Ask questions to BD authoring and compression insider "2themax"

[Seretur]

2themax -- not only are you a valuable addition to our shining set of insiders, but your posts are very informative for a total layman such as myself.

Thank you very much for your contributions, and hopefully you'll be here for ages to come!

[blindcat87]

Welcome and thanks so much for giving us some of your time.

From this answer, I really like the way you think. Hope your way of thinking becomes more standard. I am really hoping that the warm reception Shoot Em Up got will encourage New Line, WB and all associated studios to take the BD optimized video, best uncompressed audio available, etc. approach. To me, the audio is more important than the video, so I have passed on or waited for BOGO sales on a lot of titles I would have bought with lossless or uncompressed audio.

No real questions as of yet. Just wanted to join in welcoming you and to give you kudos for your viewpoint on audio tracks.

Chris

Originally Posted by 2themax

I don't know and you know that even if I did, I couldn't say. I do hope it does get a new encode and gets a bump to 24bit on the audio side too. I've seen and heard the uncompressed master for a portion of the film and all I can say is that the 24bit uncompressed audio is awesome for this movie.

[shueardm]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Have you tried Premiere Pro CS3 for encoding? I tested it, the MainConcept Reference Encoder, and Sony Vegas 8 for encoding and found Premiere to be the best quality.

.

That doesn't make sense to me because both Premiere and Vegas both use a MainConcept licensed AVC encoder and i would have thought they would be a "lesser" quality. I do have Premiere PRO CS3/Encore & Vegas 8. I can just let Encore do the encoding but I wanted the best encoding. I can't say i have actually given the Adobe encoder a fair go just out of "status".

[PaulGo]

When movies are made (without film) using digital equipment how is the product stored? Is it uncompressed, or do the use some compression. If they use compression what codec do they use and how much compression do they use.

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by 2themax

The original HD-DVD bitrate was about 19Mbps. The Blu-ray version is going to be around 34Mbps.

To be clear, I assume you are talking about PBR (peak) here. Is that right? Can you say what the ABRs (average) were for each?

Thanks,
Darin

[MarekM]

Originally Posted by darinp2

To be clear, I assume you are talking about PBR (peak) here. Is that right? Can you say what the ABRs (average) were for each?

Thanks,
Darin

+1 same question here....

or are those 19 and 34Mbps ABRs ?

Marek

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Bitrates always seem to be a heated topic. While in general I like higher bitrates myself, there is really a diminishing return after the mid 20's. In all honesty, the master delivered to the compressionist plays just as important of a role as the bitrate does. For instance, I'm working on a project right now that was for HD-DVD, but with the recent Warner news, was scrapped and reset for Blu-ray. Because of that, I was able to take advantage of the higher bitrate for Blu-ray. The original HD-DVD bitrate was about 19Mbps. The Blu-ray version is going to be around 34Mbps. Now given the giant leap in bitrate, you would expect a big jump in PQ. There wasn't. Why? The master just doesn't have the clarity to support it. Sure there are areas where it will look better or segments where reencoding will be easier with the extra bandwidth. But overall, the gain isn't that much because of the source.

Well, aren't bitrates what the format war was all about, and that was pretty heated?

I can certainly think of examples where it seemed that limitations in the source had the consequence that even with bitrates in the 30's, the PQ was not as outstanding as one would have liked (Cast Away, From Hell, Day After Tomorrow). Nevertheless, I was glad to see that level of bitrates in those titles, since it made me comfortable that the PQ limitations were in the source material and not in the bitrate. When I watch a movie that seems to have slight PQ problems and the bitrate is in the 20's, I don't know whether the problem is the source or the use of an insufficient bitrate level.

I can certainly appreciate that the improvement in PQ going from an ABR of 15 to an ABR of 25 will be vastly greater than the improvement in PQ going from an ABR of 25 to an ABR of 35, but that doesn't mean that the improvement going from 25 to 35 is non-existent or not detectable, at least in some cases. If I understood your answer correctly, based on your experience, in some cases the improvement will be greater than in other cases?

I am delighted to hear about your example of increasing the bitrate on a recent project from 19 to 34. That is exactly one of the big reasons why the Warner news was so welcome.

Finally, to get in a question, do you have an offhand guess or estimate as to what percentage of the projects you work on will or do benefit in a meaningful or significant way from bitrates in the 30's rather than bitrates in the 20's?

If you think that's a question where there are so many factors that a meaningful answer is not possible, that's fine.

Once again, many, many thanks for taking the time to give us the benefit of your insights!

[2themax]

Originally Posted by shueardm

That doesn't make sense to me because both Premiere and Vegas both use a MainConcept licensed AVC encoder and i would have thought they would be a "lesser" quality. I do have Premiere PRO CS3/Encore & Vegas 8. I can just let Encore do the encoding but I wanted the best encoding. I can't say i have actually given the Adobe encoder a fair go just out of "status".

I'll clarify that a bit. I would choose Premiere Pro because it will make a compliant stream for Scenarist. MainConcept's Reference Encoder does have a slightly sharper encode, but none of the streams would import into Scenarist. It can look perfect, but if no one can see them, what's the point?

[2themax]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

When movies are made (without film) using digital equipment how is the product stored? Is it uncompressed, or do the use some compression. If they use compression what codec do they use and how much compression do they use.

Unfortunately, that's a bit outside of what I deal with. The little I do know about the area would involve using a Sony CineAlta camera system. It's recorded to HD-CAM SR tape with up to RGB 4:4:4 color. It is compressed using MPEG-4 Studio Profile, but I don't know the compression ratio.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by darinp2

To be clear, I assume you are talking about PBR (peak) here. Is that right? Can you say what the ABRs (average) were for each?

Thanks,
Darin

Those are actually the ABRs. The PBRs are very close to max.

[Icemage]

2themax,

On a percentage scale of 0 to 100%, with 0% being no improvement in workflow efficiency and 100% being fire-and-forget with no hand tweaking, how much easier is it to encode what you typically work on for Blu-ray (~30+Mbps) versus HD DVD (~20Mbps)? I'm sure it depends on the complexity of the source material, but can you give us a rough idea?

I'm curious about how happy/unhappy the various compressionists in the industry will be over this shift..

[jorg]

hello first is there a name other then 2themax which we can adress u by?(Ino worries if not)

bt my question is how complicated is the authouring proses especialy with bd-j

and how long have u been aurthoing in bd-j were u in the feild in the begning? or with in last year or so? and what is some you think would be asome to be on a bd disc( a bd-j feature)

[PaulGo]

Thanks for the information. I did a search on Star Wars digital camera and came up with this:

http://www.eetimes.com/press_release...34&CompanyId=1

[2themax]

Originally Posted by patrick99

Well, aren't bitrates what the format war was all about, and that was pretty heated?

I can certainly think of examples where it seemed that limitations in the source had the consequence that even with bitrates in the 30's, the PQ was not as outstanding as one would have liked (Cast Away, From Hell, Day After Tomorrow). Nevertheless, I was glad to see that level of bitrates in those titles, since it made me comfortable that the PQ limitations were in the source material and not in the bitrate. When I watch a movie that seems to have slight PQ problems and the bitrate is in the 20's, I don't know whether the problem is the source or the use of an insufficient bitrate level.

I can certainly appreciate that the improvement in PQ going from an ABR of 15 to an ABR of 25 will be vastly greater than the improvement in PQ going from an ABR of 25 to an ABR of 35, but that doesn't mean that the improvement going from 25 to 35 is non-existent or not detectable, at least in some cases. If I understood your answer correctly, based on your experience, in some cases the improvement will be greater than in other cases?

Yes in some cases, the gains from the mid 20s to the mid 30s will be more noticeable. A master can be soft and in that case, the bitrate bump will be negligible. Now if you a sharp master, the bump will add a greater sense of depth to the overall picture.

I am delighted to hear about your example of increasing the bitrate on a recent project from 19 to 34. That is exactly one of the big reasons why the Warner news was so welcome.

Finally, to get in a question, do you have an offhand guess or estimate as to what percentage of the projects you work on will or do benefit in a meaningful or significant way from bitrates in the 30's rather than bitrates in the 20's?

If you think that's a question where there are so many factors that a meaningful answer is not possible, that's fine.

Once again, many, many thanks for taking the time to give us the benefit of your insights!

We've already got a series of projects that will greatly benefit from the increase in bitrate. They are well mastered and have the clarity to benefit from the increased bitrate.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by 2themax

We've already got a series of projects that will greatly benefit from the increase in bitrate. They are well mastered and have the clarity to benefit from the increased bitrate.

That is really excellent news! I am very happy to hear it. I am really looking forward to seeing those when they become available!

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Icemage

2themax,

On a percentage scale of 0 to 100%, with 0% being no improvement in workflow efficiency and 100% being fire-and-forget with no hand tweaking, how much easier is it to encode what you typically work on for Blu-ray (~30+Mbps) versus HD DVD (~20Mbps)? I'm sure it depends on the complexity of the source material, but can you give us a rough idea?

I'm curious about how happy/unhappy the various compressionists in the industry will be over this shift..

That's a hard one. I've had some tests that have been close to 100% and others that have remained the same. To answer it in a general sense, if the master is good, the increase will be maybe 50%-60% on up. Of course, the type of movie; action, drama, etc., will also play a large role in the work needed.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Unfortunately, that's a bit outside of what I deal with. The little I do know about the area would involve using a Sony CineAlta camera system. It's recorded to HD-CAM SR tape with up to RGB 4:4:4 color. It is compressed using MPEG-4 Studio Profile, but I don't know the compression ratio.

Here ya go fella and thanks for contributing your time as an Insider to this forum.

In 4:2:2 recording the compression ratio 2.7/1
In 4:4:4 recording the compression ratio is 4.2/1

HDCAM SR records 1920 x 1080 linear OR Log, in 10 bit. It does not
pre-filter any input signal, nor convert Log input signals to linear for record, or otherwise alter the Log input signal in any way. It records what you give it using intra-frame compression for progressive pictures and intra-field compression for interlace.

Hope that answers some questions.

P.S.
B.T.W. This is *the bomb* for those that shoot with the Genesis or Sony F23................
http://www.videography.com/articles/article_15349.shtml

[2themax]

Originally Posted by jorg

hello first is there a name other then 2themax which we can adress u by?(Ino worries if not)

I'd like to keep it as is so that I can speak more freely.

bt my question is how complicated is the authouring proses especialy with bd-j

HDMV authoring isn't to bad. There are quite a few similarities to SD-DVD authoring. But, there also a few quirks that you just wouldn't be able to work around without the spec.

BD-J is a whole other world. I personally enjoy the challenge. Compatibility across players has definitely been the biggest problem. It is getting better with more BD-J releases hitting the market and recommended practices being set forth by the BDA.

and how long have u been authoring in bd-j were u in the feild in the begning? or with in last year or so? and what is some you think would be asome to be on a bd disc( a bd-j feature)

I've been doing BD authoring for a little over a year and a half now.

I'd like to see more customization available to the end user. You've probably already seen some of this on Lionsgate titles, but like to see it go further.

[hollywoodguy]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Now if you a sharp master, the bump will add a greater sense of depth to the overall picture.

Thank you so much for this quote. This is what I have always found lacking in many titles that have very low ABR's, such as Alexander Revisited or Troy Director's Cut. A title like Die Hard I, which is very soft to begin with and also severely suffers from what I would call "The Eighties" still had a tremendous depth to it that I found very satifiying. On the other side of the coin you have a title like Alexander, which was very clean and also technically sharp (digital captures looked terrific, for instance), but watching it in motion was really unsatifying. At times it had a creepy video look. I wouldn't even know how to rate that as a reviewer, since it looks, in a way, "perfect," but also "wrong" at the same time. Do these impressions gel with your professional opinion?

[2themax]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Thanks for the information. I did a search on Star Wars digital camera and came up with this:

http://www.eetimes.com/press_release...34&CompanyId=1

That's what I was thinking of. I believe something similar was also used on Superman Returns.