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Old 04-29-2021, 08:49 PM   #1
Kyle_g89 Kyle_g89 is offline
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Default About HDR and itís intent?

Some discussions I read were a catalyst for this topic, but what is HDR supposed to be intended for, or what should it be used for and is it being used for the best intention?

Like for example, is HDR being used as a gimmick to exaggerate how dynamic contrast can be with deep blacks and bright whites on a HDR capable display, with OLED etc.

Or

Is HDR intended to recreate the cinematic experience more closely that you might get from a projection experience in a cinema?

I wonder if the cinema projection was always more capable of displaying highlights with retained detail, with deep blacks, or is HDR bringing a new dynamic balance to cinema that was never there before?

When I look at old dvds whites were blown out and crushed of detail.

I don’t own too many 4Ks, so I was wondering if 4K collectors could chime in what they’re seeing most the time? Are 4Ks bringing us closer to cinema, or being gimmicky, or enhancing cinema in a way it wasn’t before?

Last edited by Kyle_g89; 04-29-2021 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 04-29-2021, 08:54 PM   #2
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Is HDR intended to recreate the cinematic experience more closely that you might get from a projection experience in a cinema?
Yes, for the most part, this is the correct answer when it comes to movies. You won't see too many movies that use HDR just for the sake of showing off the full capabilities of the format, as much as that may anger some people.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:01 PM   #3
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It’s a double edged sword imo. One the one hand, HDR allows for more gradations which in turn allows for film sources (and some digital ones too) to be shown without compromising highlights in darker and brighter areas and objects. This is important because SDR actually has less gradations than film, which causes SDR transfers to clip and compromise most film sources to some extent.

The other one is color. Film goes beyond the SDR / Rec. 709 color gamut, and HDR Rec. 2020 allows for basically all the colors in film and digital sources to be reproduced faithfully.


On the other hand, HDR can definitely get way brighter and way darker than film itself and all projectors (including digital ones) available today. So in that sense, the brightness range of HDR is not faithful to film or theaters per say, however, given the very different viewing environments and displays that consumers use as opposed to cinemas, I think the ‘translation’ from the source to HDR is more faithful than its translation to SDR. Because you don’t have to compromise on the color or the detail in bright and dark highlights, as opposed to SDR which is compromised in both.


So basically, when used properly, HDR is more faithful to the source than SDR, at least imo. And for the great majority of content, I don’t think it’s a gimmick at all.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post
Itís a double edged sword imo. One the one hand, HDR allows for more gradations which in turn allows for film sources (and some digital ones too) to be shown without compromising highlights in darker and brighter areas and objects. This is important because SDR actually has less gradations than film, which causes SDR transfers to clip and compromise most film sources to some extent.

The other one is color. Film goes beyond the SDR / Rec. 709 color gamut, and HDR Rec. 2020 allows for basically all the colors in film and digital sources to be reproduced faithfully.


On the other hand, HDR can definitely get way brighter and way darker than film itself and all projectors (including digital ones) available today. So in that sense, the brightness range of HDR is not faithful to film or theaters per say, however, given the very different viewing environments and displays that consumers use as opposed to cinemas, I think the Ďtranslationí from the source to HDR is more faithful than its translation to SDR. Because you donít have to compromise on the color or the detail in bright and dark highlights, as opposed to SDR which is compromised in both.


So basically, when used properly, HDR is more faithful to the source than SDR, at least imo. And for the great majority of content, I donít think itís a gimmick at all.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_g89 View Post
Is HDR intended to recreate the cinematic experience more closely that you might get from a projection experience in a cinema?
No, at least not for movies older than a few years.
Quote:
I wonder if the cinema projection was always more capable of displaying highlights with retained detail, with deep blacks, or is HDR bringing a new dynamic balance to cinema that was never there before?
The latter. The standard luminance for traditional cinema projectors was 48 (!) nits. Dolby Cinema is 108 nits. HDR for home media usually assumes at least a few hundred nits. HDR in cinemas is a very new development that only became possible with the introduction of modern laser-based light sources.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_g89 View Post
Some discussions I read were a catalyst for this topic, but what is HDR supposed to be intended for, or what should it be used for and is it being used for the best intention?

Like for example, is HDR being used as a gimmick to exaggerate how dynamic contrast can be with deep blacks and bright whites on a HDR capable display, with OLED etc.

Or

Is HDR intended to recreate the cinematic experience more closely that you might get from a projection experience in a cinema?
It can do both. Which will depend on the transfer. Lots of discussions about this in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_g89 View Post
I wonder if the cinema projection was always more capable of displaying highlights with retained detail, with deep blacks, or is HDR bringing a new dynamic balance to cinema that was never there before?

When I look at old dvds whites were blown out and crushed of detail.

I donít own too many 4Ks, so I was wondering if 4K collectors could chime in what theyíre seeing most the time? Are 4Ks bringing us closer to cinema, or being gimmicky, or enhancing cinema in a way it wasnít before?
Transparent (transmissive) media (film) can reach high contrast. Some of it it's lost in projection (in the shadows) due to projector's lens flare, flare from room/cinema walls reflections, etc.

HDR should be able to equal, or surpass this, specially with 12bit or higher display, DV, etc. Lots of discussions about this in this forum.

Right now OLEDs favor more of the shadow detail, LCDs more the highlight detail. Either they will get brighter or contrastier or newer tech will do both.

Lots of discussions about this in this forum.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:37 PM   #7
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"It's all bulls***, and it's bad for ya." - George Carlin
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:39 PM   #8
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HDR is crayons.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Transparent (transmissive) media (film) can reach high contrast. Some of it it's lost in projection (in the shadows) due to projector's lens flare, flare from room/cinema walls reflections, etc.
Even if there was no stray light at all, the brightness of film-based projectors was never anywhere near sufficient to achieve the contrast ratios required for HDR. The power consumption and heat would be immense. Only modern digital projectors with more efficient light engines made it feasible.
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:23 PM   #10
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The argument isn't about the projection, imo, but of the "OCN", the camera negative which the director, DP, producer or all these parties originally supervised creation of and approved.

This data is scanned in a raw manner sometimes up to 16 bits of depth and then graded digitally based often on the original creators coming back and supervising AGAIN to match the intent while allowing much more of what is natively in the print (contrast wise, steps of dynamic range etc) than could be seen in consumer theatrical screenings with limited technologies; but certainly MORE than SDR blu-ray could.

Bottom line whether you personally think it's a gimmick or not? The objective scientific reality is that 10-bit 4K UHD video, and 4K UltraHD disc format was always going to be necesary as the next step to releasing the potential for more accuracy in home video.
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:25 PM   #11
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
Even if there was no stray light at all, the brightness of film-based projectors was never anywhere near sufficient to achieve the contrast ratios required for HDR. The power consumption and heat would be immense. Only modern digital projectors with more efficient light engines made it feasible.
You mean achieve brightness. Contrast ratio is not brightness, is the difference between the brightest part and the darkest part. Film can have high contrast ratio, the highest before OLEDs came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
doing a quick search for film densiity I got this post by Edgar Njari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar Njari
Hi everyone.

I would just like to inform you about a certain test that Kodak
did on one of their motion picture films (vision 500T 5279).
the test included photgraphing shiny metal spheres that reflect
very bright highlights. The tests confirmed that there were
variations recorded 15.9 stops above 18% gray, which gives film
a dynamic range of about 20 stops
.

I can't provide you with any links because the tests are described in
some SMPTE documents, which require SMPTE membership.
But here is a link to a post from John Pytlak from kodak that
explains it all.

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2...showtopic=2649
too bad the link doesn't work anymore & Pytlak is gone (RIP) but he always seemed he knew his stuff and explained it well.


And for prints this Gray-Scale Transformations of Digital Film Data for Display, Conversion, and Film Recording (from 1993) which shows a range of 3.25-4 (log density) (2000:1 to 8000:1, 11 to 13 f/stops) for prints and of course after that with Vision it's up to to 5.5 (log density) (250,000:1, 18 f/stops)
If film stock has a contrast ratio 11 to 20 f/stops, it has a 2000:1 to 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio from 48 nits to the darkest part (0.024nits for 2000:1, 0.000192nits for 250,000:1, etc.) Increasing the brightness won't change the contrast ratio. It'll be 250,000:1 from 4800nits to 0.0192nits. OLEDs being around 1000nits and having "infinite"™ contrast ratio are fine for reproducing cinema. High end LCDs even tho they have less contrast do a pretty good job of encompassing real cinemas contrast performance too.

We had this same discussions 3 or 4 years ago


[Show spoiler]Lots of discussions about this in this forum.
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:41 PM   #12
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lilboyblu it'll probably die out.

And yes Fiffy if we talk brightness, projected film would never reach the brightness of video's HDR, HDR on a proper OLED or LCD etc, it's more akin to viewing large film transparencies on an illuminator (which then could reach HDR brightness), which when chemical image was king, was considered the usurpassable apex of imaging.
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Film can have high contrast ratio, the highest before OLEDs came.
Film can, but until a few years ago it was impossible to bring it on a screen with a projector. That's the issue. HDR in cinemas didn't exist until recently.
Quote:
If film stock has a contrast ratio 11 to 20 f/stops, it has a 2000:1 to 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio from 48 nits to the darkest part (0.024nits for 2000:1, 0.000192nits for 250,000:1, etc.) Increasing the brightness won't change the contrast ratio. It'll be 250,000:1 from 4800nits to 0.0192nits. OLEDs being around 1000nits and having "infinite"™ contrast ratio are fine for reproducing cinema.
I've never seen an OLED screen in a cinema.

I think we're talking past each other. Building TVs with the necessary contrast ratios has been possible for a while. Cinema projectors are a whole different story.
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post
when used properly
As always, the key.
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:11 PM   #15
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Its intent?
Its not sentient.
Its directors vs cinematographer vs idiots who want every film to look like it was shot digital at 16k.
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Old 04-30-2021, 05:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_g89 View Post
Some discussions I read were a catalyst for this topic, but what is HDR supposed to be intended for, or what should it be used for and is it being used for the best intention?

Like for example, is HDR being used as a gimmick to exaggerate how dynamic contrast can be with deep blacks and bright whites on a HDR capable display, with OLED etc.

Or

Is HDR intended to recreate the cinematic experience more closely that you might get from a projection experience in a cinema?

I wonder if the cinema projection was always more capable of displaying highlights with retained detail, with deep blacks, or is HDR bringing a new dynamic balance to cinema that was never there before?....
Kyle, I donít think HDR is considered a gimmick when this theater Ė https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post18788773 at the new (yet to open to the general public) Academy Museum of Motion Pictures is also outfitted with Dolby Vision laser projectors.

These days I think the discussion by creators has evolved beyond the validation of HDR to things like how to maintain the intended photography, virtual nit device, recovery of highlights/black mapping and Dolby trim pass.
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Old 05-01-2021, 10:23 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
It can do both. Which will depend on the transfer. Lots of discussions about this in this forum.



Transparent (transmissive) media (film) can reach high contrast. Some of it it's lost in projection (in the shadows) due to projector's lens flare, flare from room/cinema walls reflections, etc.

HDR should be able to equal, or surpass this, specially with 12bit or higher display, DV, etc. Lots of discussions about this in this forum.

Right now OLEDs favor more of the shadow detail, LCDs more the highlight detail. Either they will get brighter or contrastier or newer tech will do both.

Lots of discussions about this in this forum.
Sony OLED places importance on getting shadow detail right. LG OLED''s, not so much. I think you would have to spend additional monies on professional calibration on LG OLEDs to get the shadow detail right.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Sony OLED places importance on getting shadow detail right. LG OLED''s, not so much. I think you would have to spend additional monies on professional calibration on LG OLEDs to get the shadow detail right.
Eh, not really. A bit off topic, but, Sony usually overbrightness shadow detail (i.e. it comes out of black faster than the EOTF curve in the lower values, and thus shadow detail is brighter than it should be). With LG it is more of a panel-to-panel variance. It is true that most LG OLEDs seem a tad darker than they should be in shadow detail, but, thankfully you can calibrate it to make it accurate. Interestingly, Vincent from HDTVTest was not able to match the lower values of the EOTF curve in the A90J to match the accurate EOTF values (i.e., he was not able to fix the overbrightening of shadow detail even during calibration).

So really, neither one is 100% accurate in shadow detail OOTB, but at least with LGs you can fix it with calibration, with that new Sony, it seems you canít without trading off something else, at least with the current firmware.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:55 PM   #19
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Whatever the intention was it certainly seems like it was a mistake.

It still doesn't seem fully defined and I'm not sure any display can take full advantage of it.

These days displays have processors to try to deal with it because basically it's non sense. Tone mapping is supposedly the "fix" but why it needs to be "fixed" is another matter. It's like they ran out of ideas for selling TVs in the endless attempt to one up each other.

I don't like it. Maybe because my projector isn't good at it or maybe that's just a coincidence.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by bhampton View Post
Whatever the intention was it certainly seems like it was a mistake.

It still doesn't seem fully defined and I'm not sure any display can take full advantage of it.

These days displays have processors to try to deal with it because basically it's non sense. Tone mapping is supposedly the "fix" but why it needs to be "fixed" is another matter. It's like they ran out of ideas for selling TVs in the endless attempt to one up each other.

I don't like it. Maybe because my projector isn't good at it or maybe that's just a coincidence.
For me going from JVC 540 to the JVC NX5 was a big leap in appreciating HDR.
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