Any rumors about Buffy the Vampire Slayer show coming out on Blu-ray?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by NL197

I could post some good ol' screencaps of ANGEL season 1 in widescreen, but you aren't fond of such things...comedic errors aside (since seasons 1 and 2 were never meant to be widescreen) the first two seasons definitely benefit from the wider presentation, much more than Buffy ever did with the exception of "Hush" which does work in widescreen nicely. Thankfully all the visual effects aren't limited to the 4:3 safe area, they do reach the outer edges.

Doesn't mean I can't post some screencaps for everyone else though

Spoiler-tagged to minimize the amount of screen space.

Here we go:

[Show spoiler]

"City Of" (pilot episode) - 4:3 shot used in a transition


"City Of" - Russell Winters can indeed fly...it was caught on camera! (Wait, where's the rest of the building on the left?)


"Lonely Heart" - When throwing Angel across the room, don't hit the cameraman on the right waiting to pick up the action from an alternate angle!


"The Bachelor Party" - The Straley family dinner...the first reality show broadcast live!


"Hero" - Angel's working out on a punching bag....



...he strikes it with such force it turns invisible!


"Parting Gifts" - Hey, why is Angel grabbing an invisible man?


Oh, there he is!


"Expecting" - So, this elderly couple is really just a pair of actors on a film set?


"Somnambulist" - Hawkeye is confronted by Angel...


...except Hawkeye's arm is invisible. Weird.

Y'know what? As clearly framed for 4:3 as they are, those shots really do work in the wider format too. Even the mise en scene is arranged differently than on Buffy; in keeping with the city location (where living space is typically at a premium) the rooms look tighter and narrower and are filled with more furniture and whatnot, unlike the roomier, more homely locales of Buffy where the dead space is so very, very obvious to me. And I said before about Angel S2, that even with the errors it really does look far more widescreen friendly, hence the 16:9 DVD in America even though Whedon nixed 16:9 Buffy which was being released concurrently with the Angel DVDs.

As Nico suggested, Angel in 16:9 (with S1 + 2 goofs corrected) and 4:3 Buffy would be my ideal mix, but from the studio's viewpoint that might cause a lot of consumer confusion, so I think they'll all be 16:9 (same goes for X-Files).

[GenPion]

If the entirity of Star Trek: The Next Generation can get 4:3 Blu-ray releases why not Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Just because they have an opened up version of the show it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to release it that way.

Maybe the 16:9 version will air on TV syndication and streaming while home media will get Blu-ray releases in the original aspect ratio of 4:3 as Whedon wanted.

[simonynwa]

This is where I feel it is clear on what Buffy should be, but Angel is a little less clear, since here he suggests it should have been 16x9 from Season 1, but the releases on DVD initially were 4x3

IGNFF: Did it surprise you the reaction that the lack of widescreen for Buffy season four on DVD got here in the U.S.?

WHEDON: People were upset, right? I haven't seen the season four package ... it contains a disclaimer from me as to why it's not in widescreen, that I wrote. It's on it, it comes with it. It's not a widescreen show. We shot it in a TV ratio, and I am very, very specific with the way I frame things. To arbitrarily throw – and I love widescreen, but Buffy was never a widescreen show. It was an intimate, TV-shaped show. To arbitrarily throw wider borders on it, to make it more cinematic when I very specifically framed it. Think of "The Body" – the episode "The Body"...

IGNFF: Right, which I've seen in widescreen and full frame...

WHEDON: How could you have seen it in widescreen?

IGNFF: The U.K. sets are in widescreen.

WHEDON: Good. See, that is not the way I framed it. That's not the way it was meant to be seen, and therefore that's not the way I shot it. I'm preserving what I shot. The DVD is there to preserve what we made, for eternity. What we made, very specifically, was a certain shape. So I'm sure there'll be widescreen copies and there'll be arguments about what's better, but I'm not interested in – and I mean, I love widescreen. I'm a widescreen fanatic, when something's wide. When it's not, then I want to see it the way it was meant to be seen.

IGNFF: Were you not consulted for the U.K. sets?

WHEDON: No, I was not. Buffy was never widescreen. Angel is, Firefly was – and was not aired that way. That'll be nice, that it can be shown the way it was meant to be seen. For me, Buffy is a different animal.

[EddieLarkin]

Whether Angel works better or not isn't really the point. The fact that when you expand the frame only slightly you reveal things like Angel punching empty space and grabbing non-existant co-stars demonstrates that the creators did not pay attention to the mise-en-scene beyond the 4:3 area.

If it looks better it is merely coincidence because of the different style of sets and shooting Geoff describes. To retain the original intent, it must be 4:3, for the same reasons Whedon describes above regarding Buffy. Whedon does not describe Angel being in 16:9 from Season 1; he just describes the show in general. Season 1 clearly isn't even protected for widescreen, so he cannot be talking about it, but rather just Seasons 3-5.

edit: When did that interview take place? 2003/04? He refers to Firefly in the past tense and Angel in the present. When he says Angel is in widescreen, he's presumably referring to the then currently airing Season 4/5.

[naelst]

What Whedon wanted to show is what I want to see. That's all.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by GenPion

If the entirity of Star Trek: The Next Generation can get 4:3 Blu-ray releases why not Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Just because they have an opened up version of the show it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to release it that way.

Maybe the 16:9 version will air on TV syndication and streaming while home media will get Blu-ray releases in the original aspect ratio of 4:3 as Whedon wanted.

The difference with Buffy is that the genie's out of the bottle re: 16:9, because those versions were what originally aired outside of the US (from S4 onwards) and were also what was released on DVD in most countries outside of the US.

So what will Fox do? Separate 4:3 and 16:9 Blu-rays like the DVDs? I don't think that'll happen for the reason of simple economics: unlike the days of PAL and NTSC which necessitated separate releases by default, Blu-ray's 24fps standard has meant that studios can produce one disc to suit entire continents, if not the world, so I think there'll only be one SKU.

As for TNG, they had the grace to include that featurette on the Blu-ray which explained why it's not (and could never be) widescreen and so the calls for that to be 16:9 died out pretty quickly and have not resurfaced since. Even cropping it to something like 1.60 simply doesn't work, unlike, say, Twin Peaks which to my eyes has obvious widescreen protection top and bottom and works SUPERBLY in 1.60.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Whether Angel works better or not isn't really the point. The fact that when you expand the frame only slightly you reveal things like Angel punching empty space and grabbing non-existant co-stars demonstrates that the creators did not pay attention to the mise-en-scene beyond the 4:3 area.

If it looks better it is merely coincidence because of the different style of sets and shooting Geoff describes. To retain the original intent, it must be 4:3, for the same reasons Whedon describes above regarding Buffy. Whedon does not describe Angel being in 16:9 from Season 1; he just describes the show in general. Season 1 clearly isn't even protected for widescreen, so he cannot be talking about it.

Oh I think you are probably right, but I remain unsure about what the situation was with Season 2, that's all. Im more inclined to think it is also 4x3 but I haven't seen the show in a while and don't own the DVDs anymore

[Geoff D]

That reminds me, I'd better sell my Angel and Buffy DVDs. I love the shows but I haven't dusted off those discs in several years, and with the prospect of HD versions on the horizon it's time to give the DVDs the old heave-ho.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Oh I think you are probably right, but I remain unsure about what the situation was with Season 2, that's all. Im more inclined to think it is also 4x3 but I haven't seen the show in a while and don't own the DVDs anymore

All I know for sure is that there are blatant "goofs" in Season 2 like the ones posted here for Season 1 (though maybe not as frequent; certainly Buffy is much much worse). Once you move to Season 3, those goofs disappear.

I hope if Fox do intend to go with 16:9, at least with Buffy, that people will take Whedon's statement that he wants to preserve the show for "all eternity" in 4:3 seriously, and petition against such a release. I hope Whedon is still interested in the show enough to do the same.

[NL197]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

No one is pointing out "goofs". These aren't "goofs". No one goofed! These errors are simply a result of disrespectful people presenting these shows incorrectly. They're the ones to be laughed at, it's their stupidity and fetishisation of widescreen that makes the shows look silly, not the original creators. Those caps are very similar to what you get when watching Buffy in widescreen.

Any errors that pop up in the proper 4x3 versions, I agree, it's just nitpicking and a non-issue. But adding errors to the show by insisting it is presented incorrectly should be pointed out and derided.

Maybe it's because it's early and I'm very tired, but are you saying that since I posted those screencaps I am the one who is being disrepectful, should be laughed at and derided? I'm honestly not sure.

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Oh I think you are probably right, but I remain unsure about what the situation was with Season 2, that's all. Im more inclined to think it is also 4x3 but I haven't seen the show in a while and don't own the DVDs anymore

The proper aspect ratio for ANGEL Season 2 is 1.33:1, or 4:3.

1.78:1 (16:9) is incorrect, though was allowed for Region 1 DVD release in 2003.

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

All I know for sure is that there are blatant "goofs" in Season 2 like the ones posted here for Season 1 (though maybe not as frequent; certainly Buffy is much much worse). Once you move to Season 3, those goofs disappear.

I hope if Fox do intend to go with 16:9, at least with Buffy, that people will take Whedon's statement that he wants to preserve the show for "all eternity" in 4:3 seriously, and petition against such a release. I hope Whedon is still interested in the show enough to do the same.

There are not as many, correct. However there are plenty of examples where the actors are dead center of the frame in addition to light stands and crew members, and one scene transition being in 4:3 in the episode "Dead End" sandwiched in between two 16:9 scenes.

I've no doubt if Buffy appears on Blu-ray, it will be 4:3. Honestly the only property Whedon doesn't seem nearly as invested in is ANGEL, but Buffy, Firefly and even Dollhouse are his babies for sure. At least that's the impression I've been left with for almost 12 years now.

[theprestige85]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

No one is pointing out "goofs". These aren't "goofs". No one goofed! These errors are simply a result of disrespectful people presenting these shows incorrectly. They're the ones to be laughed at, it's their stupidity and fetishisation of widescreen that makes the shows look silly, not the original creators. Those caps are very similar to what you get when watching Buffy in widescreen.

Any errors that pop up in the proper 4x3 versions, I agree, it's just nitpicking and a non-issue. But adding errors to the show by insisting it is presented incorrectly should be pointed out and derided.



It was anamorphic on the UK DVD. The one upside to those sets.

Goofs, errors, whatever, i'm just sick and tired of people showing why the stretched screen compromises the image. We get it, it's the wrong aspect ratio and its silly to have crew members at the edge of the screen and I agree, but why continuously draw attention to it is all i'm saying.


And those caps aren't similar because you are a different state when you're watching the show, or at least you should be. Those things are a lot harder to see when one is invested in the story.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by NL197

Maybe it's because it's early and I'm very tired, but are you saying that since I posted those screencaps I am the one who is being disrepectful, should be laughed at and derided? I'm honestly not sure.

There are not as many, correct. However there are plenty of examples where the actors are dead center of the frame in addition to light stands and crew members, and one scene transition being in 4:3 in the episode "Dead End" sandwiched in between two 16:9 scenes.

Yes, you must be tired. I'm saying that the people who force widescreen on the shows and put them out for fans to consume should be laughed at and derided, as should the fans that insist on it. Where did you source the caps?

We're in complete agreement on everything when it comes to this issue.

Originally Posted by theprestige85

Goofs, errors, whatever, i'm just sick and tired of people showing why the stretched screen compromises the image. We get it, it's the wrong aspect ratio and its silly to have crew members at the edge of the screen and I agree, but why continuously draw attention to it is all i'm saying

To demonstrate why it's wrong so that less people will natter Fox to release these in 16:9. How is that a bad thing?

[theprestige85]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

To demonstrate why it's bad so that less people will natter Fox to release these in 16:9. How is that a bad thing?

I think most people would want it in it's original aspect ratio. Theres only a select few who wouldn't.

[EddieLarkin]

This thread at least seems mostly to consist of people wanting it in widescreen or people who recognise the issue but prefer a compromise, rather than the dreaded 4x3. When the DVDs were released in 4x3 Whedon had to release a statement to help quell the anger! Unfortunately, most people do want this in widescreen.

[NL197]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yes, you must be tired. I'm saying that the people who force widescreen on the shows and put them out for fans to consume should be laughed at and derided, as should the fans that insist on it. Where did you source the caps?

We're in complete agreement on everything when it comes to this issue.



To demonstrate why it's wrong so that less people will natter Fox to release these in 16:9. How is that a bad thing?

Okay thanks. I did misread that then, or rather misinterpret it.

I took the screencaps myself, since I had purchased season 1 of ANGEL on the Canadian iTunes Store. I purchased it (for about $40) because I knew I could strip it of its viewing restrictions which prevent iTunes video from being played on anything but an Apple device (a process which is probably pretty well known by now by fans of Apple who want to play their content without relying solely on Apple TV or some other proprietary hardware). I ended up doing the same for Buffy shortly after...damn that was pricey, but worth it.
Happy to have the "Previously On" recaps back as well for most of it unlike the US DVDs.

I ran the whole season through that process and burned the episodes to disc with my DVD-converted-to-mp4 backups of both series on BD-Rs. That way I can playback the entire show on my PS3, computer, anything without using my original DVDs in their proper broadcast order of both shows overlapping. Even included low-res WB / UPN episode trailers from old fan sites for effect.

The DVD sets themselves I gave to a friend...those old over-sized digipak monstrosities that unfolded. Ridiculous packaging, but at times very pretty artwork especially for ANGEL season 2, which had that awesome black and blue storm cloud look to the whole package. Buying those things from 2001 (with Buffy season 1) to 2005 (with ANGEL season 5) was a big deal each time. A lot of care went into the presentation of those sets whereas now you go into a store and see either show on the shelf, and it's a standard DVD case with none of the flair. Sad, but more practical.

The resolution for season 1 is only 640x360 from iTunes but on a TV it looks fairly decent in motion compared to still screencaps. I just used Media Player Classic, paused the episodes at those points and saved the images.

[EddieLarkin]

So what I meant was, it's iTunes that should be derided for insulting their customers by providing a flawed version, not you for taking some caps!

Btw, if you play your files in VLC rather than MPC you can add 4:3 bars to the image, and bring all your episodes back to how they should be seen. I wonder if there's a way to burn the bars into the file, so they can be put onto disc?

[NL197]

I've never been a fan of VLC but I do remember that was a feature, but I'm thinking in order to permanently put borders on there, it has to be done with a video editing program.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by theprestige85

I think most people would want it in it's original aspect ratio. Theres only a select few who wouldn't.

As much as I would like to think this is true, I think the vast majority of people, especially those who don't come onto film forums etc would want widescreen or don't really care. Unfortunate, but sadly more than likely. The clamour for widescreen and the need for Whedon to put a note in the S4 box says everything.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

So what I meant was, it's iTunes that should be derided for insulting their customers by providing a flawed version, not you for taking some caps!

Btw, if you play your files in VLC rather than MPC you can add 4:3 bars to the image, and bring all your episodes back to how they should be seen. I wonder if there's a way to burn the bars into the file, so they can be put onto disc?

Originally Posted by NL197

I've never been a fan of VLC but I do remember that was a feature, but I'm thinking in order to permanently put borders on there, it has to be done with a video editing program.

You'd have to make back-ups of your DVDs and use a program to crop the results but if you have a decent size PC monitor and VLC player it maybe preferable to watch them on your computer. The cropping isn't that difficult you just need to know how many pixels need the chop. It's useful for your non-anamorphic DVDs too, you can cut the black bars to save zooming-in but obviously you don't get the resolution anamorphic DVDs have.

[blahsi]

I wouldn't mind having both versions available in HD. Streaming and syndication can have widescreen and discs can retain the 4x3 ratio. I don't like the heavy cropping happening in season 1. If too much of the image is gone it doesn't look as awesome. I'm open minded. After watching the TNG doc I was glad they didn't mess with it with the special effects simply not allowing for such a presentation.

As for Buffy and Angel, I hardly noticed the framing errors so the widescreen versions didn't bug me. Some of the framing was obvious when everyone was tightly grouped and a bunch of dead space was on the side, so I understood that much. I just don't try to nitpick the details unless they look strange, like Buffy slapping air in a season 7 episode and it's right in my face.

I don't dismiss Whedon's intentions. But, what's been done cannot be undone. Widescreen versions were released and it appears the studio has embraced these as the ones they are releasing now in HD. As long as they paid attention to props, people on set, etc. perhaps they will reframe so they can no longer be seen. They did it with Friends so I don't know why they couldn't here.

I will enjoy Buffy equally in widescreen or full frame. I'm just excited to see it in HD!