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Old 10-30-2020, 06:09 AM   #21
BillieCassin BillieCassin is offline
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Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity View Post
That's absolutely not true. Approximately 28% of Xbox 360 games and 4% of original Xbox games are playable on Xbox One and Xbox Series X. You think the rest of them are unplayable strictly because of licensing agreements?
Yes, because they all have identical developer agreements - with MS.

You are confusing two things, MS's own licensing agreements with developers who publish on their system and individual developers licensing agreements for IP based games.

MS cannot just put any game it wants into backward compatibility. Their own agreements with publishers were console exclusive in the 360 generation. Each new XBOX 360 title that gets backward comparability on a new console must have a new contract renegotiated with the original publishers (or the current owner, whatever is applicable).

That is the main hurdle. The entity needs to still exist in some form, and be willing to work with MS - and it needs to make business sense for everyone.

Now, some titles are further locked by individual publishers and their licensing agreements with rights holders (for licensed properties that have long expired), which is what I believe you think I was referring to.

In any case, you aren't wrong that there are a lot of complexities involved in emulation - but that has little to do with why the list of compatible games is as limited as it is. MS simply doesn't have the legal right to do so.

If you think about it, it's pretty obvious when you look at the list. I mean, do you think that LucasArts just happened to make games that were especially easy to emulate? No, they (or Disney, whenever the agreement was made) just signed a contract for a large part of their library.

My understanding is that the developer agreement isn't an issue for the original XBOX games - which is why many more of them were backwards compat for 360. It just isn't worth it for them if the game can't go for sale digitally (and provide fodder for monthly free games, which is one reason they make the effort to get these titles to begin with), not that somehow 96% of them are too hard to emulate (even though the 360 could a good many of them).

All that said - I'm so pleased with MS that they have gone in the opposite direction for the XBOX One generation on. That's why they have my loyalty now - and why I am spending $500 on a new XBOX in a few weeks.
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:42 PM   #22
JayTL JayTL is offline
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I believe going forward Microsoft is going to redo their licensing to be "future-proof"

Last edited by JayTL; 10-30-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:48 PM   #23
GuruAskew GuruAskew is offline
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They shouldn’t have to. They can make consoles that play the old games, they don’t need a publisher’s approval to make a device that plays a game that played on one of their past consoles. The idea that they need to go to EA or Activision to get permission to manufacture a device that plays Xbox or 360 games is a hilarious myth. Again, the real issue is wasting money and resources on games that can’t be monetized, and angering their partners with backwards compatible titles that compete with re-releases.

The only difference between Xbox One -> Xbox Series and previous gens is that the Series models were designed to play the previous-gen games from the ground up. If the 360 was a super-charged Xbox they would have been able to have the 100% BC program. If the One was a super-charged 360 they would have been able to have the 100% BC program. They clearly didn’t have to go to an entire generation’s worth of publishers and developers to clear thousands of games this time around, so that’s not what’s stopping them from having complete Xbox and 360 BC programs. It’s the fact that every single title needs to be fine tuned for emulation, and doing that on a game that isn’t for sale does not make financial sense.
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:21 PM   #24
BillieCassin BillieCassin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuruAskew View Post
They clearly didn’t have to go to an entire generation’s worth of publishers and developers to clear thousands of games this time around, so that’s not what’s stopping them from having complete Xbox and 360 BC programs.
There is a contractual limitation that is due to the specific developer agreement for the 360 generation, specifying that the agreement was exclusive to 360 hardware. They didn't have to clear games this time around because they revised the new developer agreement for XBOX One generation.

I agree on your other points, however.
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Old 10-30-2020, 08:52 PM   #25
JayTL JayTL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuruAskew View Post
They shouldn’t have to. They can make consoles that play the old games, they don’t need a publisher’s approval to make a device that plays a game that played on one of their past consoles. The idea that they need to go to EA or Activision to get permission to manufacture a device that plays Xbox or 360 games is a hilarious myth. Again, the real issue is wasting money and resources on games that can’t be monetized, and angering their partners with backwards compatible titles that compete with re-releases.

The only difference between Xbox One -> Xbox Series and previous gens is that the Series models were designed to play the previous-gen games from the ground up. If the 360 was a super-charged Xbox they would have been able to have the 100% BC program. If the One was a super-charged 360 they would have been able to have the 100% BC program. They clearly didn’t have to go to an entire generation’s worth of publishers and developers to clear thousands of games this time around, so that’s not what’s stopping them from having complete Xbox and 360 BC programs. It’s the fact that every single title needs to be fine tuned for emulation, and doing that on a game that isn’t for sale does not make financial sense.
That's just factually incorrect at this point.
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Old 10-31-2020, 02:49 AM   #26
PenguinInfinity PenguinInfinity is offline
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That's just factually incorrect at this point.
That depends on what is being played. No company would need publisher approval if they created a console that played old games using the files on the disc. But they do need publisher approval to play a new version of the game, which is unfortunately what Xbox One and Xbox Series X are doing with Xbox 360 and original Xbox games. When you insert an Xbox 360 or original Xbox disc the console downloads an Xbox One version of the game and only uses the disc as an authorization key.
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity View Post
That depends on what is being played. No company would need publisher approval if they created a console that played old games using the files on the disc. But they do need publisher approval to play a new version of the game, which is unfortunately what Xbox One and Xbox Series X are doing with Xbox 360 and original Xbox games. When you insert an Xbox 360 or original Xbox disc the console downloads an Xbox One version of the game and only uses the disc as an authorization key.
Indeed.

So I wouldn’t dwell to much on this since you do not use your consoles online.
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:54 AM   #28
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Anyone heard anything of when Microsoft starts adding new 360 games to BC list again?
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Old 10-31-2020, 11:14 PM   #29
GuruAskew GuruAskew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity View Post
That depends on what is being played. No company would need publisher approval if they created a console that played old games using the files on the disc. But they do need publisher approval to play a new version of the game, which is unfortunately what Xbox One and Xbox Series X are doing with Xbox 360 and original Xbox games. When you insert an Xbox 360 or original Xbox disc the console downloads an Xbox One version of the game and only uses the disc as an authorization key.
They apparently don’t though. It wasn’t Ubisoft’s permission to give when Peter Jackson’s King Kong was released, and there are tons of delisted titles that continue to function via downloads after the delisting. They didn’t need to get publisher permission in the 360 days when a system update allowed the entire library to be installed to the library and played using the disc as a key code in the same way the current BC program works.

The fact that Microsoft says these things are required? That is not in dispute. I’ve seen those statements. The disputable part is whether they’re being honest, or whether the official statement makes more sense than what I’ve been saying. That 360 hard drive update was a logistical nightmare and tons of publishers and developers had to come out and say that their games work better when played off of a disc and shouldn’t be installed on the hard drive. That proved that the one-size-fits-all approach was not feasible, which in turn progresses into a program in which games are selected on a case-by-case basis, and then naturally you get into a situation in which games that can be sold on their marketplace are given priority over games that generate absolutely no income. And it’s all thanks to Kong, a game quietly released, lumped in with a large group of titles at the very end of the BC program, that we can reasonably assume that they could probably have a lot more sunk-cost games in the program if they truly wanted to.
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Old 11-01-2020, 01:57 AM   #30
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Does Ace Combat 6 work as BC w/ the disc or only if you redeemed the code that came w/ the AC7 pre-order? It seems like there is nothing stopping them from selling it on the marketplace other than making it special for those who pre-ordered.
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Old 11-01-2020, 01:35 AM   #31
PenguinInfinity PenguinInfinity is offline
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They didn’t need to get publisher permission in the 360 days when a system update allowed the entire library to be installed to the library and played using the disc as a key code in the same way the current BC program works.
When you install a game to an Xbox 360 all of the files are copied off of the disc. When you install an Xbox 360 game to an Xbox One or Xbox Series X a new version of the game is downloaded off the internet, none of the files on the disc are used at all. They are completely different situations.

Last edited by PenguinInfinity; 11-01-2020 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 11-02-2020, 07:25 PM   #32
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Anyone heard anything of when Microsoft starts adding new 360 games to BC list again?
They said back in June of 2019 the program has ended. So I don't think they are adding anymore. Unless there was news I didn't hear about.
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Old 11-02-2020, 07:42 PM   #33
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They said back in June of 2019 the program has ended. So I don't think they are adding anymore. Unless there was news I didn't hear about.
I remember them saying they was putting it on hold to focus one the Series X.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:59 PM   #34
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I’ve only played a few games so far but I will say the frame rate issues I used to notice seem to be cleared up just like all the reviews have stated. HDR is kind of dark, I remember hearing ppl mentioning that for XOX but I never experienced it until now.

I want to call out Bloodstained though. I think the game is fun, buts it’s a bit broken, and it seems load times got progressively worse as it received updates (though that could be my Xbox I suppose). It’s so much better now.

Oddly, Shantae still has loading screens, but it’s that cute animation of her dancing so I actually don’t really mind.

Really want to play Valhalla next! What do you think, Ubi will have it 50% off by Black Friday/cyber Monday?
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Old 11-11-2020, 10:23 PM   #35
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Can the Xbox Series X run Skylanders (remember that?!)
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:25 PM   #36
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Skylanders has a Series X|S graphic on the purchase page, so I guess that's a yes.
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