Blu-ray audio rates overkill?

[kfbkfb]

http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic...g2.pdf#page=19
^^^
58kHz sampling rate, and
20-bit representation in a flat noise floor


That's what's needed for "audible transparency", anything more is overkill.


Kirk Bayne

[stonesfan129]

Use your ears. What do you hear? My subjective opinion is that Dolby Digital 5.1 640kbps is good enough.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Use your ears. What do you hear? My subjective opinion is that Dolby Digital 5.1 640kbps is good enough.

There is very few people that think DD5.1 is good enough. It just lacks the dynamics of say a DTS-HD-MA track. Go listen to Red with the cheap BD that offered DD 5.1 and the special edition using DTS-HD-5.1.



Even the Apple TV offers DD5.1 as the lesser choice compared to multi-ch PCM.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

There is very few people that think DD5.1 is good enough. It just lacks the dynamics of say a DTS-HD-MA track. Go listen to Red with the cheap BD that offered DD 5.1 and the special edition using DTS-HD-5.1.



Even the Apple TV offers DD5.1 as the lesser choice compared to multi-ch PCM.

Curious how the Atmos mix is on the 4K. I always liked this movie (and the 2nd one) but haven’t double dipped yet.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by gotmule

Curious how the Atmos mix is on the 4K. I always liked this movie (and the 2nd one) but haven’t double dipped yet.

Per our review here in Blu-ray.com

Marty gave top marks to Red's Blu-ray DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track, and as someone who's owned the Blu-ray myself since it was first release, I agree with his assessment (though in my tendency toward curmudgeonliness, I may have only scored the Blu-ray at 4.5). One way or the other, the 4K UHD disc's upgrade to Dolby Atmos is one of its most winning features. While things start off relatively subtly, with the sweet interchanges between Bruce Willis' and Mary Louise Parker's characters, there are even noticeable new placement (often midair) of effects in the (Parker) office environment. It takes a while for Red to get to its "good bits" (sonically speaking), but once the action elements of the film kick in, no holds are barred and the track becomes a virtual onslaught of surround activity, with great panning effects, thundering LFE and great bursts of energy courtesy of things like car crashes or gunfire. Even relatively mundane sound effects like Willis pounding a punching bag near the beginning of the film or footsteps on tile resonate with unusual clarity and precision, but when the film's sound design goes for the gusto, the Atmos track offers sterling fidelity, impeccable dynamic range and spot on fidelity.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Per our review here in Blu-ray.com

Just ordered both of them. I have revisited a few action comedy movies lately like Knight and Day and Mr & Mrs Smith, and these two definitely fit in with that vibe.

[Canada]

Lossless is not overkill, the difference to my ear is damn near night and day. I would say not even 96kHz, 24-bit sound for music Blu-ray's are overkill.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

There is very few people that think DD5.1 is good enough. It just lacks the dynamics of say a DTS-HD-MA track. Go listen to Red with the cheap BD that offered DD 5.1 and the special edition using DTS-HD-5.1.



Even the Apple TV offers DD5.1 as the lesser choice compared to multi-ch PCM.

Years ago I created my own test disc using a Blu-ray that had a PCM 5.1 track. I took the PCM 5.1 track and converted it to three different DD 5.1 tracks (640, 448 and 384) and compared them. 640 sounded transparent to the PCM track to me. 448 was pretty good too. I don't think it's worth spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for what may amount to a minor difference in lossless over lossy. Use some of those old Harry Potter Blu-rays as a test disc. That should have a nice dynamic soundtrack and I know the first five movies offered a PCM 5.1 track and a DD 5.1 track. Dolby vs DTS, well now you're getting into a difference of mastering, not lossless vs lossy. Everybody says they hear the difference, then they do a blind test and find that they can't.

[stonesfan129]

*And AppleTV never offered multi-channel PCM. They have always used either AAC or DD 5.1 (and I think now many titles have DD+).

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I don't think it's worth hundreds or thousands of dollars to hear what may be a minor difference in lossless over lossy.

Wow BDs are a lot more expensive in your neck of the world

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Wow BDs are a lot more expensive in your neck of the world

I'm talking about spending money on a high-end receiver and speakers built around lossless audio, not the Blu-ray discs themselves. I have no problem with lossless tracks being included on the discs if there is space for it. I am simply stating that it is unnecessary as lossy DD/lossy DTS are already indistinguishable from lossless.

http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-158987.html
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/dif...s-ac3.1216661/

*Do a blind test. What do your ears tell you?

[Anthony P]

It was meant as a joke, I did not feel like delving in on the rest but here we go

1) I have not spent any where near hundreds of thousands on anything audio related in my HT
2) equipment, room and calibration can make a difference (when you did your test did you take all that into consideration)
3) not every track is the same (you talked about some clips from one BD)
4) not everyone's hearing is the same. (and if you can't hear the difference no one else can)

It is easy to fudge this test to come up with a garbage conclusion that it does not matter, pick some quiet parts with out a lot of nuances, play them in a room with a higher sound floor and you won't find a difference. Now make sure things are played right and pick the right piece and you might see the difference yourself (note you can still decide if it matters or not)

*Do a blind test. What do your ears tell you?

that there is a difference that I care for.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

*And AppleTV never offered multi-channel PCM. They have always used either AAC or DD 5.1 (and I think now many titles have DD+).

The ATV 4K supports Dolby MAT 2.0 with Atmos object information. They don’t use DD+ anymore, if you are connected to a non Atmos AVR it sends multi-ch PCM instead.

See https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251719512

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I don't think it's worth spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for what may amount to a minor difference in lossless over lossy.

The decision to purchase a $600 65" TV compared to a $2000 65" TV is about the same decision.

With a budget AVR and speakers, you can buy it new for about $3000 or find someone's used setup at a estate or garage sale.

But people usually see things go on sale and build a system piece meal from scratch. Say a $650 AVR that is onsite for $549. A couple of $599 tower speakers to start for a stereo setup. Then a impulse buy to a $399 subwoofer, you now have a 2.1 setup. Later then buy a couple of $399 bookcase speakers to use for rears surrounds so you are a 5.1 setup. That all adds up to the approx $3000 mark. You can get some real cheap Polks or Klipsch on sale, or find a full setup (used) at a garage sale.

But if all we are complacent with a $600 65" TV that are terrible at HDR, and large $600 sound bar that is terrible with good audio, well are you really happy?

[scififan73]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I've used the same mains for the past 30 years. With each new format, I've always sourced out timbrally matched sets as I've added channels to my setup. In that time, I've upgraded my amp 5 times-twice in the last year and a half.
While the old adage about garbage in and garbage out applies, I can definitely pick out a lossless track from a compressed one and would not characterize myself as an audiophile.
I've noticed it more with my last two receivers (ONKYO and now DENON). It never ceases to amaze my family that I'm always right when I stop a movie because I can tell that the audio is compressed either because there is no lossless track or because the "core" track has been selected.

I'm the same way. After a few minutes of watching a film (usually a Warner's), i will go back to the main menu only to find that the track defaulted to lossy. Lossy definitely sounds muddy and indistinct next to a good lossless track. The difference should be quite noticeable upon switching back and forth.

[crutzulee]

Yeah, virtually every piece of equipment in my setup has been either a refurb, open box, bought second hand or close out. I haven't been an "early adopter" of anything since I bought the first commercially available Panasonic DVD player.
Even though the gear in my setup might have had a higher price tag initially, I usually paid next to nothing by the time I bit... even so, my last 3 amps have been able to decode lossless sound..
I'd love to be on the side of those claiming that the differences were not audible. I consider myself a man of science. I've read the literature on blind testing and love the idea of debunking snake oil, especially in this hobby as there is just so much to slog through....

.... but....

As I stated earlier, much to the chagrin of my family, that just wants to watch the movie, I often find myself hitting pause early on in the presentation when i feel the audio to be compressed, I am NEVER wrong when the wrong soundtrack has been chosen.

[unberechenbar]

Originally Posted by David M

LPCM 5.1 or higher would arguably be overkill.

Is LPCM 5.1 better than Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio?

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I'm talking about spending money on a high-end receiver and speakers built around lossless audio, not the Blu-ray discs themselves. I have no problem with lossless tracks being included on the discs if there is space for it. I am simply stating that it is unnecessary as lossy DD/lossy DTS are already indistinguishable from lossless.

http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-158987.html
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/dif...s-ac3.1216661/

*Do a blind test. What do your ears tell you?

Hey,

Lossless doesn't have to be expensive. A $400 AVR should do it. Or a mobile device with wired headphones.

I haven't done the double blind tests people always refer to but I watch a variety of things like streaming and disc and I can usually tell when I'm hearing a lossless track. That may be something you don't believe but it is true.

At one time I only did streaming and when I went back to discs I was stunned with the better sound quality. It's a lot like old MP3 vs CD.

Of course there's plenty of people that go with the standard opinion that it's impossible to tell and to them it doesn't matter anyway. If it doesn't matter then obviously it doesn't matter.

Striving for the best playback of media is something I enjoy.

=Brian

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by unberechenbar

Is LPCM 5.1 better than Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio?

All 3 are lossless formats. The PCM is uncompressed and the other 2 have lossless compression.

Which mix is better just comes down to which mix is better if there's any difference at all.