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Old 01-30-2018, 10:28 PM   #21
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erman_94 View Post
If you had to pick between the Epson 5040, Optoma UHD65 or Sony 45ES, which would you choose and why?

I think I understand the tone mapping, but if I were to have a standard blu ray or a UHD blu ray playing on just a 1080p projector, would there be a noticeable difference between those?

And here I thought it was magical haha
I would pick the Sony 45ES. The Epson does not seem to be reliable, and even though it has a lower price tag (within 4K projectors) I donít think the risk is worth it. The Optoma lacks the contrast, color quality, and good black levels of both the Sony and Epson so I personally wouldnít even consider that one. I would go with the Sony.

I believe the OPPO can scale 4K 10-bit and 12-bit color to 1080p. Since SDR on standard blu-rays is limited to 8-bits, you might get slightly better color rendering from most 4K sources if the Sony can accept 1080p 10-bit color from its HDMI input (after the OPPO has made the conversion), but it wonít provide a huge difference. I canít test that unfortunately since I donít own the projector.
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Old 01-31-2018, 02:12 AM   #22
Erman_94 Erman_94 is offline
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Originally Posted by JurassicBD View Post
Oppo only made two models with the Darbee engine, the 103D and 105D. I presume that either Darbee doesn't support UHD discs or they figured with HDR and UHD's color improvements, it wasn't worth increasing production costs even more. Who knows, maybe they'll add it next gen. Also, it seems that a lot of customers with more conventional flat panels preferred the 103 (non Darbee edition). It's likely that some just liked the price better and were justifying. But many reported that Darbee made the image look artificial or processed. I haven't used it with anything other than DLP projection personally, and have found it very worthwhile there, as have former colleagues of mine who still evaluate technology professionally. Which Kris Deering's glowing endorsement in his review is the main reason I gave Darbee a second look. That said, whether there's some conflict innate to limitations with flat panel displays or whether it's just a case of user error... - which is most likely as most consumers tend to overdrive contrast and sharpness and/or use modes with artificial enhancers/filters already enabled, that would no doubt reflect badly when adding even a well designed image enhancer like Darbee on top of the other processing. The 103 (non-darbee edition) has even been found to soften the image. So, that tells you a lot about the viewing conditions for anyone who might find it preferable.

The 203 would be the better buy, if you're buying a 4K projector (whether full 4K or faux) and plan on collecting UHD BDs, which should look better than 1080p BD with Darbee processing, depending on the capabilities of the projector. Of course, that's something you have to weigh yourself. If you own a lot of BDs and DVDs that'll be your primary source of disc-based entertainment, the 103D might still prove overall more beneficial. The 103D will sample just about any source to 4K, but can't play UHD discs, like the 203. Another benefit of the 203 is that it's a current player that's still being supported by Oppo. While Oppo can still repair older generations, they aren't supporting them with firmware updates any longer, which could result in some compatibility issues with BD spec changes. I haven't come across any yet myself, but I keep both PS3 and PS4 backups should such arise.

I have a PS4 Pro too. I don't stream, so I'm not sure if there's an audio limitation there. I know a lot of people were not happy that it doesn't support UHD discs though, when even the XboxOne S does. It was very surprising of Sony, considering they have more stake in UHD BD than any other content provider. But I believe their motivation was to beat Microsoft's price, as Sony hasn't been too financially sound in recent years, so they've been playing it safe in a lot of areas of their business.



They make screens specifically engineered to repel ambient light in the room too. But, I'd suggest using a table or floor lamp with a dark shade to direct most of the light down (if you're going all out, don't leave paint the ceiling white), or wall sconces, rope light and other ambient lighting. I've put in track lighting with about a 8 dimmable PAR20s (or whatever the LED equivalent is) with barn doors on them, so I could direct the beams where I wanted them.

My previous post was based on your indication that you had complete light control. Again, yes, screen size and projector brightness have directly correlating affects on what screen gain might be optimal. Be sure to check reviews, as projector specs often differ from real world testing. I've owned several Sony's. Sony's don't tend to be as bright as cheaper DLPs, as they're design is one purely for HT, where a lot of DLPs are essentially repurposed data-projectors that've been modified to fit multiple markets. Lower lumen projectors benefit more from higher gain screens. But you might also want to consider the future before investing 2k in a screen that may prove less desirable should laser LED become more affordable. When picking a screen you also have to consider the screen material and projector mount. For some high gain screens, the projector needs to be mounted straight-on for optimal benefit. But with most, mounting above (inverted) or below the screen works fine. With Sony's very flexible image shifting, you can pretty much mount the projector about anywhere you need. But some projectors have a fixed offset requiring mounting at a certain height range above or below the screen, which could be problematic if you have a ceiling lower than the usual 8 feet.
Thank you so much for the detailed reply. I really appreciate it.

So I get that if I get a 4K projector that the 203 would suit my needs. But if I end up getting a 1080p projector, would a 203 be better or a 103D? Or does it simply matter whether I am viewing mostly standard blu Rays or uhd blu Rays? And also, would buying uhd discs and playing them on a 203 even make a difference if I'm only using a 1080p projector?

Lots to think about in terms of the screen gain/material. Any particular brands you recommend? EluneVision is big here in Canada...any thoughts on it?

Thanks!
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Old 01-31-2018, 02:14 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post
I would pick the Sony 45ES. The Epson does not seem to be reliable, and even though it has a lower price tag (within 4K projectors) I donít think the risk is worth it. The Optoma lacks the contrast, color quality, and good black levels of both the Sony and Epson so I personally wouldnít even consider that one. I would go with the Sony.

I believe the OPPO can scale 4K 10-bit and 12-bit color to 1080p. Since SDR on standard blu-rays is limited to 8-bits, you might get slightly better color rendering from most 4K sources if the Sony can accept 1080p 10-bit color from its HDMI input (after the OPPO has made the conversion), but it wonít provide a huge difference. I canít test that unfortunately since I donít own the projector.
Would the Sony be good for tv (mostly sports) and gaming? I know that its main focus is movies and it does that well, but what about other viewing?

Also, any idea when info about the next year's projectors will be coming out? Maybe true 4K will be more affordable by then.
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:15 AM   #24
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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It has a very low input lag (I read 22 ms). So it should be very good for gaming. It seems it also has a 240hz refresh rate with its "Motion Enhancer" so it should also be good for sports since it has a high refresh rate for its frame interpolation feature (less blur in fast moving objects if you enable this setting).

New projectors are usually announced during CEDIA which happens around September every year and then they become available for consumers around November or later. So it will be a while until the new ones are announced/available. Given the best/cheapest 4K projector is currently $5000 (the cheapest Sony 4K projector model), I am thinking low prices for worthy quality won't be available until at least two years from now. You could also wait until around January of 2019 when this year's models will be on "clearance" to make room for the new models of that year, however I don't think the good ones (like the Sony 4K) will fall to $3500 or so. Probably closer to $4250-$4500. So I would say at least two years until that quality is available for $3500 or so. That is just me taking an educated guess, however.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:07 AM   #25
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If you get a 4K pj, be it real 4K or faux 4K, AND if you plan on collecting UHD discs too, the 203 would be the only choice between the two. If you stick with 1080p projection or aren't planning to collect UHD discs, the 103D would offer performance improvements over the 203. But the 103D can't play UHD discs, it can only up-sample BD to 4K, which isn't the same quality, or at least it shouldn't be if the UHD disc was mastered and authored optimally. Not being able to play UHD discs aside, the 103D is the better player in terms of features.

The Sony being more tuned for home theater just means it has more features and adjustment parameters suited for such and they've balanced it's output for dark theater-like environments, more than projectors that were originally designed for graphic presentations in bright or semi-bright board rooms. It'll work fine with TV and games. I gamed on a Sony VW60 for years. It was great for gaming.

Just be sure you set aside a hundred bucks or so on a decent sine-wave battery backup for the PJ, like the Cyberpower 1000. Proper cool-down is crucial with projectors. If you lose power suddenly, the heat from the lamp isn't expelled, which will result in discoloration of the panel or even melted/warped parts. I learned that the hard way with my last Sony. And from what I was told, if that happens, the Sony isn't worth fixing, you're better off buying a new projector, at least if Sony's doing the repair.

Last edited by JurassicBD; 01-31-2018 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:28 PM   #26
Erman_94 Erman_94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post
It has a very low input lag (I read 22 ms). So it should be very good for gaming. It seems it also has a 240hz refresh rate with its "Motion Enhancer" so it should also be good for sports since it has a high refresh rate for its frame interpolation feature (less blur in fast moving objects if you enable this setting).

New projectors are usually announced during CEDIA which happens around September every year and then they become available for consumers around November or later. So it will be a while until the new ones are announced/available. Given the best/cheapest 4K projector is currently $5000 (the cheapest Sony 4K projector model), I am thinking low prices for worthy quality won't be available until at least two years from now. You could also wait until around January of 2019 when this year's models will be on "clearance" to make room for the new models of that year, however I don't think the good ones (like the Sony 4K) will fall to $3500 or so. Probably closer to $4250-$4500. So I would say at least two years until that quality is available for $3500 or so. That is just me taking an educated guess, however.
Thanks for the info on the Sony!

Wishful thinking on my part with the 4K projectors though

Are there any other projectors in this price range that I haven't looked at that you could recommend? Or am I simply looking at the Sony for best 1080p at this price and the Epson for best faux-k at this price as well?

Also, any recommendations on screens?
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by JurassicBD View Post
If you stick with 1080p projection or aren't planning to collect UHD discs, the 103D would offer performance improvements over the 203. But the 103D can't play UHD discs, it can only up-sample BD to 4K, which isn't the same quality, or at least it shouldn't be if the UHD disc was mastered and authored optimally. Not being able to play UHD discs aside, the 103D is the better player in terms of features.


Just be sure you set aside a hundred bucks or so on a decent sine-wave battery backup for the PJ, like the Cyberpower 1000. Proper cool-down is crucial with projectors. If you lose power suddenly, the heat from the lamp isn't expelled, which will result in discoloration of the panel or even melted/warped parts. I learned that the hard way with my last Sony. And from what I was told, if that happens, the Sony isn't worth fixing, you're better off buying a new projector, at least if Sony's doing the repair.
Thanks for the clarification. Would the 103D be able to upscale standard blu rays to 4k even though the Sony pj is only 1080p capable? How would that work?

Thanks for the tip on the battery backup! Is there anything else I should look into? Like power conditioners or surge protectors etc? Or are those just smoke and mirrors?

Also, which would you choose between the Sony 45es and the Epson 5040ub?
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erman_94 View Post
Thanks for the clarification. Would the 103D be able to upscale standard blu rays to 4k even though the Sony pj is only 1080p capable? How would that work?

Thanks for the tip on the battery backup! Is there anything else I should look into? Like power conditioners or surge protectors etc? Or are those just smoke and mirrors?

Also, which would you choose between the Sony 45es and the Epson 5040ub?
All digital displays are fixed resolution. Whatever resolution you send it at some point has to be converted to the resolution of the panel. In the Sony's case that being 1080x1920. So whatever the source is, be it 1080p BD, 1080i/720p broadcast, or 480i dvd, either the output device (player or STB), the display itself, or some component in between (dedicated video processor, audio/video receiver) has to turn that signal into the displays native resolution. If the signal is already natively matching the resolution of the display, which is ideal, you want the display to leave the signal untouched, known as 1:1 pixel mapping. Some displays process the signal regardless, which is highly undesirable the larger the screen size. Sony has always been good about supporting 1:1 mapping though - most display geared for HT are. It's the cheaper ones you have to be more careful with. Though Toshiba used to be bad about forcing unnecessary processing even in promoted hi-fi gear. Also, passing the signal through an AVR is a common area where unwanted video processing is added. That's another benefit of Oppo's featuring multiple HDMI outs, so you can sent the video to the display and audio to the AVR or PrePro separately, which also helps with HDMI handshake issues.

I don't know if the Sony can actually accept a 4K signal, but I highly doubt there's anything to be gained if it can. You'd just be adding an extra processing step that can only be deleterious to the signal at best, generate/aggravate artifacts at worst. The 103D can sample 1080p to 4K, but it wouldn't be advisable unless pairing with a 4K or faux 4K display.

Like most batter backups, the Cyberpower features surge suppression as well. As for power conditioning, APC has some affordable options, but such isn't really all that necessary unless you live in an area that's really bad about brown-outs: if your lights dim frequently in your area, power conditioning might be worth checking into. But, you're not going to see a performance difference as some manufacturers claim. At best it could extend the life of the electronics, IF you live in a bad area. Simple surge is all that's warranted for most. Electronics are designed to handle otherwise normal power fluctuations.

I'd have to do more research on the Epson to make that call. I think Sony is the more stable brand, as far as build and reliability. But, the Epson seems clearly the more ambitious design in terms of PQ capability and is the one that personally excites me more. But, I've never even seen an Epson in action, so I don't know how well their LCD design fairs against Sony's SXRD (LCD derivative) and would want to see it first hand or need to look for direct comparisons between the two from people who have, before making that determination. I'm also unclear whether Epson's problems stem from design flaws that affect everyone or is more of a coin toss whether or not you get a lemon due to cost cutting replication practices.

With the Epson you're essentially viewing 1080 too, since the native resolution of the panel isn't true 4K, it's also 1080x1920, they've just come up with a rather clever pixel shift to simulate the 4K look. But from what I've read it sounds like it at least starts to take advantage of HDR and the enhanced color gamut of UHD, which considering most UHD presentations are still being upsampled from 2K sources by the studios, HDR and color benefits might surpass that of the displays resolution even with UHD discs.

Last edited by JurassicBD; 01-31-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:39 PM   #29
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Erman_94 View Post
Thanks for the info on the Sony!

Wishful thinking on my part with the 4K projectors though

Are there any other projectors in this price range that I haven't looked at that you could recommend? Or am I simply looking at the Sony for best 1080p at this price and the Epson for best faux-k at this price as well?

Also, any recommendations on screens?
Yeah... I’m sure they’ll get there but the technology is still pretty new so it’s going to take a little while for prices to come down.

Not really TBH. I think there might be a bit of stock left on other 1080p projectors from Sony but from what I’ve seen the price difference (they’re all more expensive) is not worth the extra features and slight jump in quality. Beyond the HW45ES diminishing returns catches up pretty fast.

Same for the Epson. The 50X0 line they have has been probably the best bang for your buck projector models for home theater enthusiasts for some years now. It’s kind of sad to see they’re having quality issues now. I used to have a 5030 but sold it when I made the jump to 4K. Not sure if it was just a batch or something but I’ve seen people here and on AVSForum having issues with the 5040. If it was just a batch then they probably fixed it and the next batch won’t have those issues but it’s hard to tell. I would suggest going over to AVSForum and finding the thread of Epson 5040 owners to track any problems/fixes or updates regarding it. Epson is usually pretty good with their customers but if they haven’t fixed whatever issues or production problems they have then you might end up going through various replacements; which would turn into a PITA having to either ship it and waiting for a replacement every time or making various trips to your store, plus the work of boxing it and unboxing it and connecting/disconnecting with each replacement. It depends on you of course. You might end up with a good unit and never have to replace it. I just thought it’d be good for you to know this before deciding.

Screens-wise it depends. You might want to do some research first to see what you’re interested in as there are different configurations you might have. Fixed screens, pull-downs, tensioned or not, sizes, bezels, etc. There are many options, some probably more suited for your environment than others, and the prices range from the low hundreds to the high thousands, so it’s almost like picking a TV on just the projector screen alone lol. If you narrow it down for us we can help you pick one .

Last edited by samlop10; 01-31-2018 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:58 AM   #30
Erman_94 Erman_94 is offline
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Originally Posted by JurassicBD View Post
All digital displays are fixed resolution. Whatever resolution you send it at some point has to be converted to the resolution of the panel. In the Sony's case that being 1080x1920. So whatever the source is, be it 1080p BD, 1080i/720p broadcast, or 480i dvd, either the output device (player or STB), the display itself, or some component in between (dedicated video processor, audio/video receiver) has to turn that signal into the displays native resolution. If the signal is already natively matching the resolution of the display, which is ideal, you want the display to leave the signal untouched, known as 1:1 pixel mapping. Some displays process the signal regardless, which is highly undesirable the larger the screen size. Sony has always been good about supporting 1:1 mapping though - most display geared for HT are. It's the cheaper ones you have to be more careful with. Though Toshiba used to be bad about forcing unnecessary processing even in promoted hi-fi gear. Also, passing the signal through an AVR is a common area where unwanted video processing is added. That's another benefit of Oppo's featuring multiple HDMI outs, so you can sent the video to the display and audio to the AVR or PrePro separately, which also helps with HDMI handshake issues.

I don't know if the Sony can actually accept a 4K signal, but I highly doubt there's anything to be gained if it can. You'd just be adding an extra processing step that can only be deleterious to the signal at best, generate/aggravate artifacts at worst. The 103D can sample 1080p to 4K, but it wouldn't be advisable unless pairing with a 4K or faux 4K display.

Like most batter backups, the Cyberpower features surge suppression as well. As for power conditioning, APC has some affordable options, but such isn't really all that necessary unless you live in an area that's really bad about brown-outs: if your lights dim frequently in your area, power conditioning might be worth checking into. But, you're not going to see a performance difference as some manufacturers claim. At best it could extend the life of the electronics, IF you live in a bad area. Simple surge is all that's warranted for most. Electronics are designed to handle otherwise normal power fluctuations.

I'd have to do more research on the Epson to make that call. I think Sony is the more stable brand, as far as build and reliability. But, the Epson seems clearly the more ambitious design in terms of PQ capability and is the one that personally excites me more. But, I've never even seen an Epson in action, so I don't know how well their LCD design fairs against Sony's SXRD (LCD derivative) and would want to see it first hand or need to look for direct comparisons between the two from people who have, before making that determination. I'm also unclear whether Epson's problems stem from design flaws that affect everyone or is more of a coin toss whether or not you get a lemon due to cost cutting replication practices.

With the Epson you're essentially viewing 1080 too, since the native resolution of the panel isn't true 4K, it's also 1080x1920, they've just come up with a rather clever pixel shift to simulate the 4K look. But from what I've read it sounds like it at least starts to take advantage of HDR and the enhanced color gamut of UHD, which considering most UHD presentations are still being upsampled from 2K sources by the studios, HDR and color benefits might surpass that of the displays resolution even with UHD discs.
Thanks again for the awesome explanation. Much appreciated. Especially with regards to the HDMI handshake issue - I have always heard about it but never understood it until now.

So with what you said, aren't both the 103D and 203 beneficial for a potential 4K/faux K setup? The only drawback being that the 103D can not play UHD discs?

They are definitely making my decision a difficult one. I know that this faux-k is going to be a thing of the past sooner rather than later as true 4k projectors come down in price and also improve in technology, but I can't help but feel left out if I decide to go with the Sony. I just fear I will want to upgrade too soon.

Do you know anything about the 5040 vs. the 4040? From what I have read they are nearly identical and I can get a 4040 for pretty much on par with what I can get the Sony 45ES for.
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:05 AM   #31
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Yeah... Iím sure theyíll get there but the technology is still pretty new so itís going to take a little while for prices to come down.

Not really TBH. I think there might be a bit of stock left on other 1080p projectors from Sony but from what Iíve seen the price difference (theyíre all more expensive) is not worth the extra features and slight jump in quality. Beyond the HW45ES diminishing returns catches up pretty fast.

Same for the Epson. The 50X0 line they have has been probably the best bang for your buck projector models for home theater enthusiasts for some years now. Itís kind of sad to see theyíre having quality issues now. I used to have a 5030 but sold it when I made the jump to 4K. Not sure if it was just a batch or something but Iíve seen people here and on AVSForum having issues with the 5040. If it was just a batch then they probably fixed it and the next batch wonít have those issues but itís hard to tell. I would suggest going over to AVSForum and finding the thread of Epson 5040 owners to track any problems/fixes or updates regarding it. Epson is usually pretty good with their customers but if they havenít fixed whatever issues or production problems they have then you might end up going through various replacements; which would turn into a PITA having to either ship it and waiting for a replacement every time or making various trips to your store, plus the work of boxing it and unboxing it and connecting/disconnecting with each replacement. It depends on you of course. You might end up with a good unit and never have to replace it. I just thought itíd be good for you to know this before deciding.

Screens-wise it depends. You might want to do some research first to see what youíre interested in as there are different configurations you might have. Fixed screens, pull-downs, tensioned or not, sizes, bezels, etc. There are many options, some probably more suited for your environment than others, and the prices range from the low hundreds to the high thousands, so itís almost like picking a TV on just the projector screen alone lol. If you narrow it down for us we can help you pick one .
I definitely appreciate the heads up with regards to the Epson and some reported problems. I am certainly going to look into it further and see what the consensus is.

It terms of screen, I definitely know that I want a fixed screen with slim bezels (0.75" or so). In terms of size, I am thinking 120-125" (with a likely viewing distance of 12-13 feet).

The only things I am unsure of are screen gain and whether or not to employ a CIH setup. In fact, trying to wrap my head around CIH is difficult. I have heard of "masking" systems but find the concept confusing. Not sure if you could shed some light on that and whether it would be beneficial to have.

I would say $1,000 is roughly the budget I was thinking for a screen, but not sure if that would be too little based on the projectors I am looking at. Are there particular screens more suited for each particular projector? From what I understand, a screen can make or break the image from the projector and is not a place to cut corners.

Any info you could give would be greatly appreciated and thank you so much for the help thus far!
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:28 AM   #32
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Another way to look at faux 4K is "enhanced 1080p". That's probably the more honest name, but it's less marketable. And calling it that, they'd no doubt miss out on all the sales from people who might think they're buying the real thing due to poor etailer specs and ignorant showroom floor salespersons.

It's kind of akin to when HD was young and some manufacturers came out with ED (Enhanced Definition) displays, which were essentially progressively scanned DVD res (480p - DVD is actually an interlaced format at 480i) in a 16:9 window instead of 4:3. It was cheaper than buying an HD display, and offered performance improvements over SD displays for those who wanted to maximize their viewing experience with the majority of sources available at the time, without paying the HD premium, but ultimately a short-lived stepping stone that most don't even remember.

That said, considering the projector market doesn't benefit from the same kind of demand and associated aggressive competition that conventional displays do, faux 4K may hang around longer than EDTVs did. Sony did a lot to drive 1080p projection early on, partly because they knew the projector market was the one that stood to gain the most from Blu-ray. Regardless of their motivation, 1080p projection reached affordability at a surprisingly fast rate. And once all the data projector manufacturers realized they could open up their market to the HT crowd, simply by switching to 1080 panels, projection really dropped in price. But, Sony seems to have dropped their projection ambitions since then. And while they're still the reigning champ for genuine 4K projection under 10k, they seem content with going after the higher end market for the moment, rather than driving costs down. But, a flourishing UHD disc market could always change that. It's off to a good start. And TI doesn't seem to have really gotten 4K fever yet. But, I didn't look at any of the announcements at this years CES yet.

Last edited by JurassicBD; 02-01-2018 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Erman_94 View Post
I definitely appreciate the heads up with regards to the Epson and some reported problems. I am certainly going to look into it further and see what the consensus is.

It terms of screen, I definitely know that I want a fixed screen with slim bezels (0.75" or so). In terms of size, I am thinking 120-125" (with a likely viewing distance of 12-13 feet).

The only things I am unsure of are screen gain and whether or not to employ a CIH setup. In fact, trying to wrap my head around CIH is difficult. I have heard of "masking" systems but find the concept confusing. Not sure if you could shed some light on that and whether it would be beneficial to have.

I would say $1,000 is roughly the budget I was thinking for a screen, but not sure if that would be too little based on the projectors I am looking at. Are there particular screens more suited for each particular projector? From what I understand, a screen can make or break the image from the projector and is not a place to cut corners.

Any info you could give would be greatly appreciated and thank you so much for the help thus far!
Check out Eastporters if you're in Canada... good prices on projectors and screen combo's. If you're thinking $1,000 on a screen you likely aren't going to find any automatic masking. I've got one of their elunevision screens with their high gain material and I am quite happy with it. They also sell the thin bezel screens you're talking about, though I still prefer the wider ones myself. If you're local to Oakville they have a showroom and you can demo projectors there, great folks there, I've been buying from them for years.

A constant height setup is great, I had one once, but based on what you say you're going to use this setup for I think it would be limiting for you if you have more wall height than width in your room. I'd be more interested in maximizing your screen area, so if the room suits it go for it, but I wouldn't give up area just to go CIH.

Check out my gallery and look at my first setup, I was determined to go CIH and it look really cool (IMO) but whenever I watched 1.78 content I had a MUCH smaller picture to watch than if I were to have gone with a 1.78 screen. Picture gaming on that setup... pretty much all games are 1.78, I played with black bars on the side and sacrificed a lot of screen area... not look at version two of my theatre, second time around I went 1.78, maxed out my area and now I played video games at that size... sure... my 2.4 content had black bars on the top and bottom of the screen, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as bars on the left and right for 1.78 content when more height was available. Now if my room was wider than tall... then I'd go 2.4 all day long.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:58 AM   #34
Erman_94 Erman_94 is offline
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Another way to look at faux 4K is "enhanced 1080p". That's probably the more honest name, but it's less marketable. And calling it that, they'd no doubt miss out on all the sales from people who might think they're buying the real thing due to poor etailer specs and ignorant showroom floor salespersons.

It's kind of akin to when HD was young and some manufacturers came out with ED (Enhanced Definition) displays, which were essentially progressively scanned DVD res (480p - DVD is actually an interlaced format at 480i) in a 16:9 window instead of 4:3. It was cheaper than buying an HD display, and offered performance improvements over SD displays for those who wanted to maximize their viewing experience with the majority of sources available at the time, without paying the HD premium, but ultimately a short-lived stepping stone that most don't even remember.

That said, considering the projector market doesn't benefit from the same kind of demand and associated aggressive competition that conventional displays do, faux 4K may hang around longer than EDTVs did. Sony did a lot to drive 1080p projection early on, partly because they knew the projector market was the one that stood to gain the most from Blu-ray. Regardless of their motivation, 1080p projection reached affordability at a surprisingly fast rate. And once all the data projector manufacturers realized they could open up their market to the HT crowd, simply by switching to 1080 panels, projection really dropped in price. But, Sony seems to have dropped their projection ambitions since then. And while they're still the reigning champ for genuine 4K projection under 10k, they seem content with going after the higher end market for the moment, rather than driving costs down. But, a flourishing UHD disc market could always change that. It's off to a good start. And TI doesn't seem to have really gotten 4K fever yet. But, I didn't look at any of the announcements at this years CES yet.
Yeah, I have always liked Sony as a brand and for their innovation. I just can't see myself spending that much for a true 4K projector at this time. Hopefully the prices come down in the future if UHD really hits off as you alluded to.

What are your thoughts on CIH setups? Does it only make sense if your theatre is strictly for movies and/or you have more width than height on your projecting wall? How do they work? Is it an electronic mask that switches at the touch of a button? Or do you manually put up the panels yourself?
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:01 AM   #35
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Check out Eastporters if you're in Canada... good prices on projectors and screen combo's. If you're thinking $1,000 on a screen you likely aren't going to find any automatic masking. I've got one of their elunevision screens with their high gain material and I am quite happy with it. They also sell the thin bezel screens you're talking about, though I still prefer the wider ones myself. If you're local to Oakville they have a showroom and you can demo projectors there, great folks there, I've been buying from them for years.

A constant height setup is great, I had one once, but based on what you say you're going to use this setup for I think it would be limiting for you if you have more wall height than width in your room. I'd be more interested in maximizing your screen area, so if the room suits it go for it, but I wouldn't give up area just to go CIH.

Check out my gallery and look at my first setup, I was determined to go CIH and it look really cool (IMO) but whenever I watched 1.78 content I had a MUCH smaller picture to watch than if I were to have gone with a 1.78 screen. Picture gaming on that setup... pretty much all games are 1.78, I played with black bars on the side and sacrificed a lot of screen area... not look at version two of my theatre, second time around I went 1.78, maxed out my area and now I played video games at that size... sure... my 2.4 content had black bars on the top and bottom of the screen, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as bars on the left and right for 1.78 content when more height was available. Now if my room was wider than tall... then I'd go 2.4 all day long.
Thanks for the heads up. I actually do live close to Eastporters and demoed the Sony 45ES and Epson 5040/4040 there - I still can't make up my mind though. I may need to go do that one more time before deciding.

Can you tell me why you chose a high gain screen and what determined your choice? Also, why do you prefer the wider bezel?

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus when I ask people about CIH. They usually only recommend it when the width of the projection wall far exceeds the height - basically trying to maximize screen size.

Do you use masking for the black bars? Or simply let them stay as they would on a flat panel? Oh, and great setup! I really like seeing the work and evolution of it all. Well done!
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:33 AM   #36
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Thanks for the heads up. I actually do live close to Eastporters and demoed the Sony 45ES and Epson 5040/4040 there - I still can't make up my mind though. I may need to go do that one more time before deciding.

Can you tell me why you chose a high gain screen and what determined your choice? Also, why do you prefer the wider bezel?

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus when I ask people about CIH. They usually only recommend it when the width of the projection wall far exceeds the height - basically trying to maximize screen size.

Do you use masking for the black bars? Or simply let them stay as they would on a flat panel? Oh, and great setup! I really like seeing the work and evolution of it all. Well done!
No masking here, I'm completely content with black bars, they don't bother me one bit. My JVC, though old throws an adequate enough black to me that it is a non-issue. Now I've got some friends with brand new OLED screens with barely any bezel and you honestly can't even see the TV when the lights are off and a 2.4 picture is being shown, no way any projector at a reasonable price is going to get there but I've seen the 45ES in action and think its blacks are great.

As far as the width of the bezel, that is just a personal preference thing, I've had a front projection setup for a while and I've had several different looks, one where my entire screen wall was black velvet, another borderless screen and now the 2"-3" black velvet boarder and I like the look of a rich black velvet boarder best.

As far as screen gain goes, higher the gain the more light that is reflected back to you making a brighter picture. I've got a 100% light controlled room and I want as bright of a picture as I can get. My zoom isn't maxed, but as the bulb ages you loose brightness and a positive gain screen can only help in my opinion. If you've been to EP's Dave has some screen samples he can hold up in front of the screen while you're demoing showing the difference in gain. When I bought my screen almost 4 years ago now he showed me the difference between the high gain and lower gain screen and the decision was easy.

If you're close to eastporters than you're close to me You're welcome to come check out another setup if you've got the time. Drop me a PM if you're interested.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:39 PM   #37
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Yeah, I have always liked Sony as a brand and for their innovation. I just can't see myself spending that much for a true 4K projector at this time. Hopefully the prices come down in the future if UHD really hits off as you alluded to.

What are your thoughts on CIH setups? Does it only make sense if your theatre is strictly for movies and/or you have more width than height on your projecting wall? How do they work? Is it an electronic mask that switches at the touch of a button? Or do you manually put up the panels yourself?

Constant height is a novelty that will run the bill up, but is largely impractical. You only stand to gain if your screen area is disproportionately wide, and you want to go with the largest screen you can in that situation. I've rarely seen a room where I felt it "might" be worth the tradeoffs and added aggravation. The added expense is more subjective. But, even in situations where the screen wall seems more appropriate for that type of screen, when you examine the room, the wall they want to hang the screen on isn't the best wall in the room for the screen, often compromising acoustics, by putting the seating position against another wall, or even restricting the throw range to a shorter distance than most projectors can achieve the size screen that would actually make such a wide screen more desirable.

Early in the BD format, Sony was pushing BD's capabilities by promoting features like subtitle shift. But as soon as the format war was over, they pretty much stopped caring about niche consumers. No content provider is remotely concerned with constant height consumers. They're only interested in what's going to sell the most products, sadly. Since the format war ended, they've been far more focused on improving automation to reduce production overhead.

Almost all content is engineered for 16:9 displays and likely will be for the foreseeable future. This is particularly true of content designed specifically for home consumption, like TV and videogames. But even with BD, where they try to preserve the original anamorphic vision of the film, you're going to run into complications, like subtitles in the black bars, that'll be cut off with constant-height setups.

And again, unless the wall you're mounting your screen on is significantly broader than it is tall, going with a constant height screen will just mean having a smaller window to watch 16:9 content in, which amounts to the majority of content available, even if not including theatrical films framed at 1.85.

The only way I would recommend going constant height is if A: your screen wall would make such a screen shape optimal for both 2.35 and 1.78 (16:9) content, and B: you have such a passion for such a setup, the added expense, aggravation, and compromise doesn't concern you.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:01 PM   #38
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As for masking, it's a nice tweak. I didn't want to invest in electronic masking when I converted our HT to front projection roughly 15 years ago. So, I devised a system of manual masking and curtains that's easy to adjust for any aspect ratio content, using some Duvetyne theatrical fabric (similar to velveteen) I had left over from a previous project. That said, I haven't actually used the masking to cover letterboxing/pillarboxing in years. It still serves to absorb light spill though. Contrast levels with most projectors are a lot deeper than they used to be. It may still enhance the experience slightly with 2.35 content, so if I know there aren't any subtitle conflicts, I might adjust the masking if we have special guests. But with a good projector, in a light controlled room, you will not notice the black bars, be it letterboxing or pillarboxing, especially once you get engrossed in the film. Your brain still see's black, even when it's technically very deep gray, unless you're critically evaluating the PQ rather than letting yourself become engaged by the film.

There are much more affordable masking options now, which I might check into, if I was looking to change my screen. But, masking is becoming less and less significant as the technologies evolve. I suspect there won't be any benefit whatsoever, with laser projection, just as there isn't with OLED flatpanels.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:00 PM   #39
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As JurassicBD and roar mentioned, going CIH is more challenging and it’s hardly worth it IMO, unless, like mentioned above, you really like your 2.40:1 films to look as big as possible. Given that you want to game and watch TV with the projector also (which 99% of them is way closer to the 16:9 ratio), then I wouldn’t think it would be convenient for you.

If you were to decide to use CIH for 2.40:1 films, you’d need either a) a projector with lens memory (which the Sony 45ES does not have) b) manually zoom and lens shift back and forth every time the AR changes (for which both methods you would be sacrificing brightness due to the zoom), or c) a player or projector that can stretch the image vertically and have an anamorphic lens to stretch the image horizontally to keep the correct proportions and use all the light available from the projector (since in this case you do not need to zoom). The last option is the best one but you’d need to buy a player that can do such a stretching of the image (since I don’t think neither the Epson nor the Sony 45ES can do), plus the anamorphic lens. You’d be looking to spend at least another $1000 for both, and even then you’d get aberrations in the image since the cheaper anamorphic lenses do not correct for the artifacts introduced by doing the optical stretch.

So overall for the great majority of people, and especially for you since this would be your first time having a dedicated home theater space, I would not recommend going for CIH. The only times when it’s worth it, IMO, you’re looking to add another $2000 dollars, plus again, most games and TV content (plus some films) are closer to the 16:9 ratio. So it’d be pretty impractical for you to go with CIH IMO.

I’ll try to see if there are any screens available online to recommend later today, but I’d definitely go to your local store like roar recommended since it’s way easier to deal with stores in person and you can actually test the material. I’d recommend white with a 1.3 gain as it’s a good balance of keeping the image bright and not modifying or risking introducing artifacts like hot-spotting. Plus that material is also usually the cheapest anyway.

Edit: automatic masking is pretty cool but it’s also pricey. I wouldn’t recommend it now. Maybe later down the line when you’ve had the projector for a while and you can spend more on screen features.
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:05 AM   #40
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Wow, great conversation going on here! Im currently house hunting and one of the must haves is a room for where Ill be setting up my first dedicated home theatre. I plan on getting the JVC RS-540 (or the new version, if announced in the later half of the year). Im also located in the GTA and have been looking at eastporters and gibby's for prices. Ive got a lot to learn regarding this whole process so all this info is great!
Thanks for sharing everyone
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