What "K" will you draw the line at?

[GaragePoet]

i actually believe physical media will mostly die out before too many of these 8K & higher discs even become widely available

[Vilya]

I actually believe that I will die long before physical media ever does. The persistent predictions about its imminent demise appear to have some kind of immortality as these get renewed year after year after year. I guess if one predicts "the end" endlessly they'll never be wrong in their own mind at least as it always could still happen.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

How can anyone with an open mind know how much more satisfaction/enjoyment they will get with even higher quality until they experience that higher quality (which I see as sapiendut original point)

I don't need to drive a Porsche to know it is unnecessary to my lifestyle. I don't need to live in a ten bedroom house to know it is too much. We make decisions all the time without experiencing what a more expensive option would be like.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

As for costs I get it a real quality 4k projector at this point in time is still very expensive and limited choices so I can understand someone buying his time but there is no need to denigrate someone else just because they have the money. It just comes off as sour grapes.

I've never denigrated anyone for their choices. Show me where I have? If someone has the extra money to splurge on items just because they can, more power to them. If someone saves their pennies to splurge on something they always wanted, more power to them. No sour grapes here at all.

I don't go into pro 4K UHD or HDR threads to say it is unnecessary or too much. But I have seen in plenty of threads asking the question of why other haven't adopted, and seen plenty of denigrating posts directed at those that have decided to stay pat.

"Sapiendut" insists in insinuating anyone not willing to upgrade or experience the higher quality presented is missing something. All I've done is given an alternate perspective. I think it is great for those that want to move up, but I also think it is fine for those that want to stay pat, even without experiencing the differences. So who is doing the denigrating here?

Going back to the car analogy. I'm sure a Porsche and Mercedes can provide a great ride, but what is the person's ultimate objective, a great ride or getting from point A to point B? For some it may both, for others it may be getting to where they are going, but in a Honda Accord, and that is fine. For movies, some may prefer spending on more content then the next innovation.

[sapiendut]

I’m not insinuating anything. Actually it is a fact that most don’t realize that by saying whatever format they are satisfied being considered as “great”, they are missing in the improvements the future will bring.

It’s not so much of the “k” but it’s the surrounding tech that the additional “k” brings to the table.

Just like the current 8K. It is not the K that matters, but one can’t get the high nit panel, better backlighting system and upscaling engine unless one gets an 8K TV.

Necessary? No. But saying current technology(or past) to be great is wrong. It is not an opinion, it’s not an insinuation, it is fact.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Necessary? No. But saying current technology(or past) to be great is wrong. It is not an opinion, it’s not an insinuation, it is fact.

So what you are saying is that anyone that says something is "great" (to them, after all it is just a personal opinion) because it satisfies their needs, they are wrong? They should just say it is "Okay" instead. Here we will just have to agree to disagree, since I believe society has provided some latitude there.

BTW, the definition of "great" is not defined as the best option available (I suppose that would be "greatest"). Sounds like you just have a pet peeve about this usage of "great".

Now who is being denigrating...Anthony P.

[sapiendut]

Currently there is no “great” video technology. “Great” is not subjective. All current consumer video are severely lossy. Like I said, until consumers can get frame by frame 13-bit compression with 4:4:4 chroma without the lossy subsampling, it is not great.

Again, that is fact, not opinion.

If you can be happy and satisfied with that, more power to you. But it doesn’t change the fact that the technology is not great.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by smithb

I don't need to drive a Porsche to know it is unnecessary to my lifestyle. I don't need to live in a ten bedroom house to know it is too much. We make decisions all the time without experiencing what a more expensive option would be like.



I've never denigrated anyone for their choices. Show me where I have? If someone has the extra money to splurge on items just because they can, more power to them. If someone saves their pennies to splurge on something they always wanted, more power to them. No sour grapes here at all.

I don't go into pro 4K UHD or HDR threads to say it is unnecessary or too much. But I have seen in plenty of threads asking the question of why other haven't adopted, and seen plenty of denigrating posts directed at those that have decided to stay pat.

"Sapiendut" insists in insinuating anyone not willing to upgrade or experience the higher quality presented is missing something. All I've done is given an alternate perspective. I think it is great for those that want to move up, but I also think it is fine for those that want to stay pat, even without experiencing the differences. So who is doing the denigrating here?

Going back to the car analogy. I'm sure a Porsche and Mercedes can provide a great ride, but what is the person's ultimate objective, a great ride or getting from point A to point B? For some it may both, for others it may be getting to where they are going, but in a Honda Accord, and that is fine. For movies, some may prefer spending on more content then the next innovation.

The issue with that is you are discussing the general mainstream’s habits when most of us in this forum want HT to replicate the cinema experience as closely as possible at home. Also, I think it’s impossible to say how many people buy 4K tv for innovation or just because it’s all that is available. To say less and less people are doing so? Well, do you have evidence of that? I suppose you could say that the masses still buying DVD is evidence but it’s also true that more and more people are buying or renting Digital in HD over SD despite a slight price difference. Am I correct in saying Apple don’t even carry a SD option anymore also?

Finally, innovation doesn’t have to mean resolution increases. It could mean television sets that are so flat, thy look like wall art, it could mean smart features or the ability to FaceTime with family or friends on the tv.
Heck, in the not too distant future, certain gaming streaming services will be seen as a huge selling point along with other gaming innovations.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The issue with that is you are discussing the general mainstream’s habits when most of us in this forum want HT to replicate the cinema experience as closely as possible at home.

This thread and like threads shows that while above the average consumer norm, there are differences in perspective of how far one has to go to satisfy that experience to one's specific needs, even within Blu-ray.com forum.

However, I get your point within this specific forum. My guess is that most responding that standard blu-ray is enough found interest in the title based on it appearing in the general frequent responses list on the main page, not by frequenting this forum directly.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Also, I think it’s impossible to say how many people buy 4K tv for innovation or just because it’s all that is available. To say less and less people are doing so? Well, do you have evidence of that? I suppose you could say that the masses still buying DVD is evidence but it’s also true that more and more people are buying or renting Digital in HD over SD despite a slight price difference. Am I correct in saying Apple don’t even carry a SD option anymore also?

I generalized off of the fact one is hard pressed to buy a TV that is not 4K, yet the sales of 4K media is actually very low in comparison to standard blu-ray and DVD. That may or may not be the best indicator, but it does I think provide some insight.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Finally, innovation doesn’t have to mean resolution increases. It could mean television sets that are so flat, thy look like wall art, it could mean smart features or the ability to FaceTime with family or friends on the tv.
Heck, in the not too distant future, certain gaming streaming services will be seen as a huge selling point along with other gaming innovations.

Absolutely agree, for me the home projection system and HD/blu-ray were the two biggest HT innovation. I wasn't limiting it to resolution. I have no current interest in HDR either.

I'm sure I will end up with a 4K projector eventually because it will become the new norm for projectors, as it is currently for TV's.

I recall in another thread where someone suggested I ditch my archaic 2K projector for the cheapest flat panel that supported UHD HDR, because it was more important than size. In that same thread some agreed that a sound bar was good enough. Just goes to show the variations of importance within the HT technologies available.

[Steedeel]

Yeah, well 4K disc is only in its very early stages so it’s not s fair comparison. Last year it was more advanced in sales than Blu-ray at the same time span. I don’t know the stats at the moment however.

Yeah, there are some differences in terms of how HQ some Home Cinema setups are and how important or how much of a priority they are. I had a discussion with a guy who stated he loved his HT. it was a 42 inch tv on a wall, with a sound bar (in his bedroom). To me, that’s not HT, it’s a tv on a wall.

That’s just my stance.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yeah, there are some differences in terms of how HQ some Home Cinema setups are and how important or how much of a priority they are. I had a discussion with a guy who stated he loved his HT. it was a 42 inch tv on a wall, with a sound bar (in his bedroom). To me, that’s not HT, it’s a tv on a wall.

That’s just my stance.

The general definition appears to be:

"an entertainment setup consisting of television and video equipment designed to reproduce at home the experience of being in a movie theater."

Which can lead to a lot of interpretation. This thread is focused on video, but what about other aspects, such as audio, screen size, and viewing environment. Some may go as far as to state that without a dedicated, light and sound controlled environment, with a minimal of distractions it isn't a home theater. It gets to be a slippery slope quickly.

What is more important, being the best in one or two categories but only adequate in the rest or a tier down from the top available across the board? That what gets tricky when a thread focuses on only one aspect. I personally think environment is the least respected but of equal importance to the experience.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by smithb

The general definition appears to be:

"an entertainment setup consisting of television and video equipment designed to reproduce at home the experience of being in a movie theater."

Which can lead to a lot of interpretation. This thread is focused on video, but what about other aspects, such as audio, screen size, and viewing environment. Some may go as far as to state that without a dedicated, light and sound controlled environment, with a minimal of distractions it isn't a home theater. It gets to be a slippery slope quickly.

What is more important, being the best in one or two categories but only adequate in the rest or a tier down from the top available across the board? That what gets tricky when a thread focuses on only one aspect. I personally think environment is the least respected but of equal importance to the experience.

HT imo, is a screen or projector with a dedicated surround set up. That’s my take. Like you say, you can spend a fortune to reach various levels of excellence.

[wallendo]

It is not likely I will move past 4K. The studios seem to be quite happy with 2K workflows with an occasional 4K. Broadcast television in the US isn't likely to upgrade anytime soon. As it is, many stations sacrifice image quality in order to squeeze in more channels. 8K physical media would require 4 times the current bandwidth, and that is without any further technological improvements. I would rather any increased available bandwidth from future technology be used to improve the 4K image.

I may well upgrade the components of my system. I would be open to improvements in video formats without an increased resolution.

There are obviously people who will flock to 8K sets. I most likely will not be one of them unless true 8K content becomes widely available, and even then I question if added details will really add to the experience. Maybe Japanese 8K broadcasts will wow the world and change my mind

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by wallendo

It is not likely I will move past 4K. The studios seem to be quite happy with 2K workflows with an occasional 4K. Broadcast television in the US isn't likely to upgrade anytime soon. As it is, many stations sacrifice image quality in order to squeeze in more channels. 8K physical media would require 4 times the current bandwidth, and that is without any further technological improvements. I would rather any increased available bandwidth from future technology be used to improve the 4K image.

I may well upgrade the components of my system. I would be open to improvements in video formats without an increased resolution.

There are obviously people who will flock to 8K sets. I most likely will not be one of them unless true 8K content becomes widely available, and even then I question if added details will really add to the experience. Maybe Japanese 8K broadcasts will wow the world and change my mind

8K sets will upscale all resolutions to look better. At least, the good ones will.

Also, if VR and AR displays are ever to become movie watching tech for the mainstream, 8K is very welcome.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Yes, but isn’t that what other members are already doing here? I honestly don’t see anything wrong with what they said and they made some valid points Anthony P. How much is too much?

isn't that like asking how much is too much money or too much health....

Especially when the industry isn’t backing it outside of the equipment and minimal content? It isn’t about what people can afford or quality, but what is available. Clanging sword to shield isn’t going to change that, no matter how loud one shouts.

If by your first part you mean something like : there is no need to run out and buy an 8k TV Now just to have it upscale lower resolution content. Then I absolutely agree with you. the problem with turning that into a mantra and to paraphrasing the tile drawing the line and saying 8K is not needed because of that becomes foolish. Maybe like with digital, HD, UHD.... there will come a time when there is content for it.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

isn't that like asking how much is too much money or too much health....

[Show spoiler]


If by your first part you mean something like : there is no need to run out and buy an 8k TV Now just to have it upscale lower resolution content. Then I absolutely agree with you. the problem with turning that into a mantra and to paraphrasing the tile drawing the line and saying 8K is not needed because of that becomes foolish. Maybe like with digital, HD, UHD.... there will come a time when there is content for it.

Where you going with this bub

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by smithb

I don't need to drive a Porsche to know it is unnecessary to my lifestyle. I don't need to live in a ten bedroom house to know it is too much. We make decisions all the time without experiencing what a more expensive option would be like.

even though I agree with you (in the sense that I don't need a Porsche or a 10 bedroom house) your analogy does not work. I have already slept on a blanket on a beach, when the weather is nice I like to sleep outside on the patio furniture, on the other hand when it is raining or -30 outside sleeping outside is not a good option and so I have a home (and a bedroom) out of necessity. If I want to go pick up some stuff at the grocery store ~3km/2miles away I tend to walk there and back, for work Ione of my co-workers picks me up and we car-pool on the other hand if I want to go visit my sister 250km away I need a car to get me there.


For some people (like myself) car / home are a necessity and so we have them but they are not something used to derive any satisfaction or enjoyment in the first place so you cannot derive 10% 0r 100% or 1000% more satisfaction with something better (i.e. 0+ 1000%*0=0)

I've never denigrated anyone for their choices. Show me where I have?

so what do you call "many of us just aren't pixel watchers, we sit back and enjoy the content."


[/quote]
"Sapiendut" insists in insinuating anyone not willing to upgrade or experience the higher quality presented is missing something. All I've done is given an alternate perspective. I think it is great for those that want to move up, but I also think it is fine for those that want to stay pat, even without experiencing the differences. So who is doing the denigrating here?[/quote]

I don't see where he said anyone has to upgrade, can you show me? all he did is ask how people can anyone know how good things might look in the future.

Going back to the car analogy. I'm sure a Porsche and Mercedes can provide a great ride, but what is the person's ultimate objective, a great ride or getting from point A to point B? For some it may both, for others it may be getting to where they are going, but in a Honda Accord, and that is fine.

agreed and for me since it is getting from point A to B if one day there were to be transporters (as soon as I save enough to afford one) I would get one.
If someone says I watched X because I wanted to spend time with a loved one, then I can understand watching the film (or TV show) isn't what gives them pleasure, If it is an excuse for sitting on the couch and relaxing, then again it makes sense that someone won't care but you can't distinguish between AV quality and content since they are part of the experience.

For movies, some may prefer spending on more content then the next innovation.

now you are getting into money again. yes we all have to live within our means, but let me ask you this there is a knock at your door, you get a check for 1B$ and a note that says every week as long as you live you will get an extra 1M$ would you run out and buy a 10 bedroom house (I would not) , would you run out and buy a Porsche (I would no) would you update your HT and more films? (I would)

the example might be a bit exaggerated, but no one knows what the future holds. I remember in 2004 Sony came out with the Qualia-004 it was a 1080p projector for 30k, with very limited d-vhs content and that high price I waited a bit in 2006 BD came out, and then I got an Epson 1080p projector for 1K, I did not need to choose do I buy more films or higher quality films I could afford to do both.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by smithb

So what you are saying is that anyone that says something is "great" (to them, after all it is just a personal opinion) because it satisfies their needs, they are wrong? They should just say it is "Okay" instead. Here we will just have to agree to disagree, since I believe society has provided some latitude there.

BTW, the definition of "great" is not defined as the best option available (I suppose that would be "greatest"). Sounds like you just have a pet peeve about this usage of "great".

Now who is being denigrating...Anthony P.

Even though I don't fully agree with either of you I don't see where he is denigrating anyone in that quote. He should be allowed his opinion just as much as you are

As for me on the subject let me go with an analogy

there is a class and an exam, let's say the top student got 62% I can see why someone would say that is not great (here 60% is needed to pass so the person barely passed) since in absolutes that person is right, I can also see how someone could say " since he has the greatest mark in his class then by default it means the student did great". On the other hand the student that got 10% and did the worst I can't agree that him saying he did great makes any sense even if it is his opinion.

He is right, for the most part, consumer grade video quality is very far from how good it can look, so I can see why e has a hard time of accepting the term great, but IF we are talking about the best available I don't have an issue calling it great as long as we know it is relative and in the future things can be greater.

[smithb]

Anthony P, we can obviously continue going back and forth counter pointing each other's statements and hypothetical's, but at this point it isn't getting us anywhere. We will just have to agree to disagree on all other points.

As for the question presented by the OP, it was "What K will YOU draw the line at?". I can fully understand engaging in a debate if the terms were "What K SHOULD INDUSTRY draw the line at?" or "What K SHOULD CONSUMERS draw the line at?", because that impacts everyone.

But the question was directed at each individual based on their own unique perspective. For that, my response is standard 2K blu-ray. I neither have to justify it or defend it, it is was it is, my personal stance. Just as anyone else is free to voice their personal choice, free of criticism.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

FaceTime with family or friends on the tv.

lol. back in the 90's I worked in IT and one of my tasks was video conferencing. This one day we heard of a training secession on VC given by VC and a co-worker sand I decided to dial in. This huge 6' high head appears on screen (we set up all our VCs with projectors) and my friend looks at me and says "wow he really needs to do something about that nose hair" The guy introduces himself and started off with something like " with VC you really need to zoom in so people have a more natural experience" and I turn to my co worker and go "yeah because we all live in Oz and it is natural to have a meeting with a giant head." We kept on making wise cracks through the whole thing.

I love my family but I don't see the need to see them as big giant heads

[alchav21]

Well I think you can't draw the line on Technology. but you can pick and choose according to your needs and budget. Technology moves on, and if you want to stay current you have to choose what is best for yourself. I keep my stuff a long time, 10 years or more and that can be a very long time for Technology. When it's time to upgrade I try to pick the best equipment for my budget, this works best for me when I do some research.