Official Denon Owners Thread

[luv2shop]

Originally Posted by chip75

My AVR has had a couple of updates in the last week or so, but after the one last night, using ARC and my LG's Disney+ App the sound was cutting out every few seconds, it was Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo, so it wasn't in 5.1 or DD+ (which seems to have caused issues a while back).

Later I watched a bit of The Umbrella Academy which is DD+ and that seemed fine.

Any thoughts?

I would also like to know if anyone else is experiencing this. I am not sure if I had any updates but all of the sudden I get no sound from any of my tv's LG apps through my Denon (AVRS730H). It plays with sound just from the tv, but when I try to play it through the surround sound, nothing. I have a Firestick and all the apps play fine through the receiver. I have the setup the same as I always had and never had an issue with sound.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by luv2shop

I would also like to know if anyone else is experiencing this. I am not sure if I had any updates but all of the sudden I get no sound from any of my tv's LG apps through my Denon (AVRS730H). It plays with sound just from the tv, but when I try to play it through the surround sound, nothing. I have a Firestick and all the apps play fine through the receiver. I have the setup the same as I always had and never had an issue with sound.

Did the LG's ARC settings change? Mine get disabled if there's anything funky going on, even if I turn off the TV when the AVR is on, it sometimes disables the ARC.

I think some people have had to roll-back the AVR's firmware, but the issue seems to have gone away with me.

[SlaughterX]

My uncle gave me his old X2500H since he just uses a Sonos soundbar now. Pretty happy with it, even though it's just a slightly newer version of my X2200W, which is moved to my bedroom but still haven't hooked up yet.

Looking forward for a true upgrade after I buy this house, but I might wait a little while. Do I need a new AVR for VRR and HDR10+? Wanna get a 77 OLED (C9 or better) first...

[shrex]

Does anyone with the x2200w have a PS5? Does the Denon pass HDR through all HDMI? I quickly set up up my PS5 today and plugged it into the front AUX1 HDMI and it didn’t seem to pass HDR.

[SlaughterX]

Looking to upgrade to a higher end AVR... this thing isn't powerful enough to really push my Martin Logan Preface floorstanders. I think I need something 130 watts per channel (running all channels not just stereo) or better, which is what my old Aventage 3000 is I believe that used to be hooked up to these speakers. Looking for a good deal on a higher end AVR and I can wait for the deal.

[dcx4610]

I guess this is the best place to ask this question. I've never closely followed the different audio formats like DTS and how exactly they work.

I've noticed on a lot of Blu-rays that claim to be 2.0 Stereo, I end up getting some audio in my surrounds (I have a 5.1 setup). Meanwhile, the Denon itself automatically decodes as HD Master Audio, DTS Master and I notice it sometimes says Neural X.

I watched Cyborg last night which says it has a 2.0 mix and the receiver said HD + Neural X. This ended up putting dialogue in the rear channels as well as the fronts and it was just bizarre.

Now I can manually force the receiver to straight stereo but is that what I should be doing? Why is the receiver automatically selecting and decoding the audio this way?

I've also read that despite it saying it's a 2.0 stereo mix, it's a phased audio track and you are supposed to hear some sound in the surrounds.

Just a little confused and hoping someone can explain it and if there is anything on the receiver I need to do to make sure I'm getting the correct mix.

[Gryphon63]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Now I can manually force the receiver to straight stereo but is that what I should be doing? Why is the receiver automatically selecting and decoding the audio this way?

Same here (AVR-X3500H). I put in a disc with a stereo mix and confirmed with the on-screen display that the receiver was getting only L&R channels from the player, and it displayed DTS-HD+Neural:X. I had to force it to stereo. It seems to default to wanting to use all the speakers you have, and if that requires up-processing with Neural:X then so be it. If you want to narrow it down to real stereo or mono you have to tell it to do that.

The only way I know to get it to automatically play just the audio on the disc without any up-processing is to put the receiver into one of the DIRECT modes but that also bypasses the Audyssey room EQ. If you want to keep Audyssey then I think you have to manually manage the audio mode to some extent.

Of course, you should verify that you're really getting just L+R audio from your player. I have the Criterion release of Anatomy of a Murder which includes the original Mono mix as well as a 5.1 mix, and with either one the player enables 5.1 audio. The track is encoded on the disc as mono - I guess the player can only put that through to the center channel as part of a 5.1 signal. To actually hear it as mono, though, I have to force the receiver into Mono, otherwise the Neural:X kicks in and I get output from the other speakers.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Gryphon63

Same here (AVR-X3500H). I put in a disc with a stereo mix and confirmed with the on-screen display that the receiver was getting only L&R channels from the player, and it displayed DTS-HD+Neural:X. I had to force it to stereo. It seems to default to wanting to use all the speakers you have, and if that requires up-processing with Neural:X then so be it. If you want to narrow it down to real stereo or mono you have to tell it to do that.

The only way I know to get it to automatically play just the audio on the disc without any up-processing is to put the receiver into one of the DIRECT modes but that also bypasses the Audyssey room EQ. If you want to keep Audyssey then I think you have to manually manage the audio mode to some extent.

Of course, you should verify that you're really getting just L+R audio from your player. I have the Criterion release of Anatomy of a Murder which includes the original Mono mix as well as a 5.1 mix, and with either one the player enables 5.1 audio. The track is encoded on the disc as mono - I guess the player can only put that through to the center channel as part of a 5.1 signal. To actually hear it as mono, though, I have to force the receiver into Mono, otherwise the Neural:X kicks in and I get output from the other speakers.

You shouldn't get mono films upmixed to anything but the centre speaker when using the normal Dolby Surround mode unless A the disc is encoded as 2.0 and is slightly out of phase or B you have centre spread enabled in the Denon settings.

I wouldn't recommend DTS Neural X upmixing because it's a bit heavy handed anyway. I always stick to the Dolby Surround setting which, if you need it, is far more subtle and always sends mono to the centre speaker on mine.

[SlaughterX]

I just had a really awful experience with Denon customer service. Set-up an alert to get a notification when the refurb 3700 came back in stock, and it it did... got the e-mail... ordered with in 5 minutes. Was really excited to get it because I finally unboxed my 77 inch LG C1 in the loft and got it all hooked up and wanted to use this Emotiva amp my friend let me borrow over a year ago... realized the only AVR that had preouts in the house was an old Yamaha A300, so I am using that in the meantime, but wanted to upgrade to something with all the newest HDMI features (because I am a gamer) like the Onkyo 7100 I just bought, but with preouts.

Anyway that was a week ago. Ordered it with expedited shipping so it should have got here in 3-5 business days... I waited until day 6 before reaching out to customer service. Got an e-mail reply after talking to someone, and it said that the AVR was on back order... I replied telling them that was unacceptable and to cancel my order if they cannot fill it or offer my some type or replacement or compensation. They responded saying they already put in a request to cancel my order. Got another e-mail today saying that it will ship on Monday... called them back and told them that I didn't want it and that I already ordered something else, and they basically told me it won't ship until Monday... but they can't cancel the order because it already shipped... but I can send it back.

Lol. Just awful. I have owned 3 Denon AVRs, an SACD player, a few other products too I think, but after this experience I don't think I will ever buy another product from any of their associated brands again. I loved how in every e-mail they have the prefilled part about me being a valued customer. Hell, they could have offered me like 10% off for all the trouble and I probably would have kept it to throw in the bedroom or something but I think I'll just refuse the package when it gets here and let them deal with the wasted shipped fees that will probably cost them more than $100. I was actually really excited to get this, but I am glad I went with the RZ50 because it just seems to be a better choice anyway.

[silentbob]

I waited 10.5 months to receive my Denon x6700 receiver, and just got it last week. I tried getting a refund but I was doing equal monthly payments and couldn’t get refunded. So about a month before I got my receiver, the store lent me a Denon x4700 to use. Watched No way Home and Godzilla Vs Kong 3D and sounded great. Tried my x6700 this weekend and was getting audio drops but I think it’s because the receiver is plugged into a power bar and will try to find a nearby outlet instead.

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by SlaughterX

I just had a really awful experience with Denon customer service. Set-up an alert to get a notification when the refurb 3700 came back in stock, and it it did... got the e-mail... ordered with in 5 minutes. Was really excited to get it because I finally unboxed my 77 inch LG C1 in the loft and got it all hooked up and wanted to use this Emotiva amp my friend let me borrow over a year ago... realized the only AVR that had preouts in the house was an old Yamaha A300, so I am using that in the meantime, but wanted to upgrade to something with all the newest HDMI features (because I am a gamer) like the Onkyo 7100 I just bought, but with preouts.

Anyway that was a week ago. Ordered it with expedited shipping so it should have got here in 3-5 business days... I waited until day 6 before reaching out to customer service. Got an e-mail reply after talking to someone, and it said that the AVR was on back order... I replied telling them that was unacceptable and to cancel my order if they cannot fill it or offer my some type or replacement or compensation. They responded saying they already put in a request to cancel my order. Got another e-mail today saying that it will ship on Monday... called them back and told them that I didn't want it and that I already ordered something else, and they basically told me it won't ship until Monday... but they can't cancel the order because it already shipped... but I can send it back.

Lol. Just awful. I have owned 3 Denon AVRs, an SACD player, a few other products too I think, but after this experience I don't think I will ever buy another product from any of their associated brands again. I loved how in every e-mail they have the prefilled part about me being a valued customer. Hell, they could have offered me like 10% off for all the trouble and I probably would have kept it to throw in the bedroom or something but I think I'll just refuse the package when it gets here and let them deal with the wasted shipped fees that will probably cost them more than $100. I was actually really excited to get this, but I am glad I went with the RZ50 because it just seems to be a better choice anyway.

I've always liked Onkyo gear. I used to have one of their preamp/processors, the PR-SC886, and prior to that, the Onkyo 805. That 805 was a beast. I felt like that unit still gave the 886 + dedicated external amps a run for the money (within the 805s capabilities, of course). I love the aesthetics of the current models, and of course they still sound excellent, too.

[SlaughterX]

Yeah the 605 was my first dedicated AVR and I think I had the 806 as well but sold it (and the 605). Just hooked up my RZ50 yesterday in the living room and I am happy with it!

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I guess this is the best place to ask this question. I've never closely followed the different audio formats like DTS and how exactly they work.

I've noticed on a lot of Blu-rays that claim to be 2.0 Stereo, I end up getting some audio in my surrounds (I have a 5.1 setup). Meanwhile, the Denon itself automatically decodes as HD Master Audio, DTS Master and I notice it sometimes says Neural X.

I watched Cyborg last night which says it has a 2.0 mix and the receiver said HD + Neural X. This ended up putting dialogue in the rear channels as well as the fronts and it was just bizarre.

Now I can manually force the receiver to straight stereo but is that what I should be doing? Why is the receiver automatically selecting and decoding the audio this way?

I've also read that despite it saying it's a 2.0 stereo mix, it's a phased audio track and you are supposed to hear some sound in the surrounds.

Just a little confused and hoping someone can explain it and if there is anything on the receiver I need to do to make sure I'm getting the correct mix.

I used to test all my discs like 5-10 years ago. I haven't re-watched Cyborg in 5+ years. Furthermore, I bought this triple pack when it was released, and I wrote in my notes that all 3 movies had no REAR surround activity. I even want to say it plays only through your Front L&R Towers or Bookshelves only too. I might play it sometime and take a re-listen and update this post or make another response.



EDIT: = Yes, it's a DTS 2.0 Track to your FRONT LEFT AND RIGHT. No Center and No rears. Dead silent from them. The DTS-HD track averages 800kbps-1.2 MBps

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

I used to test all my discs like 5-10 years ago. I haven't re-watched Cyborg in 5+ years. Furthermore, I bought this triple pack when it was released, and I wrote in my notes that all 3 movies had no REAR surround activity. I even want to say it plays only through your Front L&R Towers or Bookshelves only too. I might play it sometime and take a re-listen and update this post or make another response.



EDIT: = Yes, it's a DTS 2.0 Track to your FRONT LEFT AND RIGHT. No Center and No rears. Dead silent from them. The DTS-HD track averages 800kbps-1.2 MBps

Sounds like a receiver thing to me. DTS 2.0 Master Audio is supposed to be decoded into matrixed surround. Some older receivers or depending on the mode you are using will force Left/Right only for DTS 2.0 tracks. I originally thought that was correct but apparently actual 2 channel DTS tracks are rare and they are intended to fold down into a multi-channel setup like a movie theater.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Sounds like a receiver thing to me. DTS 2.0 Master Audio is supposed to be decoded into matrixed surround. Some older receivers or depending on the mode you are using will force Left/Right only for DTS 2.0 tracks. I originally thought that was correct but apparently actual 2 channel DTS tracks are rare and they are intended to fold down into a multi-channel setup like a movie theater.

Hmm, yes, I did some research. You are on the right track. I fast forwarded to the credits to confirm if this was Dolby stereo or Ultra stereo. Sure enough, it is an Ultra Stereo title. Lower budget or independent films had this in theaters back in the 80s. There were something like 900-1,000 titles I've read.

To get this to decode, I had to set everything to uncompressed. Then, when I resumed the disc, my Dolby Pro Logic II kicked in on the screen and no more DTS digital surround on the LCD. That codec will give you what you would get in a theater. Ultra stereo surround on your front main 3 L C R with those nice pans how I remembered it. I just never saw this in the Theatre, but I did see Halloween 5, and it had this type of matrixed nice front soundstage with the clear pans from left to right and used all the speakers L C R for a heavy front surround sound.

Anyway, on this title you should hear a lot of synth sounds on the rears from your background 2 speakers too!

So yeah, I get all 5 speakers to hum now by using Uncompressed out. Then my receiver which is old and not a Denon will switch and use the PLII codec which is the ideal way. If I run the DTS codec I get just 2.0 like I said before. PLII would be how this sounded in a theater, you are correct, but it wasn't called DTS or PLII it was called Ultra Stereo. Ultra Stereo was short-lived, but was basically identical to the Dolby Stereo NR 4:2:4 matrix system.

Look for this in the credits if unsure in the future. Then make sure you have Pro Logic II codec or whatever Denon's is on your LCD screen. So it gets the matrix to unfold.


Further reading about Ultra Stereo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Stereo
Creator Jack Cashin
http://fj.webedia.us/content/sound-d...ished-memories
Matrix Decoder section
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix...(matrix)_4:2:4
Decent list of 80's titles that used this codec.
https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?s...=ttspec_spec_2

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Hmm, yes, I did some research. You are on the right track. I fast forwarded to the credits to confirm if this was Dolby stereo or Ultra stereo. Sure enough, it is an Ultra Stereo title. Lower budget or independent films had this in theaters back in the 80s. There were something like 900-1,000 titles I've read.

To get this to decode, I had to set everything to uncompressed. Then, when I resumed the disc, my Dolby Pro Logic II kicked in on the screen and no more DTS digital surround on the LCD. That codec will give you what you would get in a theater. Ultra stereo surround on your front main 3 L C R with those nice pans how I remembered it. I just never saw this in the Theatre, but I did see Halloween 5, and it had this type of matrixed nice front soundstage with the clear pans from left to right and used all the speakers L C R for a heavy front surround sound.

Anyway, on this title you should hear a lot of synth sounds on the rears from your background 2 speakers too!

So yeah, I get all 5 speakers to hum now by using Uncompressed out. Then my receiver which is old and not a Denon will switch and use the PLII codec which is the ideal way. If I run the DTS codec I get just 2.0 like I said before. PLII would be how this sounded in a theater, you are correct, but it wasn't called DTS or PLII it was called Ultra Stereo. Ultra Stereo was short-lived, but was basically identical to the Dolby Stereo NR 4:2:4 matrix system.

Look for this in the credits if unsure in the future. Then make sure you have Pro Logic II codec or whatever Denon's is on your LCD screen. So it gets the matrix to unfold.


Further reading about Ultra Stereo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Stereo
Creator Jack Cashin
http://fj.webedia.us/content/sound-d...ished-memories
Matrix Decoder section
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix...(matrix)_4:2:4
Decent list of 80's titles that used this codec.
https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?s...=ttspec_spec_2

My player and receiver are both set to uncompressed and unfortunately, it decodes things like Cyborg as HD Master Audio + Neural X - The Neural X is Denon's version of Pro Logic but it's not perfect.

For me, the dialogue bleeds into the surrounds on Cyborg so you get this very weird, distracting phasing.

As far as I know, there is no way to disable Neural X or enable plain old Dolby Pro Logic on modern Denon receivers. Neural X is the decoder they use use for those type of signals.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I've also read that despite it saying it's a 2.0 stereo mix, it's a phased audio track, and you are supposed to hear some sound in the surrounds.

In short, yes, Ultra Stereo Mixes are phased. Read the part after it says (The) Ultra Stereo (system,) in blue/hyperlink, and it tries to describe how it was designed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix...(matrix)_4:2:4


Opinions ensue...not necessary reading.

[Show spoiler]I think this is how Ultra Stereo mixes are supposed to actually sound. The Center dialog does come through the rears by design, albeit in a lowered volume and out of phase by 90 degrees.

You said it sounded out of phase, well the REAR CHANNEL is designed to be like the LT and RT with a 90° phase-shift. The REAR surround channel is a single limited frequency-range (7 kHz low-pass filtered) mono rear channel, dynamically compressed and placed with a lower volume than the rest. So your rears are a low-passed Mono filtered out of phase LT RT background mix, if that makes sense.

Hell, who knows really! I feel like I'm typing nonsense.

They're different from straight Dolby Surround mixes. They do apply some out of phasing in these Ultra Stereo mixes. When I watch Death Warrant (which is vanilla Stereo Surround Dolby) it sounds very STRAIGHT and logical and when I watch Ultra Stereo Mixes they sound kind of off/mysterious/weird/disorienting etc. by being 90 degrees out of phase, which works for Cyborg or Halloween 4 and 5.

I'm not 100% sure either though because when I watched Halloween 5 in theaters the front sound stage was quite loud compared to the rears. As you can see from this explanation the REAR 2 speakers or however many there were behind the theater curtains... well I didn't really notice, most likely because it was only a 7khz low pass filtered whereas the front sound stage would have been 20khz or more, probably. So you or I would be hearing lower notes than the front with a 90 degree out of phase signal applied, and if you read back, then they could add a delay as well. Now, back then, especially if sitting up front or middle front like I was. Today I sit in a small square living room 20+ feet, not a big long 100+ foot theater hallway room. Also, if you look up theater audio theory our ears are designed to hear better in front of us than from behind, so you could factor that in as well. I personally don't really care for rear speakers in almost every mix, they never seem to add much, but that's just my personal preference/opinion.

Anyway, I like turning the Shout/Scream Halloween 4K/Blu-Ray 2.0 Mix Center and Subwoofer up louder than the Surrounds db. That's my personal preference, being that I never saw Cyborg in theaters I have no idea how it should sound in my square living room area now LOL. I just like a loud front stage and left to right surround overall. The rear mixes just usually have minor details/background noises...crickets, honestly.

Anyway, if your rears are out of phase and a low mix of the center dialog, yes that's how it was supposed to sound. If you have small satellites without tweeters, yeah it would sound even worse with just small woofers or whatever. Best to have a REAR bookshelves or towers, I would imagine, for these older Dolby Stereo Surround/Ultra Stereo Surround mixes.

Sorry about the long-winded post, I do it for myself more than for you haha. And it's just a bunch of nonsense. Good luck to both of us.

[dcx4610]

Nice post, KubrickKurasawa.

It definitely makes me feel better and that I wasn't listening to these tracks incorrectly. Cyborg just really stood out to me as sounding weird and off but sounds like it was intentional.

Another recent example that had some talk was the Raging Bull 4K. The back of the insert says "2.0 Surround". What?

I think for many of us (myself included), I had always assumed 1.0 meant mono and a single speaker while 2.0 were Left and Right channels only. Only recently did I learn that some of these formats are encoded and then "folded" or decoded into multi-channels even if it just says 2.0 and can make use of surround and center channels.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Another recent example that had some talk was the Raging Bull 4K. The back of the insert says "2.0 Surround". What?

I think for many of us (myself included), I had always assumed 1.0 meant mono and a single speaker while 2.0 were Left and Right channels only. Only recently did I learn that some of these formats are encoded and then "folded" or decoded into multi-channels, even if it just says 2.0 and can make use of surround and center channels.

Yeah, it fooled me too!

The optical soundtrack on a Dolby Stereo encoded 35 mm film carries not only left and right tracks for stereophonic sound, but also—through a matrix decoding system, Dolby Motion Picture Matrix or Dolby MP. In 1975, Dolby introduces the sound format Dolby Stereo. On the ubiquitous 35*mm release prints, (70*mm was getting too expensive and the sound wore off actually) it is possible to squeeze in two optical soundtracks, call them Left and Right. The Dolby Stereo system also records, in those two channels, sound for a center channel and a surround channel (see technical explanation below), thereby delivering 4 channels via a 2 channel carrier.


Raging Bull says Dolby Stereo at the end credits, Criterion says it's a 4K transfer from a 35*mm print, I would imagine.

Therefore, it's actually 4 channels. (1) L, (2) R, then a (3) Center and a (4) Rear Effects/Soundtrack from my understanding. Maybe the Punch sounds/Foley and the Symphony right.

If you don't send this 4-track info to the decoder it defaults to a 2.0 stereophonic track, or if the theater was cheap/run down and didn't have the Dolby decoder, they would get the 2 L&R at least and only need 2 amps right. I'm not exactly sure how they got mono off of it for drive-ins?

With the 1976 decoder at the theater, it would be something like this.


The beauty of the system was compatibility: A 35*mm Dolby Stereo film could be played anywhere, whether in a non-Dolby mono drive-in or in a theater upgraded with Dolby Cinema decoders and a 4-channel playback system. And, with no appreciable cost increase in manufacturing stereo prints. By 1977, the success of blockbusters such as Star Wars motivated many theaters to invest if they hadn't already in Dolby Stereo Surround.

Interestingly, the tens of thousands of Dolby Stereo tracks encoded onto VHS HIFI video releases laid the groundwork for a revolution in home theater, fueled by the arrival of Dolby Pro Logic — equipped stereo components in the years to come.

Something like that, anyway...

[oddbox83]

I picked up a refurb X2700H for almost half the price of the new 2022 models.

There was nothing wrong with my older X2500H apart from the lack of eARC and VRR, but since my new TV supports 4K VRR it made sense to upgrade the receiver when I saw the good deal so I can still enjoy lossless audio from my console.

It was my first Denon refurb and apart from a box re-sealed with tape, there was nothing else to give it away, it looks brand new.