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Old 12-13-2006, 04:58 PM   #21
ProvenFlipper ProvenFlipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post
I was wanting to see Omen's rate because it is not too hot IMHO, there are some bad instances of posterization

18.5 Mbps mpeg2 ain't gonna cut it for 1.85:1 films, 2.40:1 maybe

Fox is screwing the pooch on these SL Mpeg2 releases, much worse than Sony(which I have little fault with)

-Gary
Welcome over Gary... I was wondering when you were going to join us over here.
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:20 PM   #22
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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I actually think 2.40 movies need more bitrate than 1.85 ones because to make them the same height (as they were designed: Scope movies are supposed to be seen bigger (wider) than 1.85) you have to blow them up more (1.78x more) so compression noise/artifacts will be 1.78x more visible.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:03 PM   #23
Gary Murrell Gary Murrell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
I actually think 2.40 movies need more bitrate than 1.85 ones because to make them the same height (as they were designed: Scope movies are supposed to be seen bigger (wider) than 1.85) you have to blow them up more (1.78x more) so compression noise/artifacts will be 1.78x more visible.
that would be the case if the movies were true 2.40:1 anamorphic, but they are in a 1.78:1 frame, so black bars don't have to be encoded, so less picture info than 1.85:1 movies

thanks Proven, glad to be here

-Gary
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:39 AM   #24
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post
that would be the case if the movies were true 2.40:1 anamorphic, but they are in a 1.78:1 frame, so black bars don't have to be encoded, so less picture info than 1.85:1 movies

thanks Proven, glad to be here

-Gary
Gary, first let me mention I know you loves film and the proper film look/transfers as I've read some of your PQ assessments on AVS, good to have you here. So I hope we'll get more gratuitous film and celluloid-violence discussions around here, Mr. Gary

now to the tech part of my post!

Ok, you're right in one point, it's not 1.78x the bit-rate of 1.85 movies, instead I should have been more specific and said 1.78x times the bit-rate of the smaller Scope letterboxed file, which as you say has less picture encoded than a full frame 1.85 movie, but Scope movies still need more bit-rate because you're blowing them up even if the image is smaller. So I should have said something more akin to: A Scope movie needs 1.33x the bit-rate of a 1.85 movie to look of equal quality in a Constant Height set up :


Heres the math:

Assume 20 Mb/s AVC is just enough baseline for "noiseless" picture quality for a 1.85 movie at your projector size and viewing distance.

Lets say a 40" x 75" screen.

Now the 2.39 Scope movie data will be approx. 3/4th the size of the 1.85 image because it's reduced (letterboxed) inside the 16:9 pixel array. (803 x 1920 pixels = 0.77x 1038 x 1920 pixels). So instead of 20 Mb/s you'll need just 15 Mb/s (3/4ths) to reach just enough baseline for "noiseless" picture quality equal to the 1.85 picture at the same viewing distance, as the image is now approx. 30" x 75" inside the 40" x 75" screen. But you being a movie-lover and videophile decide you want to watch Jaws just like in a theater, after all, Panavision and CinemaScope is all about the Wide Scope! So you get yourself a 40" x 95" screen and zoom your projectors lens 1.33x, or get Rumco to add the whole interpolating/anamorphic lens attachment thing (less antialiasing but same resolution for more $) to fill the screen and reach Cinema nirvana. What happened? You magnified the image. So you magnified the compression noise too. Before at 15 Mb/s it was below the threshold of visibility, now it has been enlarged. How much? About 1.33x vertically, and 1.33x horizontally giving you 1.33 x 1.33 = 1.78.
So you needed 15 Mb/s before for the letterboxed 2.39 image to be noiseless, now you'll need 15 Mb/s X 1.78 = 27 Mb/s (Which happens to be the video bit-rate of Swordfish)

That's one reason I prefer BD as my format of choice because it has the capacity and potential to do this, and W I D E -Scope movies are my favorite format. And I do watch them WIDE as they were watched in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Original intent


And btw, from this corollary, an Academy Sound movie (1.375 aspect ratio) should need about 0.75x the bit-rate of a 1.85 movie.

Now, when do we get Mad Max 2 in full bit-rate 2.40 Scope Blu-ray so I can impress friends by the racing road shots in a curved CinemaScope screen and say give me the gasoline, give me the pump, give me the whole compound, and they get it?


*note: Actually 1.33 x 1.33 would be needed if going from 1.78 height to 2.37 height. From 1.85 height to 2.39 height (today's movies' current aspect ratios) you need to increase bit-rate 1.66x. I just used the simple more common on video proportions of 1.33/0.75 for the example. If we use the 1.66x figure precisely in the particular case of 1.85 vs 2.39, we get that if 1.85 20 Mb/s AVC is noiseless, then 2.39 would need to be 15.5 Mb/s x 1.66 = 25.8 Mb/s. for the same quality. Close enough to the 1.33 x 1.33 = 1.78 simple numbers calculation ;D)
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Old 12-14-2006, 05:16 AM   #25
Gary Murrell Gary Murrell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Gary, first let me mention I know you loves film and the proper film look/transfers as I've read some of your PQ assessments on AVS, good to have you here. So I hope we'll get more gratuitous film and celluloid-violence discussions around here, Mr. Gary

[/SIZE]
I got ya bud, everyone doesn't have a 2.40:1 setup like we do

I run my 2.40:1 setup at 1920x800p, which is the exact visible info from 2.40:1 HD movies because of the 1.78:1 frame, I get this from the DVDO VP50 which is set to only look at the 2.40:1 portion of incoming sources, I view 1920x800p deinterlaced and unscaled from BR/HD, I only view films so a setup like this is heaven for me

glad to be here, I can only dream for Road Warrior to be released, talk about 2.40:1 bliss

-Gary
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:52 AM   #26
Blackraven Blackraven is offline
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
Added the Japanese disc of Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence.
I'm wowed by this title.

The bitrate on this thing is monstrous with 39-40 Mbps of video bitrate. More than that, this is the ONLY Blu-ray title (in the list so far) that carries a 7.1 audio soundtrack (possibly via uncompressed PCM).

Power-packed in specs.
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Old 12-15-2006, 01:46 PM   #27
Blackraven Blackraven is offline
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
It is definitely uncompressed PCM. And not only is it the only bluray with 7.1 audio, it is also the first and so far only discrete 7.1 audio track on any home format whatsoever (music or video). (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
That is impressive
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Old 12-20-2006, 06:20 AM   #28
Stundra Stundra is offline
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Thanks for you effort taking care of this very useful list and keeping it up to date. It would be great if you could add a mark or something similar to movies which are not region protected.
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Old 12-22-2006, 03:33 PM   #29
GoldenRedux GoldenRedux is offline
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
Added The Descent, Kung Fu Hustle, Sleepy Hollow

The Descent doesn't work at all in PowerDVD. Obviously because of the advanced features. Rather than speculate I only included the information that I can verify 100%. Also the advanced features in the stream would make it very hard to determine the video bitrate anyway.
The Descent is out already? I thought that wasn't coming out until the 26th?
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Old 12-22-2006, 06:48 PM   #30
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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"World Trade Center" is a "Superbit"....30+Mbps average video bitrate.
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:09 PM   #31
Gary Murrell Gary Murrell is offline
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I would love to see Pearl Harbor guys

thanks for the great work

-Gary
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Old 12-23-2006, 02:00 PM   #32
GoldenRedux GoldenRedux is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post
Update: PowerDVD Ultra was released today. The Descent now loads but I get no video. Just a blank screen with the audio playing. PowerDVD reports the video as AVC and the audio as LPCM 7.1.

Because of the branching and interactive features its impossible to even make a guess at bitrates solely based on filesizes and runtimes.
AVC? So, if PowerDVD is correct, then Lions's Gate has moved away from MPEG2.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:51 AM   #33
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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AVC? So, if PowerDVD is correct, then Lions's Gate has moved away from MPEG2.
...and not VC-1 as some said, and some in another forum took as impending support of HD DVD
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Old 12-27-2006, 03:20 PM   #34
GoldenRedux GoldenRedux is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
...and not VC-1 as some said, and some in another forum took as impending support of HD DVD
This is GREAT news for HD DVD!
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Old 12-29-2006, 02:39 AM   #35
IamAnoobieCheez IamAnoobieCheez is offline
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Since the Pearl Harbor sold out I bought the The Last Samurai. This is my second Blu-Ray movie. Wow... the PQ is amazing. It is a jaw dropping for sure. Does anyone know what's the video bitrates on this movie?? I didn't see it in the list benes has posted.

Last edited by IamAnoobieCheez; 12-29-2006 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 12-30-2006, 12:08 PM   #36
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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You have PM
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:09 AM   #37
michaeljamesjohnson michaeljamesjohnson is offline
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Sorry for the n00bish comment, but some of those audio codecs confuse me. Are any of those "Dolby TrueHD"? If so, can you at least put this in parenthesis next to the existing codec name?


Same with the video codecs. MPEG-2 should probably be renamed to "MPEG-2 HD" and "AVC" should be renamed to "MPEG-4" for consistency.

Thanks for the awesome list though!

Last edited by michaeljamesjohnson; 01-01-2007 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:40 PM   #38
michaeljamesjohnson michaeljamesjohnson is offline
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Thumbs up

I knew I was not understanding correctly!

So after re-reviewing the list, I find it disturbing that there are only a few movies with "DTS-HD Master Audio" (which is better than "DTS-HD") and there is only one disc with "Dolby TrueHD"!

If "LPCM" is theoretically just as good, then I think I will look for that audio codec in the future as well.

Also, there are even fewer movies that have one of the three audio codecs above in combination with a good video codec like "AVC" or "VC-1". Hopefully these studios start investing the time/money into their products that they should have been in the first place.

One last thing, I would assume all these "films" are encoded at "1080p/24". Do you think there will be "video" releases in the future encoded at "1080p/30"?
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:14 PM   #39
GoldenRedux GoldenRedux is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson View Post
If "LPCM" is theoretically just as good, then I think I will look for that audio codec in the future as well.
Just to clarify, LPCM is not a codec, it is simply straight digital audio 'Linear Pulse Code Modulation' This is the same form that digital audio takes on CDs, and it can be at various bit depths and sampling rates. So, in simple terms, LPCM is uncompressed digital audio.

Quote:
Also, there are even fewer movies that have one of the three audio codecs above in combination with a good video codec like "AVC" or "VC-1". Hopefully these studios start investing the time/money into their products that they should have been in the first place.
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. If you mean that AVC and VC-1 are 'good' and MPEG2 is 'bad', I think you are way off here. There is nothing 'bad' about MPEG2 or inherently 'good' about VC-1 or AVC. Just look at some of the reference titles like Kingdom of Heaven, The Devil Wears Prada, Ghost in the Shell: Innocence and Black Hawk Down. They are all encoded with MPEG2, and they all look stellar and garner near universal praise. Kingdom of Heaven has a DTS-HD MA Lossless soundtrack and Black Hawk Down has an uncompressed Linear PCM soundtrack. In comparison, a title like Superman Returns, encoded in VC-1, looks awful, IMO.
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:19 PM   #40
Ascended_Saiyan Ascended_Saiyan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson View Post
If "LPCM" is theoretically just as good, then I think I will look for that audio codec in the future as well.
LPCM is uncompressed. All the other codecs are compressed. For now, I think, the other audio codecs should be compared against LPCM instead of the other way around.

Quote:
Also, there are even fewer movies that have one of the three audio codecs above in combination with a good video codec like "AVC" or "VC-1". Hopefully these studios start investing the time/money into their products that they should have been in the first place.
They are all good codecs. AVC and VC-1 just takes up less space on the disc. I believe the trade off is more processing power needed in the player to decode the disc.

More movies can be transferred to disc using MPEG-2 than VC-1 within a given time period. Within the past 3 months, MPEG-2 encoded titles have been getting great ratings with reviewers (4.5 stars and above). So, MPEG-2 is a good codec like the rest of them.

Quote:
One last thing, I would assume all these "films" are encoded at "1080p/24". Do you think there will be "video" releases in the future encoded at "1080p/30"?
Probably not since films are generally shot at 24fps. I would only expect that if Hollywood starts shooting films at 30fps.

Welcome to the deep Blu!
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