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Old 06-25-2008, 02:18 PM   #1
EmpireGuy EmpireGuy is offline
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Default Blu-rays reading at 1080i, but studio claims it's 1080p

Hey guys,
New member, so I wasn't quite sure what forum to post this in, but hopefully it fits here.

I have a question for the "techies" here (more info can be provided, if needed):

There's a studio (I won't mention the name) who is releasing titles and claiming "1080p" on the box covers of their releases, however, when you play their titles back, the titles are playing at 1080i. Not just on my system - we've checked with multiple set-ups, TVs and players...so that's not the issue.

When I confronted the studio with this fact, this is the reply I got back. My question is are they giving us a line of BS?

Here's the reply:

Quote:
its a blu-ray spec thing.
The image people are viewing is a full 1920x1080
If the frame rate is 29.97 then the player reports it at 1080i even though the image you are viewing is 1080p
If the frame rate is 23.97 or 24 then the player reports it at 1080p.

So technically all of our videos are showing 1080p. The player reports 1080i when the frame rate is 29.97. So the customer is getting the full 1080p regardless of what the blu-ray player is saying with 1080i.

If anyone is interested we can show them the encodes before they go onto blu-ray disc. They are all 1080p
Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:26 PM   #2
arush5268d arush5268d is offline
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Which studio?
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:36 PM   #3
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BD framerates are 23.97 1080p24, 29.97 1080p30, 24.97 1080p25 and 59.97 1080i60 which is the same as 1080p30.


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Old 06-25-2008, 03:47 PM   #4
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This is the same "problem" that many saw on the NIN release. Basically, the content is 1080p30, but has to be flagged at 1080i60 so the player can handle it correctly. The image you are seeing is progressive, it just tells the player to think otherwise.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
This is the same "problem" that many saw on the NIN release. Basically, the content is 1080p30, but has to be flagged at 1080i60 so the player can handle it correctly. The image you are seeing is progressive, it just tells the player to think otherwise.
Thanks Josh. I guess my question here is the actual picture viewers are seeing indeed 1080p (although it's reading as 1080i), or is the player actually downgrading the image from 1080p to 1080i? In other words, is the video viewers are watching interlaced or progressive?

Also, would the studio HAVE to have flagged the title during transfer as 1080i60 in order to get proper 1080p playback? If they only flagged it as 1080p30 (assuming that's even possible), would it only playback as 1080i30?

Last edited by EmpireGuy; 06-25-2008 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
This is the same "problem" that many saw on the NIN release. Basically, the content is 1080p30, but has to be flagged at 1080i60 so the player can handle it correctly. The image you are seeing is progressive, it just tells the player to think otherwise.
The issue becomes whether de-interlacing (wherever it occurs) is being done correctly.

Without knowing the 1080i/60 is really 1080p/30 a de-interlacer would have to figure that out.

Gary
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:53 AM   #7
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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I will disagree with Josh. Not because he is wrong, but the final statement. Like Josh pretty much said on the disk it is 1080p30 flagged as 1080i60. The problem is an oversight in BD specs where 1080p30 is not fully supported. p is more efficiently encoded then i which is why it is 1080p30 flagged as i. The issue (as you noticed) is that the player will send it out as 1080i. Now because the source was p30 that would also mean no pull down. The display won't know that it was p30 and it will assume p24, so it might not convert for display correctly.(many sets do i60->p24->p (refresh rate) to try and eliminate the wonky frames of p24->i60)

Quote:
Thanks Josh. I guess my question here is the actual picture viewers are seeing indeed 1080p
technically anything you connect to a 1080p display will be 1080p even if it is a VHS player over composite and if it is not a 1080p display (an old CRT, a 720p plasma...) it will never be 1080p.

Now I am guessing your real question is will it be degraded from a pure 1080p30 stream? and the answer is that it depends on your display there are three ways that it could handle 1080i60
1) combine two consecutive fields to get a frame now you have a 60p and then you can multiply to get the right refresh
2) double each field to have 60 frames (assuming it is 60Hz) -assume the odd lines are the same as the second
3) assume it is 1080p24->1080i60 and reverse telecine to get a 1080p24 and then use that to get the right refresh (i.e. 72Hz would use three times each field)

if 1 then there is no difference
if 2 then you are actually getting "540p" or more precisely 540 lines of resolution
if 3 then you are missing every 3 frame
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:29 PM   #8
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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What I don't understand is, I know Blu-ray doesn't natively support 1080/30p so you encode it as 1080/60i, but you flag it somehow to tell it that it is really progressive (to tell it that that 1080/60i video really contains 1080/30p video).

Now if you have flagged it as progressive, why isn't the player identifying those "progressive" flags and then in the players "display" option showing that it is progressive instead of interlaced, and always outputting the correct video to the TV (depending on whether the flags tell it it is progressive or interlaced)?
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:41 PM   #9
EmpireGuy EmpireGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
What I don't understand is, I know Blu-ray doesn't natively support 1080/30p so you encode it as 1080/60i, but you flag it somehow to tell it that it is really progressive (to tell it that that 1080/60i video really contains 1080/30p video).

Now if you have flagged it as progressive, why isn't the player identifying those "progressive" flags and then in the players "display" option showing that it is progressive instead of interlaced, and always outputting the correct video to the TV (depending on whether the flags tell it it is progressive or interlaced)?
This too, was the general question I had.

The biggest problem I see with this is that there's no way for the home viewer to CONFIRM that this studio (or any studio) actually encoded a 1080p30 movie at 1080i60, or simply encoded it at 1080i30. The player/set is going to read 1080i as playback in both those scenarios. Leaving the viewer to "guess" if the studio is telling them the truth as to whether the picture is really 1080p quality or not.

Or am I missing something?
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:02 PM   #10
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmpireGuy View Post
actually encoded a 1080p30 movie at 1080i60, or simply encoded it at 1080i30.
I don't understand that bit.
By "1080i60" and "1080i30" are you meaning the same thing?

Last edited by 4K2K; 06-26-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:23 PM   #11
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I've read that U-571 (UK version by Entertainment in Video) displays the menu at 1080p but once the movie starts its 1080i.

I wonder if instead of encoding at 24 frames per second, they have done what happens with UK DVD's, increase the frame rate to 25 fps thus display at 50hz

This would one possible reason why its displayed as 1080i, being 1080i50, as 1080p25 at 1980x1080 is not supported

As far as I am concerned, 1080p 25,30 should be supported for UK and US progs recorded at 25fps and 30fps

Edit- Scrap the last sentence, I see that 4:3 (1440x1080) is supported at 25p and 30p, I assume for older tv shows put on bd

Last edited by lv426; 06-26-2008 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 05:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
I don't understand that bit.
By "1080i60" and "1080i30" are you meaning the same thing?
1080i30 and 1080i60 are differing terms for the same thing. Some people prefer to describe the video in frames (1080i30) while others choose to use fields (1080i60). Both mean the exact same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmpireGuy View Post
This too, was the general question I had.

The biggest problem I see with this is that there's no way for the home viewer to CONFIRM that this studio (or any studio) actually encoded a 1080p30 movie at 1080i60, or simply encoded it at 1080i30. The player/set is going to read 1080i as playback in both those scenarios. Leaving the viewer to "guess" if the studio is telling them the truth as to whether the picture is really 1080p quality or not.

Or am I missing something?
Again, there is no difference between 1080i30 and 1080i60 -- just different ways of describing the same encoding method (see above). A Blu-ray player will ALWAYS read such discs as 1080i30 (or 1080i60 depending on your vernacular preference). The issue becomes how they deinterlace such images. A good player will determine that the source is actually progressive and deinterlace properly for that source (creating a 1080p30 image). A player without proper deinterlacing could take the 1080i30/60 image and attempt to deinterlace it using other methods, resulting in an image that doesn't accurately reflect the original source material. In such cases, an external scaler (or the scaler built into a good HDTV) may be able to properly process the signal if it is sent as 1080i as opposed to 1080p. Honestly, its takes a bit of trial-and-error right now to find the best deinterlacing method within your home theatre setup.

When the end user has the proper deinterlacing capabilities, though, a 1080p30 image can be stored as 1080i30/60 without any loss of detail in the output image.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:07 AM   #13
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA View Post
A Blu-ray player will ALWAYS read such discs as 1080i30 (or 1080i60 depending on your vernacular preference). The issue becomes how they deinterlace such images. A good player will determine that the source is actually progressive and deinterlace properly for that source (creating a 1080p30 image). A player without proper deinterlacing could take the 1080i30/60 image and attempt to deinterlace it using other methods
That's the issue then... either the discs have not been encoded using the Progressive flags or the players are not detecting & using the progressive flags (in their display & output options).

The OP said "Not just on my system - we've checked with multiple set-ups, TVs and players...so that's not the issue.", so that could suggest that the discs themselves don't contain the progressive flags or that the multiple TVs and players they tested don't detect the flags.

On the Samsung BD-P1400 there isn't a display option that shows the frame/field rate of the video, or whether it is interlaced or progressive and my TV info button only shows 50hz or 60hz when playing back Blu-ray (and not whether it is receiving progressive or interlaced).

There also isn't an "auto" option on the BD-P1400 player that I can see for playing back video in whatever format is on the disc (ie. it asks you your display setup - eg. 1080i or 1080p and others, and then outputs it in either one of those, though I suppose it, itself, is doing the conversion to 1080p).

I wonder if there is a list of which players properly detect the flags and show the source frame/field rate & interlacing/progressive settings. I know there was a list somewhere that showed which TVs de-interlaced properly - and apparently, a lot of them didn't.

Last edited by 4K2K; 06-27-2008 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:05 PM   #14
john_1958 john_1958 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
That's the issue then... either the discs have not been encoded using the Progressive flags or the players are not detecting & using the progressive flags (in their display & output options).

The OP said "Not just on my system - we've checked with multiple set-ups, TVs and players...so that's not the issue.", so that could suggest that the discs themselves don't contain the progressive flags or that the multiple TVs and players they tested don't detect the flags.

On the Samsung BD-P1400 there isn't a display option that shows the frame/field rate of the video, or whether it is interlaced or progressive and my TV info button only shows 50hz or 60hz when playing back Blu-ray (and not whether it is receiving progressive or interlaced).

There also isn't an "auto" option on the BD-P1400 player that I can see for playing back video in whatever format is on the disc (ie. it asks you your display setup - eg. 1080i or 1080p and others, and then outputs it in either one of those, though I suppose it, itself, is doing the conversion to 1080p).

I wonder if there is a list of which players properly detect the flags and show the source frame/field rate & interlacing/progressive settings. I know there was a list somewhere that showed which TVs de-interlaced properly - and apparently, a lot of them didn't.
and there are blu-ray movies like Short Circuit which is 1080i
night at the museum is suppose to be 1.8 aspect when package says 2.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:42 PM   #15
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Now if you have flagged it as progressive, why isn't the player identifying those "progressive" flags and then in the players "display" option showing that it is progressive instead of interlaced, and always outputting the correct video to the TV (depending on whether the flags tell it it is progressive or interlaced)?
no, it is the opposite. To explain we must delve into encoders and codecs.
when we usually describe codecs we talk about the image and the easier way is to describe what they do with one frame/field where they will take some adjoining pixels that are the same and describe them as a block. But codecs don't only compress in space but in time as well. to give a simple example if nothing changed from one frame to the next there is no need to redescribe it. They can also use movement (i.e. move block of pixels x pixels left). This is where i becomes tricky, with i each field is different from the previous one (i.e. one is odd lines and the other even). This means that when you truly encode i the compressions is not as good as if it was p. So what is done is a bit of cheating you leave it as p (and gain the efficiency of it) and they add 1080i pflags that describe to the decoder how to decode it as 1080i.

You are right, if that is what is done then in theory someone could build a rogue decoder/player that dismisses the flags, on the other hand it might not be that easy. Don't forget that there is much more then just the main video and things need to be synched.

For example BD requires the PiP and main video to be the same format (for easy processing) if the PiP is i60 but the main is flagged p30 and you don’t use the flags for i60 they are no longer the same.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:15 PM   #16
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Thanks for your reply Anthony P, but I'm still totally lost and confused

Is there any player that you know of that displays that the source video is really 1080/30p or whether it is 1080/60i and (similar thing with 1080/25p and 1080/50i) by checking the flags? And is true that all 1080/30p video stored on a Blu-ray disc will need to be encoded at 1080/60i but have a flag somewhere that tells it that it is progressive.

Sorry for not quite understanding it I'd be glad if someone could say, in very basic terms, how a 1080/30p video gets encoded to a Blu-ray compatible file, and how the players are decoding it and hopefully detecting that it is really 1080/30p and not really 1080/60i (which would have different fields taken at different points in time), and outputting it properly (and do we know which players identify it and output it properly and which don't)?

Last edited by 4K2K; 06-28-2008 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
I know there was a list somewhere that showed which TVs de-interlaced properly - and apparently, a lot of them didn't.
There's a test BD for that (HD HQV Benchmark - Blu-ray (Silicon Optix) deinterlacing/frame rates test disc) (but I don't know if it includes signals for 25p/50i too.)

For example the PS3 before the firmware upgrade sent out 1080p30 (9"Nails) and 1080i60 (some other concerts and docus) as 1080i60, the display saw that as 1080i60 of course and then it was up to the deinterlacer on the display to deinterlace things correctly into 1080p30 x 2 = 1080p60 (2 weaved fields into one frame, repeated twice, 2:2), or 1080i60 -> 1080p60 (60 full frames interpolated from 60 interlaced fields).

With things like the 1080i T3 and Short Circuit the deinterlacer on the display (or player) would have to do inverse 3:2 also to get the optimum no loss (weaved fields) deinterlacing from 24p film

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
( and my TV info button only shows 50hz or 60hz when playing back Blu-ray (and not whether it is receiving progressive or interlaced).
Could you tell me which Blu-rays show as 50Hz on your display

On the Dr. Who Restoration Team they said the BBC was transcoding 50i into 60i on BDs so I would like to know of any Region B Blu-rays in 50i that you may have
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:32 PM   #18
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Could you tell me which Blu-rays show as 50Hz on your display

On the Dr. Who Restoration Team they said the BBC was transcoding 50i into 60i on BDs so I would like to know of any Region B Blu-rays in 50i that you may have
Well I actually don't think I have any 50hz Blu-ray discs yet - so what I said was a slight typo/mistake. Sorry - but hopefully I will in future - though I've also read that some companies have been converting 50hz content to something else for release on Blu-ray, which isn't good for UK Blu-ray owners as the quality won't be as good as the original.

But at the moment, I'm playing back a Standard Definition PAL DVD in my Samsung BD-P1400 Blu-ray player, and the display (output) settings on my Samsung player are set to 1080p, and the info button on my TV is showing 1920x1080/50hz.

PS: I hadn't known Doctor Who was going to be released on Blu-ray as I thought it was either shot or edited in standard definition (at least, for the current series I think the effects are done in standard definition to save costs/time). I've just looked it up on imdb, and it's saying that the old series of it was 16mm film for the outdoor/location shots and video for interior shots (so perhaps that means that the outdoor shots could made to look a bit better, but perhaps the indoor shots wouldn't improve much - well at least a Blu-ray version would have a higher bitrate than DVD, and US viewers would get more lines of picture than an NTSC version of it - but if they rate convert it for all regions, that will reduce the quality for UK & US viewers).

Last edited by 4K2K; 06-28-2008 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
Well I actually don't think I have any 50hz Blu-ray discs yet - so what I said was a slight typo/mistake - but hopefully I will in future - though I've also read that some companies have been converting 50hz content to something else for release on Blu-ray, which isn't good for UK Blu-ray owners as the quality won't be as good as the original.

But at the moment, I'm playing back a Standard Definition "PAL" DVD in my Samsung BD-P1400 Blu-ray player, and the display settings on my Samsung are set to 1080p, and the info button on my TV is showing 1920x1080/50hz.

PS: I hadn't known Doctor Who was going to be released on Blu-ray as I thought it was either shot or edited in standard definition (at least, for the current series I think the effects are done in standard definition to save costs/time).
Dr. Who is in SD. I said that someone on the Dr. Who Restoration Team mentioned that 50i material released on Blu-ray is being converted to 60i (probably for universal playback in both US/Worldwide displays, as US displays are 99% 60Hz based, while as you know in Europe for example you have 60/50 Hz capable ones), and probably I should have been more clear that the info wasn't refering to Dr. Who material, but to 1080i50 material in general (while the source of that info just happens to be someone from the RT).

That's why I asked about 50i BDs you might have, because, that of course would be the preferable, native rate, for 50i material.

At least 60i is a higher frame rate than 50i, so the situation is not as bad on BD, as the one of getting PAL 576i50 material released as NTSC 480 pixel DVDs only, which is a downconversion.

PS: I get all my Dr. Who DVDs in PAL

Last edited by Deciazulado; 06-28-2008 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:20 PM   #20
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
I said that someone on the Dr. Who Restoration Team mentioned that 50i material released on Blu-ray is being converted to 60i (probably for universal playback in both US/Worldwide displays, as US displays are 99% 60Hz based, while as you know in Europe for example you have 60/50 Hz capable ones)
Quote:
That's why I asked about 50i BDs you might have, because, that of course would be the preferable, native rate, for 50i material.
I agree, and those doing the conversion of 25hz or 50hz content to 30hz/60hz for worldwide release are doing a great disservice to European/UK viewers (who will be getting an inferior quality product than they could have had). They should really do 2 versions (encodes) - one for 60hz land and one for 50hz land (they might need different versions anyway for different ratings boards, packaging, other localization stuff). In fact USA viewers should be asking their TV manufacturers to support both rates, just like European TV makers/suppliers do (perhaps the ATSC should make it some sort of mandatory standard for all newly sold TVs? I'd guess the same manufacturers are probably making both USA and European TV sets so I wouldn't have thought it would be much more work/cost).

I've read about some Blu-ray discs that are apparently 50hz but as far as I know, they have been from European film studios incorrectly encoding 24p content. So while those would play back without the 3:2 pulldown judder (just like PAL SD discs), they will be speeded up and, proper 24p encodes of those original 24p films would have been better, particularly with Blu-ray players, and the newest TVs now often having proper 24p input/display options.

Last edited by 4K2K; 06-28-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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