytelling (show don't tell, technique) but he is by far the most overrated director of all time.

In his entire career he never wrote anything besides archetypes and one dimensional fanatics with no character arcs, and has his movies filled with plot holes and unexplained events. The gimmick of the mystery man and creepy guy also has gotten boring, especially since he does not give any explanation to that. Do you want to see a real genius behind the camera? You can watch Terrence Malick or Stanley Kubrick.

Lynch has only one true masterpiece which is Mulholland Drive, everything he has made with the exception of Lost Highway is just "good" or straight up bad.
The name of David Lynch was brought to this discussion only as an example of a director who makes very different films than Snyder's. Judging either of them against the standards set by the other is unfair.

Whether David Lynch is "a good director" or not is beyond this particular argument.
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:34 AM   #28227
DR Herbert West DR Herbert West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrestedDevelopment View Post
Watched Mulholland Drive. Didn't like it.

Watched Eraserhead. Didn't like it.

Made it through 4 eps of Twin Peaks before calling it quits.

I just can't get into Lynch's work.
Try Blue Velvet.
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:43 AM   #28228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthvaderrocks View Post
I'm sorry but this is argument does not hold up.

Lynch is a great artist, he's only talented on visual storytelling (show don't tell, technique) but he is by far the most overrated director of all time.

In his entire career he never wrote anything besides archetypes and one dimensional fanatics with no character arcs, and has his movies filled with plot holes and unexplained events. The gimmick of the mystery man and creepy guy also has gotten boring, especially since he does not give any explanation to that. Do you want to see a real genius behind the camera? You can watch Terrence Malick or Stanley Kubrick.

Lynch has only one true masterpiece which is Mulholland Drive, everything he has made with the exception of Lost Highway is just "good" or straight up bad.
Batman has a character arc in BvS.
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:45 AM   #28229
DR Herbert West DR Herbert West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRLM View Post
Let's take your premise to its logical consequence: If art is subjective then there's no merit in creating any of it, nothing to be earned, nothing to achieve, nothing special to produce. In your world, there's no merit in creating works of art because it's pointless to put a value on them and measure them against each other, it's all subjective. This is good news for me, it means I'm just a good a film-maker as Zack Snyder. Whatever crappy movie I'm capable of producing will find a home in your collection. Now, if only a producer gave me 300 million dollars to make it happen...
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Old 01-22-2021, 08:28 AM   #28230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRLM View Post
Let's take your premise to its logical consequence: If art is subjective then there's no merit in creating any of it, nothing to be earned, nothing to achieve, nothing special to produce. In your world, there's no merit in creating works of art because it's pointless to put a value on them and measure them against each other, it's all subjective. This is good news for me, it means I'm just a good a film-maker as Zack Snyder. Whatever crappy movie I'm capable of producing will find a home in your collection. Now, if only a producer gave me 300 million dollars to make it happen...
If nothing we do matters then all that matters is what we do, because thatís all there is.
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Old 01-22-2021, 09:09 AM   #28231
Darthvaderrocks Darthvaderrocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy View Post
You know, the literal point of filmmaking.

“David Lynch is an overrated filmmaker because he’s only talented at filmmaking”.
Exactly, because he is a great director. Being overrated =\= being a bad director.

My actual criticism is that people say that everything Lynch touches becomes gold, he does have some quality works but if we look at how his movies were recieved atleast 4 of them were divisive. Dune, Fire Walk With Me, Wild At Heart and Inland Empire.

The only movies I loved from him, were personal stories and mostly because of his great visual style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreasyBear View Post
Lynch would be silly not to take advice from the illustrious cinephile extraordinaire, darthvaderrocks.
Mulholland Drive *****

Lost Highway ****

Fire Walk With Me ***

A Straight Story ***

Elephant Men ***

Wild At Heart **1/2

Dune **

Inland Empire **

Blue Velvet *

Eraserhead *

Bonus: Twin Peaks season 1 *****

Twin Peaks season 2 ****

Twin Peaks season 3 ***

He's hit or miss for me, mostly because of those issues. I understand those who love Lynch, and he definitely has talent but i actively dislike his old stuff so I wouldn't say "not my cup of tea".

Quote:
Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
Batman has a character arc in BvS.
Sure, but that wasn't my point.

Last edited by Darthvaderrocks; 01-22-2021 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 01-22-2021, 11:58 AM   #28232
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Mulholland Drive has an absolutely superb casting scene which is a total subversion of expectation. That scene alone is worth the price of admission. One of the best scenes in a movie I have ever seen.
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Old 01-22-2021, 01:24 PM   #28233
Darthvaderrocks Darthvaderrocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRLM View Post
The name of David Lynch was brought to this discussion only as an example of a director who makes very different films than Snyder's. Judging either of them against the standards set by the other is unfair.

Whether David Lynch is "a good director" or not is beyond this particular argument.
I understand, but it does not hold up because Lynch should be compared with directors with a similiar style ex: Bunuel, Cronenberg, Carpenter.

And also, I like Snyder but even despite its flaws Lynch's haircut has more talent than all Snyder's works put together.
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Old 01-22-2021, 03:43 PM   #28234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthvaderrocks View Post
I understand, but it does not hold up because Lynch should be compared with directors with a similiar style ex: Bunuel, Cronenberg, Carpenter.

And also, I like Snyder but even despite its flaws Lynch's haircut has more talent than all Snyder's works put together.
That's an opinion, not a fact.
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:02 PM   #28235
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Lynch's hair > Everything in the known universe
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:40 PM   #28236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR Herbert West View Post
Lynch's hair > Everything in the known universe
This the truth! Itís all seven wonders of the world!
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Old 01-22-2021, 06:11 PM   #28237
Darthvaderrocks Darthvaderrocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
That's an opinion, not a fact.
Yeah, that's my opinion. I said that because I still believe there is an extreme gap between these two directors, but the more I think about Lynch's first couple movies, the more I question just how high he deserves to rank.

He's still a great director, and I'm definitely gonna continue watching his movies, it's just that I don't think I'd put him so high on my favorites anymore. That's why I find him overrated, he definitely learned how to write characters and storylines after Twin Peaks. But I still hated Inland Empire.
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:02 PM   #28238
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Yes, BvS is a good movie.

= best (favorite)
= great (loved)
= good (liked)
= bad (did not like)
= terrible (hated)
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:57 PM   #28239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRLM View Post
Movies become enduring classics due to social phenomenons that are beyond the actual quality of the movie. Being good might help but there's no direct correlation. This is related to what I said earlier, people often confuse "good" with "popular" and viceversa.

There's a checklist. You can see it at the end of every movie: the credits. Evaluating movies is not as metaphysical as we would like to believe. You just go through every aspect of film-making and evaluate the work on its own terms. A movie is either well-written, well photographed, well-edited or not.

We all would like to see our favourite movies receive the "It's good" seal of approval. It's only natural as that represents by extension a validation of ourselves. I think whoever appeals to subjectivity is not aware that said subjectivity is brought by himself via his own expectations, biases and demands.
At the end of the day, the objective of any work of art is to entertain, or at least evoke a response from an audience. If a movie "objectively" fails the quality test of certain technical aspects but still finds an audience that appreciates it as a movie, had it not succeeded at it's base objective?

I'm sorry, you can absolutely rate movies on things like how technically sound the filmmaking is but that is not inherent to objective "goodness". I fully understand the idea of popularity versus quality, but I'm just not interested in telling people that things they like, like movies, music, books etc are "objectively bad". But if that's your thing, go nuts, I guess...
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Old 01-22-2021, 08:44 PM   #28240
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BvS Ultimate is one of my favorite comic movies. I absolutely love this movie on bluray, the way it should have been released in theaters. It's so epic and grander than anything Marvel has every produced, and I do really enjoy the MCU. This movie just feels epic, as cliched as that sounds. When Flash shows up I get cold chills. This scene and the preceding Knightmare scene just blow me away. They elude to a larger universe that we just didn't get because of the WB execs killing the theatrical movie and subsequent Justice League.

I can't wait to watch Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Snyder Cut JL in order. Chills!
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