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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > 3D > 3D Hardware and Technology

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Old 01-13-2021, 02:38 PM   #21
Lee A Stewart Lee A Stewart is offline
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It's essential. Without it, your 3D is going to look like this:

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Old 01-15-2021, 12:08 AM   #22
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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How would you get a double image if the timing is right on an external syncer is proper and correct?

That looks like a Polarized Passive double exposure.

The only way you could have an active shutter-based double exposure is either mis-timing or something mechanically wrong with the eyeglasses.

the only reason you get double exposure in a pause is so you could stare at the paused picture in 3D accurately. otherwise if you are watching a video that was meant to be watched with shutter 3D you'd get the Wang Chung/ Max Headroom effect. Alternating discontinuous frames.

if the only thing preventing a universal shutter 3D add on working according to Lee's theory (not saying it's either true ot false) is a backlight, I don't know how that is disqualifying, since modern technology takes a less intense, more broadly spread, constant (strobing?) white light vs CRTs, and changes pigments every so often all at once, then wouldn't all modern TVs qualify as backlit? Isn't that true of all subtractive color TV (starts at white shaded by pigments?) as opposed to additive color technologies, (start at black, add different intensities of 3 component color lights and make their duration lomg enough to perceive, both short enough to refresh by next frame?) Have a backlight?
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Old 01-15-2021, 12:16 AM   #23
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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Hold on. We got an Anaglyph technology, a shutter technology, and an OLED polar technology all being discussed at once. It's hard to tell who is responding to who.
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Old 01-15-2021, 12:50 AM   #24
Lee A Stewart Lee A Stewart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart View Post
It's essential. Without it, your 3D is going to look like this:

This is not double exposure. It is one of the cons of active shutter glasses: ghosting.
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:11 AM   #25
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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First Lee, I assume you're talking to me about a universal Shutter TV adapters. Others are talking about universal Anaglyph adapters, and still others are talking about universal OLED polar light adapters.

You said brightness is the cure for Active Ghosting. (By ghosting, I assume you mean that black shadow of a double exposure, because most modern technologies are subtractive (start at white and darken along cyan yellow and magenta axises)

I thought the only issue is timing.

If there is black ghosting, and LCD is a subtractive technology, then wouldn't a shutter technology on a additive display (like a CRT TV) have "white ghosting" by that logic?

By the way is ghosting only the effect or result of mistimed shutters? I understand that's an issue with a universal Shutter adapter.... You have to "tune it" to the correct delay.

My idea has a frame start reader and a signal writer in the audio as a code when the screen is presented and a code reader in the audio output, then shouldn't it be automatically tuned to automatically be tuned to the proper tv delay?

Also if wired by 3.5mm cables, then shouldn't it be close to ib
nstant. And you can Y split 3.5 mm cables as long as there is enough power to read the signal.

Analog FM radio is a delay-free signal transmitter.

3.5mm removes necessity for batteries Obut does keep you tethered). It could in theory be powered by a NiMH AAA battery and combined with headphones for post decoded 2 track 360x360 surround sound.
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:36 AM   #26
Lee A Stewart Lee A Stewart is offline
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Ghosting, otherwise known as Crosstalk is inherent in active shutter LCD 3D TVs due to the technology's Latency: Lag Time - the difference between the time there is a signal input, and the time it takes the input to display on the screen. It is something that can't be overcome. That's why they moved to polarized 3D instead.
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:10 AM   #27
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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Okay, it's caused by lag time.

So what you're saying is that if a device could correctly compensate for lag then the shutter effect should work.

If a chip had a signal indicating when the frame start signal enters the TV meaning time when signal is generated, and could sense when that same signal is exiting that TV, the time it's being displayed, that it should just work as well as a CRT TV with constant sub-microsecond ping time.

Hey Lee, did you read how I proposed to compensate for ping time in a way that's fairly automatic? Use an HDMI input dongle, and a sound output dongle (either HDMI ARC, Toslink, Coaxial, RCA LR, or 3.5mm) to detect the same thing before and after. And sync up the glasses with the after.

Have a compensated for paying correctly in a guaranteed way?

This would also be a cool way to make an auto ping test machine for tv displays.
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:36 AM   #28
Lee A Stewart Lee A Stewart is offline
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The best solution is not to use an LCD TV. Use an OLED TV which has no latency. But it's all a moot point as no one is going to make a 3D adapter that will turn a current OLED into a 3D OLED.

The best solution is get a DLP 3D ready projector. Crosstalk is not an issue with DLP technology.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel tripletopper.
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Old 01-15-2021, 10:15 PM   #29
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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But the Ol





I'm trying to make a 3D adapter that doesn't violate manufacturer warrantee, and be as simple as adding Dolby/DTS surround is.

Any TV, any display tech (CRT, LCD, OLED, Plasma, DLP), any size, any natural aspect ratio, any resolution, any hertz rate, any color depth bittage, any brand.

Just sense a signal pre-display, a signal post display and the computer will time it.

This could be a "Billy Mays and Sully Special", especially if it's unicersal brandwise.

I understand unless you compensate for sync right it will ghost. I understand it's shutter.

A Sony TV rep says they have a "universal assuming 2015- active 3d adapter.". It does what I say, but uses 2 way communications in HDMI. I assume in 2015 the HDMI counsil added tv output tine sensing/ping measuring in the HDMI standard and works off that.

Also Sony makes a universal OLED Polar 3D adapter.

Give me a half hour and I'll tell you if I see info or not.

By the way, they said there is no 2D compatible 3D, but liked my "30Hz x 2 eye with other eye encoded" suggestion to be bandwidth neutral while doing 3D. He said no TV shows are in 3D yet, mainly because of 3D hatred that popped up in the fall of 2011.

Some are shy about 3D. A few embrace it.

Be back in an hour or less.
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Old 01-16-2021, 03:59 PM   #30
Lee A Stewart Lee A Stewart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripletopper View Post
I'm trying to make a 3D adapter that doesn't violate manufacturer warrantee, and be as simple as adding Dolby/DTS surround is.
Adding those audio formats means adding equipment: receiver, speakers or a sound bar.

What you are trying to do is akin to adding them to a current TV using the TV's speakers only which isn't going to work.

It's like comparing Anaglyph 3D to Frame Packing 3D. The former pales in comparison to the latter.

Quote:
Any TV, any display tech (CRT, LCD, OLED, Plasma, DLP), any size, any natural aspect ratio, any resolution, any hertz rate, any color depth bittage, any brand..
IMO . . . you are spinning your wheels and will accomplish nothing. Just do like the rest of the 3D lovers do: buy a 3D ready projector or hope 3D gets some kind of rebirth in the future. The problem is, it will have to be glasses free and will probably be expensive. It can't be based on a lenticular or parallax display because that only works for one or two seating positions.
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Old 01-16-2021, 06:09 PM   #31
MattmanAlpha MattmanAlpha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripletopper View Post
Also Sony makes a universal OLED Polar 3D adapter.
Wait . . . Sony makes a universal OLED Polar 3D adapter? I've been scouring DuckDuckGo and can't find any record of this. Do you have a link?
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Old 01-16-2021, 06:09 PM   #32
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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But most TVs from like 1990 onward have some sort of audio output,which is usually synced up with the video output which, if not a CRT TV, is going to be a few microseconds later than what comes into the TV.

Lee you admitted that the only thing you have to do correctly is compensate for timing for a universal shutter-based 3D to work.

I've seen cheap TVs in the 2000s have audio outputs even a headphone output would work as long as it's in sync and it's stereo.

the reason why there's so many different options is because different TVs have different ways of dealing with audio out but very few TVs offer video out

Even if you don't plan to use the audio out for the purposes of using sound equipment it would still be useful for measuring the delay between the input and the output.
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Old 01-17-2021, 02:26 AM   #33
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattmanAlpha View Post
Wait . . . Sony makes a universal OLED Polar 3D adapter? I've been scouring DuckDuckGo and can't find any record of this. Do you have a link?
At least that's what the "Sony representative" told me at a number that's on a Sony website. I don't know if that person is a third party dealer or not.

As for the OLED polar adapter isn't that what other guys were talking about earlier we had conversations going on about three different types of adapters, add on blue and yellow anaglyph, add on universal shutter, and an add-on chip that will polarize the lights in an OLED and properly deal with 3D pictures.

the Sega Master System proved there could be such a thing as universal shutter glasses. someone could harness that and make Universal CRT shutter glasses. I think some computerized 3D add-on systems utilize the fact that you have a CRT or have communication with a non-crt TV with the lines of traffic in the VGA to sync up the 3D correctly and they use a shutter system. if it could talk to the 3D Blu-ray and/or any 3D broadcast cablecast satellitecast or Internetcasts, if you have a standard shutter base 3D conversion chip which converts any form of 3D into alternate frames, and if it can somehow receive cues of when left and right eyes occur relative to the video being shown on the screen, then the rest is probably cake technically. The main obstacle according to Lee and me is timing. if one could time the left and right perfectly then, in my theory, that should be no problem in making Universal shutter glasses from any TV that has an audio output that's either not being used or can have a dongle put on.

I have no idea how you polarize light so it's just so much a surprise to me as it is to you guys.

I've seen actual pictures of scenes done by the video wizard which converts 3D video into blue and yellow Anaglyph.

What seems easier? A chip that could convert two scenes into an anaglyph, or something that could read and encoded timing signal?

I know you could pass signals on through audio, because Dolby Pro Logic passes two hidden signals encoded among two analog signals. So it could in theory pass timing signals through the audio path.

Assuming this method can accurately tell when the left and right I occur, and it's perfect enough where there's no ghosting, is there something else I need to know, other than timing issues, that I have to deal with?

if no, then this is probably the easiest way to turn literally every TV that isn't a 3D TV (that has some form of audio out) into a 3D TV. How many people would like to watch the 3D movies on a CRT TV? It's probably some people remember LaserDisc could say that would be a cool idea.

If my idea syncs the shutters with the video signal coming out the TV, then unless there's some other reason besides timing that would cause bad 3D TVs, then this is probably the easiest path to assure 3D will live on.

Recently when I was investigating my Virtual Boy anaglyph merger, some of the pins used in VGA are communication from the monitor back to the computer. That's why you could add 3D to any computer if it's properly synced with the TV.
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Old 02-05-2021, 05:46 PM   #34
JackFoley007 JackFoley007 is offline
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tripletopper - Legit ask here: If given the appropriate resources to develop a prototype, do you have the practical knowledge and skills to at least attempt to prove out your theory? Because I for one would invest. I have an LG OLED and missed out on the availability of the last round of LG 4K OLED's that included 3D.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:14 PM   #35
Joe D. Joe D. is offline
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Though it is no longer manufactured, many know I have been very satisfied with the 3D Video Wizard. It got it's share of negative reviews on Amazon but as many noted, along with myself, it requires monitor user settings tweaking to bring out the 3D with good color, detail and depth. So I have it going through a separate user mode so not to mess up my properly callibrated video settings.

A few years ago I was able to get an unused one still in the original shrink wrap for $40.. Used ones still come on the market at times. This again is not for my main home theater system but the one in my den which only had a standard HD monitor. Compared to my actual 3D monitor would rate it almost 8 out of ten, considering it is a plug and play anaglyphic add on.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ie=UTF8&me=&m=
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Old 02-06-2021, 05:17 AM   #36
tripletopper tripletopper is offline
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Well considering the fact that shutter based 3D is an expired patent, and concern the fact I'm only suggesting a general strategy, and considering the fact that I'm poor enough where if I get money I actually lose out in insurance benefits, consider this my contribution to the 3D preservation cause.

I don't know exactly how it's done, so I can't help build one or test one. But I do see how something could be used in another way.

So the general strategy would be to get the Blu-ray disc or Internet / broadcast/cable/satellite show to convey a start of image signal. If you know how to read a start of image signal on a normal HDMI stream when the frame starts its first image and every frame after that, then at that point you got to imbed a new signal that does not affect the audio or video of the signal to the display, but to be read by a device on the audio output whether it be L R RCA, 3.5 mm, Toslink, coaxial, or HDMI ARC, somehow be able to read that signal, set the timing to the shutter glasses based on that signal, then you got yourself a universal shutter glasses that can compensate for display ping.

I would like to personally use it myself on a CRT VGA monitor which doesn't have an audio out but luckily has no ping.

Just give me proper credit and a copy of the device if it works after you've sold enough to make a decent profit, and if it does repopularize 3D by having people literally buy any 2D TV and adding depth to it like the Dolby stereo model, then they'd be the perfect way for 3D survive. No 3D stink for those 3D haters to smell. but if 3D is ambrosia to you add it to whatever TV that doesn't have it and you got it.

Of course the easiest way to do it is timing using shutter glasses.

see the old companies wanted to sell the whole experience as one instead of portion It off.

The old glasses style were not patent protected in 2010 because they made it in 1982, and it said it only worked for CRT TVs.

The TV companies overplayed their hand, you may have just bought a TV for the conversion from analog to digital because of the 2009 finally-firm deadline that was finally achieved by the government subsidizing the adapter boxes. dad bought a TV in 2008 got it replaced with a new TV in 2009 the first year Sony had the 120 hertz, one year for 3D, and dad was not going to throw out a perfectly good TV just to add 3D.

that's like the stupidest strategic move talk about update for the new Force digital conversion and then 2 years or less later advertise new 3D you have to buy a new TV to get when an add-on could have been gotten if people would have thought outside the box like me.

By the way I sent my invention to Bulbhead, you know the people who make weird "as seen on TV" things but doesn't own the name "as seen on TV", or is affiliated with Billy Mays and Sully.

Now of course I haven't committed to selling it and as I said I'm in a position where if I make more than a month's salary in a month from outside sources, I risk losing my Social Security medical benefits and for an Autistic guy like myself, would be the worst half of a beneficial trade. So I give it for free, this general strategy idea, someone who agrees with it and thinks they can do could actually develop the technology, they beat the awards, and even if no one in the company officially knowledges me I understand the Blu-ray.com forums show that I was the one who proposed this crazy idea of a universal shutter 3D adapter just by sending an invisible timing through the audio track to get the timing right for the left and right frame.

Hopefully I'll be a billion dollar industry and it would be a mere pittance to whoever develops this to give me enough money to significantly increase my lifestyle where I could live without fear of losing medical insurance, (part time for never working much above minimum wage would be a pittance, would not be much to the person who did the rest of the work.)

And it's risk free in terms of cost. But only develop a device based on my strategy if you think my strategy makes sense. If it doesn't try something else.

I do know such things exist though I don't know how to create them myself. but I see how applying one technology helps in the sense of another.

Go ahead go nuts see if I care. As a matter of fact I'm hoping you succeed with this because I would personally buy this with my own money if it's as cheap as I think it's going to be compared to dedicated 3D systems, and I do want it even if I get zero credit and $0 for it. Not only am I the spark of the inspiration, I'm also a client.
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Old 02-06-2021, 04:21 PM   #37
grazina31 grazina31 is offline
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This device to me is a no no, they have a disclaimer that it is not supported on LCD TVs.
I believe the incompatibility you mention only concerns older LCD tvs.
My Sony X900H has a 120hz native panel, so I think it should be compatible with this. But with would be nice to be able to find some actual product reviews with current LCD tvs to see if the tech is comparable to tvs that had native 3D embeded in the hardware.
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