Ask questions to BD authoring and compression insider "2themax"

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Can you expand more on what the different effects on video ABR would be?

On something as long as LOA, the ABR may jump around 1Mbps or so.

The way I've been led to believe, as long as the total audio streams total less than 8Mbps, then the 40Mbps peak is safe in all instances if we're just talking about bandwidth usage and had infinite storage capacity.

How, then, does the video ABR decrease based on the audio codec used in this example? Is it because of capacity issues (i.e. PCM 5.1 24/48 eats up a lot more space, and therefore less capacity can be allocated, making the max sustainable ABR lower?).

Is there a piece of the puzzle that I'm missing somewhere, or is the video ABR difference you mentioned above simply due to storage capacity limitation changes based on the space consumed by the audio?

Your exactly right. The raw PCM is going to take up more physical room on the disc. And since disc space is limited, the video ABR will have to suffer. However, if your audio peaks at less than 8Mbps, the video can still peak at the max of 40Mbps.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by hanser

- Since most players still take a long time to load Java menues, would it be possible to include at the beginning of Java titles a choice between the full Java menue loading and a "movie only" option which circumvents the Java with all the extras. It would be extremly helpful if you just want to watch the movie, which is mostly the case in real life. Ideally then the disc would be like a Warner BD: Logo, maybe some FBI thingy if necessary, and the movie starts without further ado.

It without a doubt can be done. It's really up to the studio to request an authoring house implement it this way.

- BD-Java titles start from the beginning after one has pressed "Stop", while other titles just resume with play. If technically possible it would be nice, that also Java titles could resume after "Stop".

It's all about coding. I'm working on this right now for future titles. If/when it's working, I will add an update here.

- I like it when the scenes menue has a scrolling band of small pictures, but it would be still better, if it would start at the scene you are just watching. E.G if I go the scenes menu in the middle of the movie, because I am looking for a scene further at the end, I nevertheless start with the first scene (at least those titles on which I tried) and have to scroll through all scenes which takes some time and work. Could the player be instructed to start at the current scene?

Starting in the current chapter in the scene selection menu shouldn't be a stretch at all to do. If a movie doesn't, it's not a limitation of the format, but just wasn't authored to do so.

- I do not know if it is only with my Sharp player, but I can´t chose chapters via the numbers on the remote. If it is a general BD thing, it would be nice to have this function.

I'm not sure on this one, but the player may include keys that are optional per spec or keys that are even outside of spec.

- User prohibitions. Is it really necessary to forbid going "next" for exemple while the menu is building up? I would be nice if this restriction would not be used any more, it is really bothersome, if you just want to watch the movie.

Some studios want the flow to happen an exact way. If they want things a certain way, the authoring house has to listen.

- When I watch extras I can´t access the menu. I have to skip forward until the extra is finished, then it reverts to the movie. It would be nice to access to the menu at all times during watching extras, so you could directly switch to another extra.

Doesn't sound like an unreasonable request and certainly something that can be done easily on the authoring side.

[hanser]

Thank you for your insights, 2themax! I linked your answer in paidgeeks thread in the hope that he might implement some ideas, I hope that´s OK.

[DaViD Boulet]

Saw this from Penton in another thread:

For the record, the post supervisor for that particular title (TFE) assumed the master for that title was superb. That was an oversight in the quality control process, plain and simple during the early days of the format.
Might I add that since then, this same post supervisor has probably done more for the home theater enthusiast than any individual I can recall, offhand. Completely unrelated to The Fifth Element issue, he got flat panels into the HD suites after having noticed that grain/noise problems were appearing on consumer LCD screens which were not visible on the pro HD CRT screens due to the nature of the CRT raster lines softening some high-frequency detail and hiding those flaws.

He also wrote an industry report to highlight this issue and he encouraged other studios and post houses to do the same.

The thought that up until this point Sony was using direct-view CRT monitors to view HD masters sends shudders up my spine. We all now how CRT is the king of contrast and color, but when it comes to detail I've never seen a CRT image outside of 9" CRT projection that came close to rendering the detail in a 1080p signal.

What the hell are the various studios using to monitor/QC their 1080p masters and compression jobs? When we see detail differences in Pan's Labyrinth from HD DVD in Europe to BD in the US (in this sad case, the HD DVD has far more detail), why??? Who's QC'ing these things and what are they watching them on to call the shots?

Is there anything going on in the industry to QC the QC process at the various studios?

[2themax]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Saw this from Penton in another thread:



The thought that up until this point Sony was using direct-view CRT monitors to view HD masters sends shudders up my spine. We all now how CRT is the king of contrast and color, but when it comes to detail I've never seen a CRT image outside of 9" CRT projection that came close to rendering the detail in a 1080p signal.

What the hell are the various studios using to monitor/QC their 1080p masters and compression jobs? When we see detail differences in Pan's Labyrinth from HD DVD in Europe to BD in the US (in this sad case, the HD DVD has far more detail), why??? Who's QC'ing these things and what are they watching them on to call the shots?

Is there anything going on in the industry to QC the QC process at the various studios?

CRTs were king in SD and it carried over to HD. Obviously it shouldn't have. Even we have Sony CRTs in the HD realm. That is planned to change though.

[WickyWoo]

What the hell are the various studios using to monitor/QC their 1080p masters and compression jobs? When we see detail differences in Pan's Labyrinth from HD DVD in Europe to BD in the US (in this sad case, the HD DVD has far more detail), why??? Who's QC'ing these things and what are they watching them on to call the shots?

It was compromised so they could fit PiP and a DTSHDMA track on it. So whoever did the disc smoothied it to make everything fit in the HD DVD limit.

I think we've all seen that's stopped with New Line's excellenet output since

[fitprod]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

It was compromised so they could fit PiP and a DTSHDMA track on it. So whoever did the disc smoothied it to make everything fit in the HD DVD limit.

I think we've all seen that's stopped with New Line's excellenet output since

There is one other possible issue, which is basically related... Wasn't the international Pan's Labryinth HD DVD one of the early THX certified disc? I know they have a more stringent process for QC and Mastering. It became irrelivant on DVD, but maybe it's time for them to kick some people's butts for the HD Media.

fitprod

[DaViD Boulet]

It was compromised so they could fit PiP and a DTSHDMA track on it. So whoever did the disc smoothied it to make everything fit in the HD DVD limit.

I think we've all seen that's stopped with New Line's excellenet output since

I thinked you mis-read my comments. The screen-caps at AVS show that the HD DVD is FAR SUPERIOR in detail compared to the compromised US Blu-ray Disc version.

Sad but true.

[WickyWoo]

There is one other possible issue, which is basically related... Wasn't the international Pan's Labryinth HD DVD one of the early THX certified disc? I know they have a more stringent process for QC and Mastering. It became irrelivant on DVD, but maybe it's time for them to kick some people's butts for the HD Media.

THX only certifies the mastering process, not the compression. This was done in the last year, it's a brand new modern master tape

The disc, like Hairspray shows all the signs of being smoothied for HD DVD. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that's what was done. The PiP HD DVD track takes 4-5mbps of the 29mbps available, and then you have to budget in everything else

Here's the European Blu-ray, with only a 640mbps dolby digital tracks, it's holding in the 30-35mbps range. By contrast the US Blu, tho I haven't seen a bitrate meter myself hovers in the high teens low 20s

[fitprod]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

THX only certifies the mastering process, not the compression. This was done in the last year, it's a brand new modern master tape

The disc, like Hairspray shows all the signs of being smoothied for HD DVD. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that's what was done

You sure about that? When I did QC on the Akira DTS DVD, they sent in a third party to double check the encode next to the master during compression.

fitprod

[DaViD Boulet]

Hairspray shows all the signs of being smoothied for HD DVD. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that's what was done

Sadly, I noticed *after* posting my review that the shots from the film in the bonus material of Hairspray are obviously more detailed than the feature film.

Can anyone confirm with New Line that they are aware of these two compromised encodes and that they intend to improve things going forward?

[WickyWoo]

Can anyone confirm with New Line that they are aware of these two compromised encodes and that they intend to improve things going forward?

Yes they know. Look at Shoot 'em up for the "apology"

New Line has always prided themselves on their outstanding DVDs. If I had to guess, they got a look at Pan's and Hairspray when they came back and said "Not good enough"

You sure about that? When I did QC on the Akira DTS DVD, they sent in a third party to double check the encode next to the master during compression.

That guy wasn't from THX. He was from an independent QC house called 3rdi hired by Pioneer

[fitprod]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

That guy wasn't from THX. He was from an independent QC house called 3rdi hired by Pioneer

Doh... That's right... I remember there was a question about the recycling of the old encode, which had already been certified...

Nevermind.

fitprod

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Sadly, I noticed *after* posting my review that the shots from the film in the bonus material of Hairspray are obviously more detailed than the feature film.

Can anyone confirm with New Line that they are aware of these two compromised encodes and that they intend to improve things going forward?

It's hard for me to understand how anyone could watch Hairspray and not realize that something is very, very wrong.

[DaViD Boulet]

It's hard for me to understand how anyone could watch Hairspray and not realize that something is very, very wrong.

Because different movies have different looks and different levels of inherent sharpness/detail in the intended print look.

I noted that the image was slightly soft in my review. My mistake was in not knowing that it wasn't congruent with how the DI should have looked (since I had no A/B source to compare against).

Think of how many HD films get wrongfully critizied for looking "too soft" only because they happen to be faithful to the source. I don't want to knee-jerk and lay blame into a studio if there's no fault and the BD is merely looking like the film is supposed to look... softness and all.

As more and more BD's get reviewed and we get more experience with how various artifacts look and don't look (like a signature from filtering that looks different than a film that's just not that detailed) things will improve. But without being able to see the original, it will always require a degree of guesswork.

[Elandyll]

Hi 2Themax (et aures Insiders)!

A New generation of AVC encoders?

Would this bring a new level in AVC encodes, or is it just "one solution among others"? I know Thomson generally makes very good products...

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080226/20080226005639.html?.v=1

BURBANK, Calif. & PARIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Thomson (Euronext Paris:18453) (NYSE:TMS - News), today announced the availability of the NexCode™ HD AVC Encoder, a next-generation encoding solution that provides compression tools to create content in Blu-ray Disc™ and other high-definition formats. The cutting-edge solution for post production is the most powerful and flexible HD AVC encoding tool available for purchase by facilities with compression and authoring services.

Thomson developed the NexCode HD AVC Encoder by incorporating numerous capabilities into one, including automatic artifact correction, novel bit rate control and re-encoding parameter pre-set configurations. The result is a fast and flexible solution that produces best-in-class video quality and is fully compliant with AVC and Blu-ray formats.

The NexCode HD AVC Encoder features a built-in video player with configurable split screen modes, which enables users to visually compare a scene before and after an encoding step. The solution’s fully adjustable re-encoding parameters allow customized scene-by-scene and frame-by-frame processing. The NexCode HD AVC Encoder is also equipped with Film Grain Technology™, which allows flexible film grain adjustments. For dual-format projects, NexCode allows a single encode to be used for the creation of both Blu-ray and HD DVD compliant bit streams.

The NexCode HD AVC Encoder benefits from Thomson-developed proprietary algorithms, which not only automatically detect and correct encoding artifacts but also preserve and improve the visual quality during ingestion. NexCode’s hardware configuration includes an encoding workstation and an optimized PC cluster architecture. The PC cluster and the storage space can be scaled to meet customer's business requirements.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Hi 2Themax (et aures Insiders)!

A New generation of AVC encoders?

Would this bring a new level in AVC encodes, or is it just "one solution among others"? I know Thomson generally makes very good products...

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080226/20080226005639.html?.v=1

It sounds just like any other AVC(or VC1) enoder on the market today other than the Film Grain Technology. I can't seem to find any good information on it though. And it looks like it also got announced last year too. Strange.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Sadly, I noticed *after* posting my review that the shots from the film in the bonus material of Hairspray are obviously more detailed than the feature film.

Can anyone confirm with New Line that they are aware of these two compromised encodes and that they intend to improve things going forward?

At the viewing distances most people are watching today (3, 4 PH, or more) if the display shows 1080 x 1920 pixels at 100% contrast the images on those discs will look good and sharp, but at larger viewing angles/closer distances they start to show the smoothing proccess. Luckily as Wicky mentioned, Shoot 'Em Up has more detail (and sharp pinpoint grain) more suitable to be seen in cinema-size viewing angles

[dialog_gvf]

2themax:

I've always been curious about the timeline of a disc release. Assuming a normal effort, what would be the steps/duration to release a title?

Gary

[2themax]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

2themax:

I've always been curious about the timeline of a disc release. Assuming a normal effort, what would be the steps/duration to release a title?

Gary

It's a hard one to answer with a single answer. A plain, boring release may only take 2-3 weeks. If things get more extravagant, it can go out to 2-3 months. I wouldn't be surprised if some titles are taking even longer when cutting edge features are added.

The steps involved are as follows(and simplified):

- Receive a master
- Find start/end times and chapter times
- Capture to file
- Run preprocessing on the captured file
- Encode - 2 passes
- Encode QC
- Encode audio
- Create menu
- Create Subtitles
- Create Closed Caption
- Author
- QC authoring
- QC full project on BD-RE
- Create mastering image
- Send to replicator
- Add AACS
- Check disc
- Replicate

Some of this can be done in parallel. Also, the above times don't include the AACS, check disc, and replication steps.