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View Poll Results: Which team will win this year's NBA Championship?
Golden State Warriors in 4 games 3 8.33%
Golden State Warriors in 5 games 7 19.44%
Golden State Warriors in 6 games 10 27.78%
Golden State Warriors in 7 games 1 2.78%
Toronto Raptors in 4 games 0 0%
Toronto Raptors in 5 games 0 0%
Toronto Raptors in 6 games 3 8.33%
Toronto Raptors in 7 games 12 33.33%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-08-2019, 06:36 PM   #72501
Lacit170 Lacit170 is offline
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Lebron was getting ripped for being weak in this thread, and besides he's 34 years old, so I thought the comparison was appropo.
speaking for myself, i think its weak if ANY player takes a "load management" game off. if you're not injured, you play... end of story....

i gave some relief once playoff seed is locked but besides that, its a bunch of garbage

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyCosts View Post
Calling Leonard a wimp for sitting out on back to backs when he has a chronic condition seems pretty ridiculous considering this strategy allowed the raptors to win a championship.
again, the narrative of raptors winning the ring doesnt directly correlate to him resting more. if they didnt win, does that mean the rest days didnt work and he shouldnt get them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naiera View Post
Someone should tell Barfy that LeBron is playing his butt off on D this season.


so it was OK when he didnt play his butt off last season or any other season? ok got it... as long as hes performing 100% of his job now

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Many analysts agree with me and I think his entourage is using this so called "chronic condition" as an excuse to play less during the season. And it can be said that Toronto won the championship in spite of this "strategy" rather than because of it.
exactly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Every game that a player is uninjured. Exceptions would be meaningless games late in the season where they have the seed locked up. Kwahi is only averaging 30 minutes a game when he does play, so if he takes 20 games off this year for load management, then he's effectively in less the half the time the team is on the court during the season.

Look, I understand if Kwahi can't do back to back because his entourage considers the risk/reward proposition too high. I don't think he's calling the shots and is just doing what he's told. So can't blame him. But let's just call it as it is. He's not a full time player, GMAB.
oh you absolutely CAN and SHOULD blame him. if his team requested this in the contract, Kawhi approves it and agrees, so its on him and no one else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastCreatureTrapper View Post
Well, if the medical staff has the player cleared, meaning that they are deemed healthy enough to play, and then the coach officially sits them for "rest/load management", then that player is not getting paid.

If it comes down to coaches and medical staffs outright lying about a player's condition to get them on a medical report, then I guess you have to start having an independent medical team coming in on random checks to verify the validity of a team's injury report. If they find that things aren't jiving, then you start issuing fines and possible other penalties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastCreatureTrapper View Post
It can and should. If a player has a history of load management, the team should be ready for a random inspection.

Kawhine's issues aside, I don't think load management is a major issue...yet.

You put these provisions in place, and you will keep it that way.

this will never work for a multiple of reasons. a medical trainer cant judge pain tolerance from a test. if a player is too sore to play or something, that is up to the player and not a doctor essentially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
I can see that. It's like "oh look, LBJ took a couple of LM games late in 2017 so he's a part time player.

No active player in the league has played more career minutes than Lebron (Vince Carter is second). I have no doubt he'll pass Kareem at some point.
well, you are making one statement which doesnt justify the argument at hand. just because he averages the most minutes, doesnt mean he doesnt take games off, because he does and has for several years.

he has played a ton of minutes, no doubt, but are you saying that is justification for taking load management games during the regular season? if so, that means any player who averages over 30 minutes a game should get rest?
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:37 PM   #72502
Lacit170 Lacit170 is offline
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oh, and further on the topic.... id say the league has a problem on its hand by the below pic

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Old 11-08-2019, 07:07 PM   #72503
bruceames bruceames is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacit170 View Post
speaking for myself, i think its weak if ANY player takes a "load management" game off. if you're not injured, you play... end of story....

i gave some relief once playoff seed is locked but besides that, its a bunch of garbage
I wouldn't go that far, and it's not smart to start a player that clearly needs a rest. Happens all the time in baseball, and these players are just standing around 95% of the time. I'm sure that when LBJ was given a LM game, that he clearly needed it, or that the seed was locked up and nothing to be gained with him playing.

BTW, how many LM games has he had the last several years? He played all 82 games two year ago. You also have to consider that he's been the Finals 8 years in a row and that obviously takes a toll on the body.

But even disregarding that, he plays more regular season minutes than anybody else in the league this decade. If he needs a few LM games along the way, sure. You get a freaking pass when you already play more than anyone else. End of story.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:13 PM   #72504
Lacit170 Lacit170 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
I wouldn't go that far, and it's not smart to start a player that clearly needs a rest. Happens all the time in baseball, and these players are just standing around 95% of the time. I'm sure that when LBJ was given a LM game, that he clearly needed it, or that the seed was locked up and nothing to be gained with him playing.

BTW, how many LM games has he had the last several years? He played all 82 games two year ago. You also have to consider that he's been the Finals 8 years in a row and that obviously takes a toll on the body.

But even disregarding that, he plays more regular season minutes than anybody else in the league this decade. If he needs a few LM games along the way, sure. You get a freaking pass when you already play more than anyone else. End of story.
couldnt disagree more.... you dont get to take days off becuase you are tired lol...all youre doing is setting a precedent for future players and the league that its OK to not play because you play a lot of minutes. take a step further, how many role players play huge minutes? they dont get the luxury of taking nights off simply because they arent a star...how is that fair?

and ive been trying to find an exact number by year but cant find anything....

but there is this quote from Lebron from 4 years ago. so even your lord and savior Lebron James was against sitting out games if not injured.


4 years ago – via Cleveland Plain Dealer

LeBron James not thrilled about sitting out

It’s possible that had the Cavs’ game against the Pelicans gone differently – like, no overtime, no five-alarm-fire effort by James in the fourth quarter – he might’ve played against the Heat. James’ is indeed healthy, a source said, and “that’s why he wasn’t thrilled with the concept” of sitting out.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:30 PM   #72505
bruceames bruceames is offline
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Again, that's a little hardcore. I'm not against an occasional LM game under certain conditions.

1) the player needs rest

2) late in season

3) part of a back to back

4) the game is against a weak team (or a strong team that is also resting key players (or being injured).

5) seeding is locked up


Only a few of them, not as many as Pop did (and does) at SA. But in Kwahi's case, it's totally the opposite

1) very early in season, when everyone is still relatively fresh.

2) Kwahi feels perfectly fine (per Doc Rivers)

3) playing against a tough opponent.

Let's face it, the NBA season is long and we are seeing waay too many injuries to key player, many of which are frankly overuse injuries (and others due to players being bigger and stronger and faster). I do think LM has a place in an 82 game NBA season, but not in week 2 obviously.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:57 PM   #72506
BeastCreatureTrapper BeastCreatureTrapper is online now
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Originally Posted by Beefbowl View Post
Fans are very loyal and very forgiving. They'll put up with almost anything as long as they win.

XFL is a horrible example though. They never had fans to begin with.
The XFL is the most extreme example because it is the most compact A -> Z example of the actual business model at work.

And, in all fairness, I felt the need to take an easy shot at the reupcoming XFL.

That's why I also included the MLB example. At one point, the NBA was not so great, actually quite awful, and MLB was the bigger draw.

Hard to imagine that now, right?

Yes, fans are forgiving (to be kind in my choice of wording there) and it's not like any of these leagues are ever going away entirely....but the public interest and the fanbase can (and will) slowly erode over time if certain factors and trends aren't addressed. It's such a gradual process that we may not see the NBA drop that drastically in popularity in our respective lifetimes, but the erosion is still happening, all the same.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:00 PM   #72507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefbowl View Post
XFL is a horrible example though. They never had fans to begin with.
I was.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:11 PM   #72508
BeastCreatureTrapper BeastCreatureTrapper is online now
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Originally Posted by Lacit170 View Post
this will never work for a multiple of reasons. a medical trainer cant judge pain tolerance from a test. if a player is too sore to play or something, that is up to the player and not a doctor essentially.
This is a common misconception from the layman's side of the fence. Modern vagiliscoping has set the proper parameters for pain threshold and performance clearance, and is used in many walks of life to great success.

Going with your stance though, and going back to my earlier provisions: Fine, let the player ultimately decide they don't want to play, then the contract should decide to not pay them. And, if they miss over a certain threshold of games, impose fines at that point as well.

It's fair for both parties. You shouldn't get paid for a job you're not doing, and if the team has you on an active roster but you're not performing for a significant part of the season, then you are devaluing the team and the league's overall value, and your pay for services should be prorated as such.

For the player who is sincerely injured, they wouldn't feel forced to play, and could prolong their career. They won't be making as much money as they potentially could have, but they weren't working for that money anyway.

Last edited by BeastCreatureTrapper; 11-08-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:14 PM   #72509
Lacit170 Lacit170 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Again, that's a little hardcore. I'm not against an occasional LM game under certain conditions.

1) the player needs rest

2) late in season

3) part of a back to back

4) the game is against a weak team (or a strong team that is also resting key players (or being injured).

5) seeding is locked up


Only a few of them, not as many as Pop did (and does) at SA. But in Kwahi's case, it's totally the opposite

1) very early in season, when everyone is still relatively fresh.

2) Kwahi feels perfectly fine (per Doc Rivers)

3) playing against a tough opponent.

Let's face it, the NBA season is long and we are seeing waay too many injuries to key player, many of which are frankly overuse injuries (and others due to players being bigger and stronger and faster). I do think LM has a place in an 82 game NBA season, but not in week 2 obviously.
yea, we are never going to see eye to eye on this.

a player needing rest is a pathetic reason. part of back to back, pathetic reason. and late in season would be applicable if related to your playoff seeding reason.

and just you wait, all the stars will start demanding they get what Kawhi is getting. we'll see random DNP/LM days early in the season like Kawhi.

How much longer until Lebron gets a rest day do you think? ill bet you it happens in November....
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:14 PM   #72510
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Originally Posted by BizCat View Post
I was.
I still have The Million Dollar Game spread out over two VHS tapes.

Tommy Maddox, at the peak of his powers.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:46 PM   #72511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Every game that a player is uninjured. Exceptions would be meaningless games late in the season where they have the seed locked up. Kwahi is only averaging 30 minutes a game when he does play, so if he takes 20 games off this year for load management, then he's effectively in less the half the time the team is on the court during the season.

Look, I understand if Kwahi can't do back to back because his entourage considers the risk/reward proposition too high. I don't think he's calling the shots and is just doing what he's told. So can't blame him. But let's just call it as it is. He's not a full time player, GMAB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Except for last year when he missed the last part of the season due to injury, Lebron has lead the league in total minutes played during the regular season, 4 out of the last 8 years, and finished in the top 4 the other four years. I didn't go back further than that to check, but I suspect the results will be similar. No one is one the court more than Lebron, year in and year out. It's dumb (or more likely, just trolling me) to even suggest he's a part time player.
You went from missing games when uninjured to avg mins per game. Which is it? Load management and avg mins per game are two different things. Don't change the topic to fit your narrative.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:50 PM   #72512
bruceames bruceames is offline
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Originally Posted by Beefbowl View Post
You went from missing games when uninjured to avg mins per game. Which is it? Load management and avg mins per game are two different things.
Not at all. Total minutes played = total volume. LM has direct correlation with volume. That's much more meaningful than the number of games played or missed. A player who only plays 30 minutes a game would be less likely to need a LM game than someone who plays 36 minutes. It's all about volume.


But...if you're a stickler for number of games played, regardless of minutes (assuming starter minutes of course), then I would say that Lebron is at least in the top 10 in total games played this decade.

Edit: just checked that among active players, only Vince Carter has played in more regular season games than Lebron, and he came into the league 5 years before him. Of course Lebron has more time on the floor than Vince (as he has been coming off the bench for many years). I have a feeling you have no clue of what load management is all about, if you're using games played rather than minutes as a yardstick. Kwahi load is being managed within the game as well (only 30 minutes a game). It's just that they don't feel that's limiting enough, so they sit him out for games as well, further reducing the load on his body.

Last edited by bruceames; 11-08-2019 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:00 PM   #72513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Not at all. Total minutes played = total volume. LM has direct correlation with volume. That's much more meaningful than the number of games played or missed. A player who only plays 30 minutes a game would be less likely to need a LM game than someone who plays 36 minutes. It's all about volume.


But...if you're a stickler for number of games played, regardless of minutes (assuming starter minutes of course), then I would say that Lebron is at least in the top 10 in total games played this decade.
i think the bottom line is this whole "Load Management" nonsense needs to have definitive guidelines set by the nba to avoid confusion, who qualifies, who doesnt etc...

all it is at this point is an excuse for players/management to sit their players when they should really be playing.

like ive said all along, where is the proof that taking a few games off during the year gives the player "x" amount of boosted energy in the playoffs... its absurd honestly.... resting in November wont help you in May....resting leading up to the playoffs, sure, gives your body time to rest and heal, otherwise, its a mockery to the league
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:01 PM   #72514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Not at all. Total minutes played = total volume. LM has direct correlation with volume. That's much more meaningful than the number of games played or missed. A player who only plays 30 minutes a game would be less likely to need a LM game than someone who plays 36 minutes. It's all about volume.


But...if you're a stickler for number of games played, regardless of minutes (assuming starter minutes of course), then I would say that Lebron is at least in the top 10 in total games played this decade.
I asked you what was considered a full time player. You said
EVERY GAME UNINJURED


So how did we go from that to oh he plays more mins than everyone else so he can miss games for load management?
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:04 PM   #72515
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Originally Posted by BeastCreatureTrapper View Post
This is a common misconception from the layman's side of the fence. Modern vagiliscoping has set the proper parameters for pain threshold and performance clearance, and is used in many walks of life to great success.

Going with your stance though, and going back to my earlier provisions: Fine, let the player ultimately decide they don't want to play, then the contract should decide to not pay them. And, if they miss over a certain threshold of games, impose fines at that point as well.

It's fair for both parties. You shouldn't get paid for a job you're not doing, and if the team has you on an active roster but you're not performing for a significant part of the season, then you are devaluing the team and the league's overall value, and your pay for services should be prorated as such.

For the player who is sincerely injured, they wouldn't feel forced to play, and could prolong their career. They won't be making as much money as they potentially could have, but they weren't working for that money anyway.
it will never happen. if the nba were to make a player play who says theyre injured...and that person injures themselves further, what do you think the recourse would be?
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:17 PM   #72516
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To change gears here lol...


Being reported Steph Curry may be out for the season. Reports are the fracture was worse then original reported but I don;t buy that. Tanking for the Dubs has officially commenced.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:34 PM   #72517
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To change gears here lol...


Being reported Steph Curry may be out for the season. Reports are the fracture was worse then original reported but I don;t buy that. Tanking for the Dubs has officially commenced.
Warriors refuting the story. Bucher is pretty unreliable source. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if he's out for the season.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:51 PM   #72518
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They may as well sit him out for the season. Going to be February before they even give an update, so only a few months left in the season assuming best case he returns then. And they will not be in the playoff hunt so makes sense to give him very limited minutes at best if he does come back (just enough to shake the rust off) so they can give the younger players the extra minutes. Besides, Steph has played a ton the last several year when you consider the playoffs. Maybe it's the thing he needs.
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Old 11-09-2019, 01:19 AM   #72519
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Again, that's a little hardcore.
He would be less hardcore about it if he wasn’t a LeBron-hating boomer. It certainly matters (in his continued ridicule of resting/load management) that LeBron has rested a few games leading up to the playoffs over the years.

Last edited by Naiera; 11-09-2019 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 11-09-2019, 03:27 AM   #72520
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The fact that we are discussing Kawhi's load management issues in the month of (No Nut) November hasn't been lost on me.

Thank you guys for having better restraint than myself...
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