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Old 07-18-2014, 06:39 PM   #201
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Originally Posted by ronjones View Post
The executive summary has been released from last week's meeting of ITU-T SG16...
Ron, did I or Richard Paul create a ITU-T SG16 lurker?
What I mean is….to use Zoet’s terminology, is there any “documentation” of you blogging about SG16 meetings prior to being exposed to the gateway urls posted for all to see at the top of the last page, e.g. #181 and below?

I do love your postings though as you choose each word so carefully, it often reminds me of listening to a lawyer giving a deposition.

One more hurdle to overcome, is a final licensing agreement for HEVC (aka MPEG-H Part 2), expected by the end of the summer… We’ll see. Note to Blu-Dog, the determining organization for the patent pool license be MPEG LA. You can add that acronym to the menu.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:46 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Ron, did I or Richard Paul create a ITU-T SG16 lurker?
What I mean is….to use Zoet’s terminology, is there any “documentation” of you blogging about SG16 meetings prior to being exposed to the gateway urls posted for all to see at the top of the last page, e.g. #181 and below?

I do love your postings though as you choose each word so carefully, it often reminds me of listening to a lawyer giving a deposition.

One more hurdle to overcome, is a final licensing agreement for HEVC (aka MPEG-H Part 2), expected by the end of the summer… We’ll see. Note to Blu-Dog, the determining organization for the patent pool license be MPEG LA. You can add that acronym to the menu.
Actually I have been posting about the status of HEVC and the other UHD related standards for more than a year (HERE is one example). However, these early posts were not about specific ITU-T SG16 meetings. I do appreciate the specific link for SG16 provided earlier in this thread. So bottom line is I was already a ITU lurker but not for specific meeting documents from SG16 prior to our exchanges earlier this year. - Thanks
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:34 PM   #203
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....I do appreciate the specific link for SG16 provided earlier in this thread. So bottom line is I was already a ITU lurker but not for specific meeting documents from SG16 prior to our exchanges earlier this year. - Thanks
You’re welcome. In return, maybe you can direct me to the best places to fish around Ft. Meyers when I’m in the area and driving up from Naples. I’m finding golf too stressful and prolonged home theater involvement putting on too much tonnage.

Anyway, for aspiring JCTVC meeting followers, there are also some links accompanied by visual illustrations to help make a point, such as from back in 2012 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...nk#post9395872

So, in regards to the above ^… as the value of 10-bit delivery and presentation can not be overemphasized and is infrequently discussed, how do you feel about the claim of 10-bit panels by Sharp? - http://hdguru.com/q-a-with-sharp-on-...q-series-tech/

true 10-bit panels (e.g. with 10-bit column drives - http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/br...pecifications/

or, are they simulated 10-bit panels (Frame Rate Control/dither)?
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:56 AM   #204
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Actually I have been posting about the status of HEVC and the other UHD related standards for more than a year (HERE is one example). However, these early posts were not about specific ITU-T SG16 meetings...
Work done in Sapporo outside the specific ITU-T SG16 meeting included defining the requirements for support of HDR and the XYZ color space in HEVC. With regards to HDR (and although not revealed yet on the site - http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/meetings/109 ) it was agreed at the Sapporo meeting to prepare a Call for Evidence in this area in order to achieve a better understanding of the technology available….which, at the current time, consists of several delivery methodologies (Dolby, Technicolor, BBC, etc.) all showcased at a recent technology HDR workshop in Munich.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:45 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Ron, did I or Richard Paul create a ITU-T SG16 lurker?
What I mean is….to use Zoet’s terminology, is there any “documentation” of you blogging about SG16 meetings prior to being exposed to the gateway urls posted for all to see at the top of the last page, e.g. #181 and below?

I do love your postings though as you choose each word so carefully, it often reminds me of listening to a lawyer giving a deposition.

One more hurdle to overcome, is a final licensing agreement for HEVC (aka MPEG-H Part 2), expected by the end of the summer… We’ll see. Note to Blu-Dog, the determining organization for the patent pool license be MPEG LA. You can add that acronym to the menu.
I


I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.


Watching these guys hat-dance about this standard is amazing. A lawyerly type making statements about this new regime is both frightening and enlightening at the same time. I'm going to have to replace my player AND my receiver. The wife is going to get allergies from all the flowers she'll get...I'll have to send the Claritin bill to somebody.
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:26 PM   #206
Richard Paul Richard Paul is offline
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
So, in regards to the above ^… as the value of 10-bit delivery and presentation can not be overemphasized and is infrequently discussed, how do you feel about the claim of 10-bit panels by Sharp? - http://hdguru.com/q-a-with-sharp-on-...q-series-tech/

true 10-bit panels (e.g. with 10-bit column drives - http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/br...pecifications/

or, are they simulated 10-bit panels (Frame Rate Control/dither)?
It would be nice to know how much of a difference there is between the two. A lot of companies use 6-bit+FRC and say that it is almost as good as 8-bit but I have never heard of any double blind study on the subject.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:02 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
It would be nice to know how much of a difference there is between the two. A lot of companies use 6-bit+FRC and say that it is almost as good as 8-bit but I have never heard of any double blind study on the subject.
Sharp can't be the only LCD Manufacture to have native 10-bit panels?

I thought Samsung and SONY include 10-bit panels in there high end 4k sets? I know Vizio officially announced 10-bit panels with Dolby Vision for there premium 65" and 120" sets, matter a fact they where the first ones to make that claim this year at CES!
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:42 PM   #208
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Watching these guys hat-dance about this standard is amazing....
For those who remember the beginnings of the implementation of the digital intermediate process in the motion picture industry (e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ne#post9213621), I kind of wish that the driving factors for consumer UHD were the same as that for the DI in the professional realm back in the day.

For you see, back then, the strategy and technologies necessary for DI were evolving much faster than any standards organization could come up with a recommended practice or standard, so the people who were actually doing it, were essentially creating the standards which had to be accepted/adopted. In more recent times, same thing happened with Peter Jackson’s The Hobbit driving D-Cinema frame rate standards (SMPTE’s SG on High Frame Rates for 3D and 2D D-Cinema Applications). Now with that commercial drive for HFR motion pictures having now settled down, it has given standards and guideline organizations (currently AMPAS’s WG) time to catch up and set the agenda for next generation cinema. The ‘do-ers’ have taken a back seat to the ‘standard-izers’.

With regards to the HEVC licensing situation, it is not unique as the same thing happened with MPEG-2 and H.264 and in both those prior cases, it eventually was resolved. When all is said and done, at the end of the day I think HEVC will see mass adoption no slower than other video compression standards.

The licensing process may appear frustrating but negotiating with individual patent holders is not as bad as this….https://soundcloud.com/ryan-block-10/comcastic-service
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:48 PM   #209
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I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.
Could be worse, at least you weren’t ‘Murphy’ in the wilderness…. http://www.today.com/pets/scent-home...ter-1D79841739
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:53 PM   #210
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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It would be nice to know how much of a difference there is between the two. A lot of companies use 6-bit+FRC and say that it is almost as good as 8-bit but I have never heard of any double blind study on the subject.
Nor, have I, but a quick, easy way to test for *true* vs. *simulated by processing* if both types of displays were placed adjacently would be to have the observer(s) watch scenes with shading across a narrow tonal range, such as the sky. With 10-bit source, unless the frame rate control algorithm is outstanding, you’d see some artifacts in the sky (noise) as compared to the native 10-bit panel.

Of course, native 10-bit panels cost more to manufacture than simulated (8-bit plus frame rate control/dither) 10-bit displays.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:12 PM   #211
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That Murphy story - it eats me up - they got him back. Astounding. Talk about lost in the wilderness...jeez.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:23 PM   #212
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The incredible heat that Peter Jackson got over the Hobbit work (both from the industry "critics" and the public is perhaps why there's so much angst right now. We have the general public caterwauling about the "filmic" look "where's my grain?" from folks whose dream it is to crank-start a Bugatti Veyron) and critics and filmmakers who know it will be very difficult to squeeze in the usual shortcuts to film production.


It was like watching a bad guy saying, "Let's see how good you dance, tenderfoot" and acting like he was going to shoot at some poor guy's feet, and aiming at his head, instead. No wonder the guys that set standards are nervous wrecks.


If you go to these conferences, how do you know when to leave before they start throwing chairs? I wouldn't even want to look through the window, somebody will get thrown through it as soon as he says, "Let's not wait for the next generation, let's do it now, while we still have the muscle," and they start waterboarding the engineers.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:53 PM   #213
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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The incredible heat that Peter Jackson got over the Hobbit work (both from the industry "critics" and the public is perhaps why there's so much angst right now. We have the general public caterwauling about the "filmic" look...
Well, I’m not too excited about > 24fps for dramatic motion pictures because over the years I’ve become conditioned to motion blur like Pavlov’s dog and this old dog finds it difficult to learn some new tricks for watching movies (embrace frame rates higher than the decades long traditional rate)….for movies, that is. Perhaps given enough time, I can change and who knows if future generations will be as inflexibly conditioned as I am towards changing the aesthetic look of traditional frame rate movies.

On the other hand, I’m big on HFR (100fps and above) for things like sports (or any ‘first person’ type material) because the visual gain in clarity with the ‘extra’ temporal resolution when the camera pans or the players and objects move, is enviable.

The point I was trying to make is we need more ‘do-ers’ pushing the ‘standard-izers’, like Douglas Trumbull’s recent project UFOTOG


Not just for movies but with things like sports, etc. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ghcm9 ..... http://www.sbjtvd.org.br/2010/anais/..._3d_system.pdf )

P.S.
For those that don’t understand Douglas T.’s comment that it’s actually easier for post production houses to composite at 120 fps rather than 24fps….despite the extraordinary amount of additional data with the former, skip to about the 16-19 min. timestamp of a presentation from a past Siggraph, for the explanation - http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/36311377
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:59 PM   #214
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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HFR discussion reminds me, as a follow-up to this news breaking post from Dec. 2013 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...00#post8536132

See the pdf posted on July 15 from a presentation by Yvonne last March - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...de#post9448486 - which I like to refer to as her fish presentation (parrot, butterfly, striped butterfly, etc.), anyway, instead of the Conclusion, just scroll down to the ‘Process’ (on page 22) and to the right of dem 3 pretty colored circles you’ll see in tiny print that 100 Hz (fps) just has to be formally written into the Rec. These things take some time.

Last edited by Penton-Man; 07-23-2014 at 07:02 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:05 AM   #215
Richard Paul Richard Paul is offline
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
HFR discussion reminds me, as a follow-up to this news breaking post from Dec. 2013 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...00#post8536132

See the pdf posted on July 15 from a presentation by Yvonne last March - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...de#post9448486 - which I like to refer to as her fish presentation (parrot, butterfly, striped butterfly, etc.), anyway, instead of the Conclusion, just scroll down to the ‘Process’ (on page 22) and to the right of dem 3 pretty colored circles you’ll see in tiny print that 100 Hz (fps) just has to be formally written into the Rec. These things take some time.
I have to hand it to the studios that who ever they have advocating for the DCI P3 color space seems to be doing a good job of convincing people that it would be good enough. Which is unfortunate since several display technologies (laser projection, LCD, and OLED) are capable of showing over 90% of the Rec. 2020 color space. While DCI P3 would be an improvement I would be disappointed if UHDTV gets stuck with a color space that was developed for Xenon lamps. Also I checked the ITU website and the UHDTV standard was updated a few days ago with the new frame rates.
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:30 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
^ Posted to the public on the ITU site…..drum roll…on July 17, 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
I have to hand it to the studios that who ever they have advocating for the DCI P3 color space seems to be doing a good job of convincing people that it would be good enough. Which is unfortunate since ...
B.T. 2020 color space is a noble, but tough pill to swallow given the infrastructure for P3. Had I been down in San Diego at the time, I would have liked to have personally seen this display at SID….http://www.nanosysinc.com/press-rele...-lcd-tvmonitor

Last edited by Penton-Man; 07-25-2014 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Add the word ‘on’
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:35 PM   #217
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So bottom line is I was already a ITU lurker...
Then, to be even more ITU comprehensive, see – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...de#post9489764
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:03 PM   #218
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I would have liked to have personally seen this display...
Not for any serious/reference viewing of 4K material mind you, more for what it can do in terms of color….perhaps, nice new accessory toy for the office at home.
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Old 07-27-2014, 10:07 PM   #219
Richard Paul Richard Paul is offline
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
B.T. 2020 color space is a noble, but tough pill to swallow given the infrastructure for P3.
DCI P3 getting chosen for UHDTV would be a victory for the studios, since they wouldn't have to upgrade their equipment, but in my opinion it would be a defeat for consumers since the color space chosen for UHDTV will be used for decades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Had I been down in San Diego at the time, I would have liked to have personally seen this display at SID….http://www.nanosysinc.com/press-rele...-lcd-tvmonitor
The LCD display that Nanosys showed at SID could show 91% of the Rec. 2020 color space and if it had better color filters it could have shown 97%.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:41 AM   #220
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...The LCD display that Nanosys showed at SID could show 91% of the Rec. 2020 color space and if it had better color filters it could have shown 97%.
I knew it was high, but didn’t know it was that high! Public claim at SID or insider knowledge?
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