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Old 12-19-2017, 11:35 PM   #3301
BWBODDY BWBODDY is offline
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Originally Posted by kylor View Post
Well he was always very hans on with everything.
And he was boning her .........
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:36 PM   #3302
KcMsterpce KcMsterpce is offline
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Your points are valid and well-argued, and I see where you're coming from.

But as far as Luke recognizing his mistakes and trying to to better, I think Luke could have made a logical case that isolating himself on the island WAS better for the galaxy. What happened when he tried to use his powers for good? He got a bunch of brilliant, promising young Jedi murdered, and then his training empowered Ren and his disciples to terrorize the galaxy. Logically speaking, it would have been MUCH better for everyone if Luke had just isolated himself on the island in the first place instead of trying to re-establish the Jedi order. I wouldn't blame Luke for thinking that, because in many ways it was actually true.

And what's he going to do to make things better? Train more Jedi? How could he trust himself with that? Hunt down and kill Ren and his disciples? That's pretty grim for a Jedi. Try to turn them back to the light side? But he intimately trained them all in the first place. He knows them as well as anyone. If he was that close to them during their training and he STILL couldn't keep them from the dark side, why would he be the one to be able to turn them back now, when the dark side was now much stronger in them? And is he going to ask other people to risk their lives to take out the monsters he created?

I get that you wish the character had done something more positive than seclude himself, but from a human perspective and a solid narrative foundation, I think his behavior in the movie made a lot of sense.

And, I think that your point was recognized in the movie itself---his seclusion and abandoning of the force was NOT very heroic, and that made his final redemption more powerful.

I agree with Taikero. :P

I get that many like Luke deciding to abandon everything. OK, cool. However, if anything, I don't see Luke lighting up his saber over a sleeping Kylo. That kind of action, to me, feels like a way to write the story that then allows a cascade of events to "justify" TFA's place with Kylo.
Luke fearing Kylo's influence to the dark side, yes.
So for me, the motivations that caused Kylo to kill all the padawans, etc... was based off of a fundamentally flawed moment.

I would have been more forgiving if Luke - in a flashback - spoke with Kylo and said "I sense much fear in you. Darkness. Like your grandfather. Let's work through this together." Then, Kylo does what he does best - throw a tantrum, kill all the kids and run off.
- Heck, Kylo could then tell his side of the story in his own flashback to Rey (like in the movie) and show Luke saying, "There is darkness in you. I can feel you embracing it... like your grandfather, Vader." - or something.

Having Luke try to actually physically KILL Kylo is something I'll never accept as an appropriate action for his character. This is the man who was able to save his own father. After Ben Kenobi failed 30 years prior. In both instances, it was about a Jedi trying to help someone falling over the edge to come back to the light. Luke would understand that it wouldn't be "easy" to save Kylo, but I think he'd TRY. He wouldn't consider killing his own nephew while he was sleeping.

So then, maybe Luke would seclude himself and be in the same spot he's at for this movie. I would have been better with that.
But this is one of TONS of details that I think were handled inappropriately. A lot of the places where characters are at don't really bother me, but HOW they GOT there does bother me lol

Last edited by KcMsterpce; 12-19-2017 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:36 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by BWBODDY View Post
And he was boning her .........
He used the force.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:43 PM   #3304
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Well he was always very hans on with everything.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:47 PM   #3305
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It's the Batman vs. Superman of Star Wars movies.
The difference is that most critics loved TLJ.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:54 PM   #3306
KcMsterpce KcMsterpce is offline
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He used the force.
lol
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:55 PM   #3307
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Originally Posted by KcMsterpce View Post

Having Luke try to actually physically KILL Kylo is something I'll never accept as an appropriate action for his character. This is the man who was able to save his own father. After Ben Kenobi failed 30 years prior. In both instances, it was about a Jedi trying to help someone falling over the edge to come back to the light. Luke would understand that it wouldn't be "easy" to save Kylo, but I think he'd TRY. He wouldn't consider killing his own nephew while he was sleeping.
But I think Luke did say in the movie that he sensed darkness in Ren like he had never sensed before---and coming from Luke, who had close contact with both Vader and Palpatine, that's saying quite a lot.

I hate to use the old Hitler analogy, but would it be immoral for someone to murder Hitler in his youth, if they had some real premonition of his future deeds? I don't know--I don't think that's an easy moral question to answer, and I have no problem with Luke struggling with it.

Edit: I can't remember exactly, but didn't Luke also say that he had already sensed that Kylo was turning to the dark side? From that, I think it's fair to assume that if Luke recognized that then he certainly did try to turn him away from that before he thought about killing him. I certainly didn't get the sense that using the lightsaber against Kylo was the first option on his list.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:55 PM   #3308
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So apparently Rian Johnson wrote the script for this before The Force Awakens came out. It seems obvious now that I think about it (given the relatively small two-year gap between big films such as these), but it may explain his nonchalant attitude to killing off Snoke, as well as Kylo's revelation about Rey's parents. Maybe he would've done things differently if he'd absorbed the fan reaction to The Force Awakens.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:00 AM   #3309
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So apparently Rian Johnson wrote the script for this before The Force Awakens came out. It seems obvious now that I think about it (given the relatively small two-year gap between big films such as these), but it may explain his nonchalant attitude to killing off Snoke, as well as Kylo's revelation about Rey's parents. Maybe he would've done things differently if he'd absorbed the fan reaction to The Force Awakens.
I re-watched TFA tonight to see if it would help in adding some much needed context and clarity to my feelings on TLJ. It didn't, lol. But having seen the admittedly excellent scene where Rey had that vision when she touched Luke's lightsabre, I can't for the life of me explain how RJ managed to jettison most of those potentially amazing future story possibilities presented in that vision. There's no way Rey's parents were designed to be randoms. There's double-bluffing the audience, which is fine; I don't have a problem with subverting expectations, but c'mon!
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:07 AM   #3310
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Originally Posted by dgoswald View Post
I re-watched TFA tonight to see if it would help in adding some much needed context and clarity to my feelings on TLJ. It didn't, lol. But having seen the admittedly excellent scene where Rey had that vision when she touched Luke's lightsabre, I can't for the life of me explain how RJ managed to jettison most of those potentially amazing future story possibilities presented in that vision. There's no way Rey's parents were designed to be randoms. There's double-bluffing the audience, which is fine; I don't have a problem with subverting expectations, but c'mon!
You're making me wanna re-watch The Force Awakens.

Don't do this to me.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:07 AM   #3311
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But I think Luke did say in the movie that he sensed darkness in Ren like he had never sensed before---and coming from Luke, who had close contact with both Vader and Palpatine, that's saying quite a lot.
I don't know/remember. You could be right.
But once again, there is a conflicting issue here. If Luke really did think Kylo could NOT be saved, then TFA showed unequivocally - and even TLJ as well - that Kylo was not beyond saving, and Luke has become a stupid, cynical old man.
- Kylo is constantly throwing tantrums, which I believe is their way of expressing to the audience that he's terribly conflicted by turning to the dark side, and there is still something inside himself that is fighting the anger and hate.

- He still loves Han, and that entire scene is full of "Awkwaaarrd!" BUT he has a hard time killing his father. In a way, it was almost an accident-kinda-sorta-not-really. Another emphasis on Kylo's conflict between good and evil.

- He had a chance at the beginning of TLJ to blast his mother out of the ship and into space, but he lets go of the button. Instead, he let someone else take her out.

- He kills Snoke. Why wouldn't he embrace all the hate and anger within himself, allowing Snoke to help him become "like Vader", if Luke thought he was beyond saving?

There are other examples, but basically, if Luke thought the evil inside Kylo - ten years before events in TFA - was beyond saving, then why the hell is there STILL conflict within him even after killing all the kids and joining the First Order?
I don't understand.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:09 AM   #3312
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You're making me wanna re-watch The Force Awakens.

Don't do this to me.
I liked it a little more this time.

[Show spoiler]
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:11 AM   #3313
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How would Leia know they're a holographic projection if she and Kylo can physically pick them up?
If Leia can force fly back to a ship in space, I think she can tell the difference between real dice and projected dice.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:12 AM   #3314
dallywhitty dallywhitty is online now
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Originally Posted by dgoswald View Post
I liked it a little more this time.

[Show spoiler]
My experience with The Force Awakens perfectly mirrors my experience with Avatar: really liked it when I saw it in the cinema, but was bored shitless upon re-watching it on Blu-ray. I'm hoping a third viewing will fall somewhere between the two extremes. Who knows, maybe my appreciation of The Last Jedi will soften my stance on its predecessor.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:15 AM   #3315
Ky-Fi Ky-Fi is offline
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Originally Posted by KcMsterpce View Post
There are other examples, but basically, if Luke thought the evil inside Kylo - ten years before events in TFA - was beyond saving, then why the hell is there STILL conflict within him even after killing all the kids and joining the First Order?
I don't understand.
Good points. I guess I could argue that Luke hadn't given up all hope of him being saved, as, in the end, he decided not to kill Kylo. But I think maybe Luke thought that HE couldn't turn him back, and he didn't know who could. Han clearly couldn't.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:18 AM   #3316
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Originally Posted by dallywhitty View Post
My experience with The Force Awakens perfectly mirrors my experience with Avatar: really liked it when I saw it in the cinema, but was bored shitless upon re-watching it on Blu-ray. I'm hoping a third viewing will fall somewhere between the two extremes. Who knows, maybe my appreciation of The Last Jedi will soften my stance on its predecessor.
I've been stringent with my awarding of 2.5/5 to TFA since I watched it a few times at home. I felt there was nothing that could shake my stance on that film. But having seen TLJ (which I liked more than I disliked), I've bumped my TFA score to 3/5 after last night's re-watch. It still annoys the crap out of me, BUT there's a hell of a lot of potential that RJ could've mined for TLJ if he wasn't so concerned with being edgy.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:22 AM   #3317
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Some concerning numbers for The Last Jedi. (I know it will make a lot of money)....

Day 4 (Monday) comparison between TFA & TLJ....

The Force Awakens - $40.1 Million
The Last Jedi - $21.6 Million

That is a huge difference. We all expected for TLJ to do less, but the word of mouth has to be affecting the box office at this point. It's getting verbally trashed by a lot of people.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:27 AM   #3318
KcMsterpce KcMsterpce is offline
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Originally Posted by dgoswald View Post
I liked it a little more this time.

[Show spoiler]
Is that from THE IT CROWD? I forget.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:29 AM   #3319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestMan View Post
Some concerning numbers for The Last Jedi. (I know it will make a lot of money)....

Day 4 (Monday) comparison between TFA & TLJ....

The Force Awakens - $40.1 Million
The Last Jedi - $21.6 Million

That is a huge difference. We all expected for TLJ to do less, but the word of mouth has to be affecting the box office at this point. It's getting verbally trashed by a lot of people.
I saw TFA 2, maybe 3 times. I don't know if I'll see this one again, but not all in part to the movie. Blame AMC and their outrageous prices.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:32 AM   #3320
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Originally Posted by KcMsterpce View Post
Is that from THE IT CROWD? I forget.
It certainly is.
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