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Old 11-27-2022, 06:11 PM   #21
notops notops is offline
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I go agnostic on it. I use 60fps with 3:2 pulldown in an attempt to tame the extreme stutter on my OLED. But I use 24p for my projector.
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Old 11-28-2022, 01:03 AM   #22
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Is 120 Hz fast enough that matching the framerate is still highly recommended? I mean, do all the duplicate frames in the 1/24th to 1/29th (TV) of a second very nearly get it there? Asking because graphics cards and media players suck at switching to odd framerates. A lot of the time, I lose the picture completely and have to reload the display profile or switch to my monitor and back to the TV. It's a minority of content that I still have to watch on my PC. Would be nice to just use 120 Hz all the time on that HDMI channel.

Last edited by Warm Gun; 11-28-2022 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:54 AM   #23
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Getting a slight chuckle out of seeing this thread resurrected, as I've actually gotten used to 24p in the years since I made this post. It now looks entirely natural to me.
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:19 PM   #24
oddbox83 oddbox83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Gun View Post
Is 120 Hz fast enough that matching the framerate is still highly recommended? I mean, do all the duplicate frames in the 1/24th to 1/29th (TV) of a second very nearly get it there? Asking because graphics cards and media players suck at switching to odd framerates. A lot of the time, I lose the picture completely and have to reload the display profile or switch to my monitor and back to the TV. It's a minority of content that I still have to watch on my PC. Would be nice to just use 120 Hz all the time on that HDMI channel.
Not totally sure what you mean, but without BFI or any motion interpolation, on a 120hz display such as an OLED, for 24p it's a straight 5:5 pulldown with each frame displayed as if it were 24hz anyway due to no flicker between the frames. This is why we get the OLED stutter many are sensitive too. It wasn't such an issue with LCD/LED due to the slower response time creating a slight motion blur to hide it. Plasma flickered at high hertz up to 600hz on the top end models, which is barely perceivable flicker and why many say plasma motion is still unmatched in TVs.

Do you mean when changing sources with different framerates your TV loses the picture? It's normal to get a second or two of black video as the HDMI handshake resyncs, but it should come back on it's own. If you have to switch inputs to get it to resync, something isn't playing nice somewhere in your HDMI chain.

HDMI 2.1 adds Variable Refresh Rate support for gaming. So the actual framerate there can vary seamlessly.
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Old 11-29-2022, 03:49 PM   #25
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Plasma redraws every frame 10 times a second to make up that 600Hz figure (as 60Hz x 10 = 600), due to that sub-field drive it can't keep the pixels constantly lit like OLED and so that constant reflash of the image has the effect on the eye of refreshing temporal resolution, not unlike how the shutter in theatrical projektion flashes each frame twice or thrice. As you say, OLED keeps everything lit from one frame to the next (sample and hold) and so there's nowhere for the judder to hide, whereas LCD's slower pixel response helps to blur the frames a wee bit (but that can cause an unwelcome 'soap opera' look of its own).

Can't say I have major problems with either OLED or LCD motion but then I've been watching flat panel TVs at home for 15 years or more, and while I liked plasma I'd always see the sub-field drive flickering if I moved my eyeses from side to side, kinda like a 'rainbow' effect.
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Old 11-29-2022, 04:11 PM   #26
oddbox83 oddbox83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Can't say I have major problems with either OLED or LCD motion but then I've been watching flat panel TVs at home for 15 years or more, and while I liked plasma I'd always see the sub-field drive flickering if I moved my eyeses from side to side, kinda like a 'rainbow' effect.
We've been here before and yeah, I could see the "rainbow" effect too with plasma, so I never had one.

This frame stutter only became an issue for me with OLED and dependant on the 24p source - I assume there's a link here between the sample-and-hold display and the shutter speed the content was shot with. With my B8 there was nothing I was happy with to reduce it as it all introduced things far worse IMO, but my A95K seems significantly better, and with motion smoothness set to "1" it's pretty much eliminating any stutter while still retaining a filmic motion look without notable motion estimation yuckies. I don't know quite what Sony's motion processing is doing on this setting, but I've a theory it's upping to a more conservative 30p so as not to step into "soap opera" territory and intead of 3:2 pulldown, it's interpolating those extra frames and then adding 4:4 pulldown for display.

Last edited by oddbox83; 11-29-2022 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 11-30-2022, 09:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddbox83 View Post
Not totally sure what you mean, but without BFI or any motion interpolation, on a 120hz display such as an OLED, for 24p it's a straight 5:5 pulldown with each frame displayed as if it were 24hz anyway due to no flicker between the frames. This is why we get the OLED stutter many are sensitive too. It wasn't such an issue with LCD/LED due to the slower response time creating a slight motion blur to hide it. Plasma flickered at high hertz up to 600hz on the top end models, which is barely perceivable flicker and why many say plasma motion is still unmatched in TVs.
I meant everything from 23.976 to 29.7 played with constant 120 Hz. I didn't follow how your second sentence there related to the first, that OLED stutter.

Quote:
Do you mean when changing sources with different framerates your TV loses the picture? It's normal to get a second or two of black video as the HDMI handshake resyncs, but it should come back on it's own. If you have to switch inputs to get it to resync, something isn't playing nice somewhere in your HDMI chain.
Experimenting further, I can switch framerates around okay when I do it in the Windows Display settings. Automatically trying to force a video framerate onto the desktop from the media player is what often causes the picture to disappear or glitch out in streaks of wild, frozen colors. As did doing it through the Nvidia Control Panel before I switched to AMD.

Quote:
HDMI 2.1 adds Variable Refresh Rate support for gaming. So the actual framerate there can vary seamlessly.
I can never enable AMD FreeSync in the GPU control panel. The HDMI channel on the TV is set to VRR and it's an 8K-branded cable that has let me use everything up to 120 Hz 4K 4:4:4 RGB. Lots of complaints about it from AMD users online.
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Old 11-30-2022, 10:04 PM   #28
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https://community.amd.com/t5/driver....highlight/true

Quote:
Wahey! I decided to try again with EDID spoofing, and had more success this time.

Download Custom Resolution Utility by ToastyX and run it.


Select your TV from the list.
Click the CTA-861 extension block.
Click the HDMI 2.1 support data block.
Click edit.
Take note of the listed VRR range.
Click cancel.
Add a new "Freesync range" data block.
Set the correct VRR range from the previous step.
Click ok.
Unplug and plug in the HDMI cable to the TV.

For me, this did enable VRR. Unfortunately on the A90J it's 48Hz, which is a pretty high threshold, so in the most demanding test I ran (RE8 with raytracing) there was still some tearing in very specific spots (like, you are looking at this room from such and such an angle and I guess that causes the framerate to dip just below the threshold). It might be possible to force a lower threshold and not totally break, I haven't tried that yet. I know it doesn't go down to 20-25 for my TV, because that was what I had tried originally.

And to be clear, I really really shouldn't need to do this whole dance to make it work -_-
I tried this. It worked without the DisplayPort adapter. Which sucks, because my AV receiver can't pass through 120 Hz 4K 10-bit. With only one HDMI on the graphics card, I need that DP adapter.
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Old 12-01-2022, 04:43 AM   #29
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It definitely looks a little better now but going the 3:2 pulldown route helps for now in taming the effect a bit. I think I've finally got the AV sync settled though I have to adjust it a bit for 24p on or off.

The rainbow effect mentioned is definitely there on plasma. It's not like the DLP rainbowing at least not on my ST60. It's more of if I accidentally look slightly off axis or I randomly get impressions of rainbow flashes sometimes. At first I thought I was going nuts seeing things on a plasma screen.

The irony is: in spite of its "I can't possibly move it" size, geometry fun, slight overscan I did to hide more geometry not fun, 1080i and the phosphor trailing...my hdcrt has none of these issues and is otherwise so darn pleasing to watch. This is without question the set I will still watch older formats on. OLED is beyond unforgiving to DVD.

Ultimate videophile joke/horror: Watch an Alpha Video DVD on an OLED. Just for fun. Then try not to hurl due to the unbearable image.
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Old 12-04-2022, 12:42 PM   #30
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I can’t imagine how anyone would be able to watch movies at 60hz/3:2 pull-down. I’ve enjoyed 24p since my Samsung D8000 plasma from 2011 which upped the refresh rate to 96Hz in film mode to duplicate each frame 4 times and it looked natural and great. Yes there was motion blur in some fast panning shots but I never noticed any stutter. 24p was fine on my X900E with cinemotion on high and smoothness at 0. I just got an A80J a few days ago and I find I have to run smoothness at 1 now otherwise it doesn’t look as good as the X900E. 99% of the time so far this seems great, only time I noticed something looking weird was the shot of the water in Rambo 4 right before the mercenaries are introduced. I can’t imagine any circumstance where running cinemotion on any setting other than high on a Sony TV would make sense. Looks great regardless of source being native apps, broadcast tv or blu rays.

Edit: I do recall the absolute nightmare of trying to get my HTPC to output proper frame cadence 10 years ago and I see not much has changed, glad I gave up that idea and just use tv apps and dedicated players now.

Last edited by WetCardboard; 12-04-2022 at 12:49 PM.
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