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Old 01-16-2009, 08:34 PM   #1
nathan28 nathan28 is offline
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Default Do Bitrates matter?

Do blu-ray movie bitrates honestly matter when it comes to PQ? To me it seems it would, but for example "The Matrix: Reloaded" has a low bitrate and looks great and some other movies like "hancock" have a higher bit rate and look bad. Im guessing it has to do with a combination of things??
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:40 PM   #2
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Bitrates allow for higher motion resolution. Other factors are weighed into picture quality, many of which are subjective, but generally speaking you will see fewer motion artifacts from a transfer with a higher bitrate encode. Keep in mind that comparing two seperate movies is difficult in regards to bitrate, because they are not identical. If you take the same movie and have two encodes one with a higher bitrate than the other, the higher bitrate encode will look better when playing, but with any static shot they will appear nearly identical.
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:44 PM   #3
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I also think it's a combination of factors, and though a high bit rate should theoretically yield a superior picture, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get a great-looking picture with low-to-moderate bit rates. Take 'Speed Racer' as an example: it's got relatively low bit rates and yet it looks quite astounding--one of the very best out there. (The audio on this disc is another matter, of course.)
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:49 PM   #4
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If "SpeedRacer" looks great with a low bitrate, why dont they turn the bitrate up if it can fit on the disk? what is the benefit of having a low bitrate other than saving space? is it cheaper or something?
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:58 PM   #5
kpkelley kpkelley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan28 View Post
If "SpeedRacer" looks great with a low bitrate, why dont they turn the bitrate up if it can fit on the disk? what is the benefit of having a low bitrate other than saving space? is it cheaper or something?
It's on a bd-25, there is no more space. I for one do not like the speed racer disc, I found it to be very much lacking in detail.
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Old 01-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #6
richieb1971 richieb1971 is offline
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Bitrates are at the mercy of the material and the codec.

Two different codecs of the same material will yield different bitrates.

PQ has more to do with how well the original material is handled and recorded. Ultimately that will bare a much bigger difference on the presentation than any codec choice.

All you need to know about bitrates is that the more information is compacted into 1 particular second of footage the more higher the bitrate will go. Since information is collected from the original negative the bitrate will be at the mercy of what was recorded.

Bitrate followers use bitrate as a guideline to see if the absolute maximum possibilities have been gotten from the disc that is being sold. Because afterall if it only just fits and gets the best from the bitrates it obviously that much better than it would have been otherwise. My argument though is that the difference between maximising the disc and not maximising the disc will be negligible to most peoples eyes.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:18 PM   #7
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I don't have much knowledge in this area, but just using something as an example: The last two movies I watched were The Italian Job and Crank. The Italian Job's PQ is nowhere near Crank's obviously, but they both had similar bitrates a lot of times during the movie. Crank on average would have been higher of course though. Basically, my point is that just because they have similar bitrates doesn't mean that they are the same in PQ. At least from my recent observation.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:28 PM   #8
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I've recently discovered that the UK release of 'Jarhead' is on a BD-50 whereas the US release is on a BD-25, and the UK release has nearly double the video bitrate. I currently have the US edition, but I've now ordered the UK one to see if there is any discernible difference in PQ on my 46" plasma. I'm half expecting not to see much if any difference, but I'll be interested to make the comparison.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:33 PM   #9
Clark Kent Clark Kent is offline
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This thread has many of the answers you seek...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=80076
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpkelley View Post
It's on a bd-25, there is no more space. I for one do not like the speed racer disc, I found it to be very much lacking in detail.
Lacking in detail? Take a look at this shot:

https://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/592_5_1080p.jpg

I don't think I've seen quite as much detail in a Blu-Ray
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpkelley View Post
It's on a bd-25, there is no more space. I for one do not like the speed racer disc, I found it to be very much lacking in detail.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killowertz View Post
I don't have much knowledge in this area, but just using something as an example: The last two movies I watched were The Italian Job and Crank. The Italian Job's PQ is nowhere near Crank's obviously, but they both had similar bitrates a lot of times during the movie. Crank on average would have been higher of course though. Basically, my point is that just because they have similar bitrates doesn't mean that they are the same in PQ. At least from my recent observation.
They both have the same codec an mpeg 2. I have no idea why one would look so much better than the other. The only diffience I can see by looking at the specs is Italian Job is on a 25 gig disk and Crank is on a 50 gig. mpeg 2 transfers can look good as long as they have breathing space. A lot of mpeg 2 disks look bad if their authored on a 25 gig.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada View Post
They both have the same codec an mpeg 2. I have no idea why one would look so much better than the other. The only diffience I can see by looking at the specs is Italian Job is on a 25 gig disk and Crank is on a 50 gig. mpeg 2 transfers can look good as long as they have breathing space. A lot of mpeg 2 disks look bad if their authored on a 25 gig.
I don't either, but I can probably explain less than you right now. I'm just approaching 30 BD's, so I'm still fairly new. The difference in PQ between the two is huge though. Crank has quite a few demo quality scenes, where The Italian Job doesn't. The extra space probably is one factor. It is a short movie, so it has a ton of breathing space. Also, Crank was shot on HD cameras. I don't know how much of a difference that makes, but I figured I'd throw that out there anyways.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpkelley View Post
It's on a bd-25, there is no more space. I for one do not like the speed racer disc, I found it to be very much lacking in detail.
Im not sure if it was exactly lacking in detail...but I wasnt all that blown away with this disk either..the colors are cool and its all digital so its very clean but i think its far from some of the best HD material out there. The last movie I watched was SIN CITY and I thought it looked way better than SPEED RACER. thats just me though
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:15 AM   #15
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That screenshot is from a movie that used HD cameras. Like I said the source makes all the difference. Since no film was used in the development of the movie the screenshot is crystal. That has nothing to do with bitrates and its quite possible any attempt to make a movie with film won't get results as good as that no matter what the bitrate is.

Crank used HD cameras as well.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richieb1971 View Post
That screenshot is from a movie that used HD cameras. Like I said the source makes all the difference. Since no film was used in the development of the movie the screenshot is crystal. That has nothing to do with bitrates and its quite possible any attempt to make a movie with film won't get results as good as that no matter what the bitrate is.

Crank used HD cameras as well.
Why? Film should be a perfectly fine medium to make a film with. Baraka was filmed on film.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:40 PM   #17
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35mm and 70mm film have inherently higher resolution than any current digital HD video camera. There will come a point though in the next decade or so when that is no longer true.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:56 PM   #18
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Different things on screen require higher bitrates for higher pq.. it really depends. In general, the higher bitrate the higher the quality per movie - but only to an extent. A good bitrate on a video just means it will reserve more quality compared to the master video it was encoded from. For example, Predator or Total Recall could have a 100 bitrate and it would not really matter because the master the mater it was encoded from is not in the best shape - and lacks detail to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan28 View Post
If "SpeedRacer" looks great with a low bitrate, why dont they turn the bitrate up if it can fit on the disk? what is the benefit of having a low bitrate other than saving space? is it cheaper or something?
Probably because Speed Racer would not have looked any better at a higher bitrate. My guess is all of the cgi details are easier to display than live action film. Speed Racer looks great because it is colorful.. more so than detail. Just like a VBR mp3 it does not matter how well the song is engineered but how much detail is in the song that requires a higher bitrate.

Last edited by statikcat; 01-20-2009 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:42 AM   #19
richieb1971 richieb1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krumlin View Post
Why? Film should be a perfectly fine medium to make a film with. Baraka was filmed on film.
Sure, but its still not a perfect transition to blu. In fact I believe any blu ray that originates on film is an interpretation of the movie. Thats why people review PQ. When you have a HD source that never leaves the digital realm of course it will beat any film conversion hands down.

If you gave the top 5 blu ray studios a single piece of movie material, the chances are all 5 would look different when compared.

But, if you gave 5 studios HD material, it would most likely look the same, or near on identical. Thats because there is little need to change anything in the source and no conversions are made.


Film has higher resolution, but for the blu ray that makes no difference since blu ray is restricted to 1080p which is what most HD movies are filmed in when using HD cameras.
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richieb1971 View Post
Sure, but its still not a perfect transition to blu. In fact I believe any blu ray that originates on film is an interpretation of the movie. Thats why people review PQ. When you have a HD source that never leaves the digital realm of course it will beat any film conversion hands down.

If you gave the top 5 blu ray studios a single piece of movie material, the chances are all 5 would look different when compared.

But, if you gave 5 studios HD material, it would most likely look the same, or near on identical. Thats because there is little need to change anything in the source and no conversions are made.


Film has higher resolution, but for the blu ray that makes no difference since blu ray is restricted to 1080p which is what most HD movies are filmed in when using HD cameras.
I am not a video expert but work in audio everyday where a lot of similar principles apply. For example, audio cds are all 16bit.. but studios all record in 24bit or 32bit floating point. Why? Because if you take a 24b audio file and dither it to 16b it will often sound better than the same signal at 16b to start with. Again, I am not a video expert but I would imagine rendering film DOWN to 1080p would have some benefits over an HD camera that shoots straight at 1080p. Although many HD cameras already shoot higher. It's something I would like to learn more about though.
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