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Old 08-28-2014, 06:56 PM   #581
EV1L EV1L is offline
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Originally Posted by willbfree View Post
Is the darker, more blue, original version what the makers of the show intended? Or was that just how bad the printing of this show looked? The red light is what they lit the scene with (that's in the Bronze, isn't it?), and maybe they were disappointed when the red became barely a gleam on Buffy's hair. We just don't know. And why did they put those people in the background if they can't be seen?
That's why in remasters and etc should be involved creators or at least consulted with them. Only they know how atmosphere supposed to be and how much detail in background was visible as intended. But typically that are done in previous media as DVD on so on. Buffy was not that old when they transferred it in NTSC DVD with consulting.

Typically Buffy series is set in the night so naturally there should be more blue tones than pink. With this color alteration cemetery scenes at night will look kinda funny.

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Originally Posted by Buffdale View Post
Do not be offended, it's just my opinion! But I don't understand at all how you can love seeing heads that are cut, seeing Buffy who is ridiculous when she is next to taller people (Angel, for example) etc.
I would add that the quality of an image (and its frame/aspect ratio) reflects, in the first place, the HISTORY of the series itself. It represents everything that the series is (a series late 90 '/ early 2000), was supposed to be (a series of replacement), and the difficulties raised by an entire team to deal with them! I love the series for what it is (quoted above), not for what current technologies want it to be (16:9, with no grain).
I have no objection for 16:9 when they not cropping but opening. In S01 this is not imposible with buffy without cropping. From S02 this can be done (with scene mistakes as they never as intended for widescreen and was not protected for it).

Also i have no problem for 4:3

Last edited by EV1L; 08-28-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:12 PM   #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EV1L View Post
That's why in remasters and etc should be involved creators or at least consulted with them. Only they know how atmosphere supposed to be and how much detail in background was visible as intended. But typically that are done in previous media as DVD on so on. Buffy was not that old when they transferred it in NTSC DVD with consulting.

Typically Buffy series is set in the night so naturally there should be more blue tones than pink. With this color alteration cemetery scenes at night will look kinda funny.



I have no objection for 16:9 when they not cropping but opening. In S01 this is not imposible with buffy without cropping. From S02 this can be done (with scene mistakes as they never as intended for widescreen and was not protected for it).

Also i have no problem for 4:3
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you! I'd like to see seasons 2-7 in 16:9 but season 1 in 4:3 (zooming in/cropping is just WRONG! And it also loses some quality when they do that.). I know Joss intended for the picture in the entire series to be 4:3, but in my opinion it just feels too... claustrophobic. I loved watching Friends in widescreen, as an example.
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:17 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Adoken View Post
but in my opinion it just feels too... claustrophobic.
Is some episodes like The Body that's was intended purpose with close framing.
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:48 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EV1L View Post
I have no objection for 16:9 when they not cropping but opening. In S01 this is not imposible with buffy without cropping. From S02 this can be done (with scene mistakes as they never as intended for widescreen and was not protected for it).

Also i have no problem for 4:3
I'm used to the 16:9 from season 4, as I live in Europe. If the defects are corrected, obviously I can accept it. But only if we do not lose height (or a little) ! The first season in 16:9 is an atrocity.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:26 PM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffdale View Post
I'm used to the 16:9 from season 4, as I live in Europe. If the defects are corrected, obviously I can accept it. But only if we do not lose height (or a little) ! The first season in 16:9 is an atrocity.
You know I was used to watching films as 4x3 on TV for a long time like Star Wars and, but I quickly got over it when i realised what the intended AR was This argument that Europe had it as 16x9 and that's what we are used to makes little sense to me. Seasons 2 and 3 were always shown as 4x3 in Europe yet now some are arguing for a 16:9 release for those because its possible ??

I find it fascinating that the cropping is such a travesty worth fighting for and not simply accepting it as "better than nothing" yet the pro 4:3 argument for the whole series is dismissed and the best argument that can be made is "at least we're getting it in HD."

The whole thing is a debacle on TV and the best thing that can be done is simply to not watch it. Or is it worth accepting the compromise of a whole series 16:9 release in the hopes that Seasons 4-7 will be worth it ? (Despite the best seasons of course being 2 and 3)

The one thing I think is pretty clear is that this will not be likely released like this in Bluray. Seems to me like the current trend is going to be for shows to be readied for broadcast as 16x9 releases so they can license them, but companies will hedge their bets for now and remaster in both ARs.

Last edited by simonynwa; 08-28-2014 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:58 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by simonynwa View Post

(Despite the best seasons of course being 2 and 3)
You can make a case for season 5 being up there with 2 and 3.
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:01 PM   #587
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http://television.thedigitalfix.com/...mile-time.html

Tough one to call but this was a double whammy with this and A Hole in the World
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:45 PM   #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonynwa View Post
You know I was used to watching films as 4x3 on TV for a long time like Star Wars and, but I quickly got over it when i realised what the intended AR was This argument that Europe had it as 16x9 and that's what we are used to makes little sense to me. Seasons 2 and 3 were always shown as 4x3 in Europe yet now some are arguing for a 16:9 release for those because its possible ??

I find it fascinating that the cropping is such a travesty worth fighting for and not simply accepting it as "better than nothing" yet the pro 4:3 argument for the whole series is dismissed and the best argument that can be made is "at least we're getting it in HD."

The whole thing is a debacle on TV and the best thing that can be done is simply to not watch it. Or is it worth accepting the compromise of a whole series 16:9 release in the hopes that Seasons 4-7 will be worth it ? (Despite the best seasons of course being 2 and 3)

The one thing I think is pretty clear is that this will not be likely released like this in Bluray. Seems to me like the current trend is going to be for shows to be readied for broadcast as 16x9 releases so they can license them, but companies will hedge their bets for now and remaster in both ARs.
I apologize in advance if I do not understand everything -or anything at all ha ha- (English isn't my native language).
In short, what you say is that you do not understand why we are fighting for the first season in 4:3, since I'd be willing to see the rest of the series in 16:9 ?
If that's right, in this case I would answer that... I'd be very curious to see the entire series in 4:3. The problem is that I'm sure it will not happen. I do not think Fox Europe would risk to propose 4:3 after ten years of 16:9...

However, the first three seasons could be proposed in the original format. And above that, the way it's desired by Joss Whedon ! Why ? Because we never saw those three seasons in widescreen. But still, the second and third seasons (especially the third) seem to be easily available in 16:9 without truncating the image. And, unfortunately, I think we can not do anything because a majority wants the widescreen. But the first season is a different story. They are forced to change dramatically this season in order to offer it in 16:9. It seems to me that this is the only one where we can make ourselves heard.

I'm not sure to be clear, especially in a foreign language ... If I could choose, I would prefer the 4:3 version. If you make me choose between 16:9 for the entire series, and nothing at all, I take the 16:9 version. Reluctantly. But at one condition: that the rest is perfect. And it is far from being the case from what we have seen so far!

I hope I wasn't too off-topic, and my message is understandable.

Last edited by Buffdale; 08-28-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:07 PM   #589
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"Yeah, I absolutely agree with you! I'd like to see seasons 2-7 in 16:9 but season 1 in 4:3"

Same here.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:34 PM   #590
Nico Darko Nico Darko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willbfree View Post


Is the darker, more blue, original version what the makers of the show intended? Or was that just how bad the printing of this show looked? The red light is what they lit the scene with (that's in the Bronze, isn't it?), and maybe they were disappointed when the red became barely a gleam on Buffy's hair. We just don't know. And why did they put those people in the background if they can't be seen?

I think it's pretty safe to say that the colors on the dvd is what the makers of the show intended. Joss Whedon made a dvd commentary on the first 2 episodes, and that's what he says :


Michael Gershman has been our DP on this show since the beginning. He’s got an extraordinary eye. Makes things very beautiful . Really gave the show a lot more depth than it might have had. Most science fiction horror shows tend to be very flat, very awkwardly lit. Very blue, very distancing. Mike makes a very lush palette with a lot of blacks and a lot of depth, and can make something both eerie and beautiful at the same time, really well. I think that’s shown to great advantage here where they’re standing on the balcony.

We shot the show on 16mm as well, which doesn’t have the depth of 35mm. It’s a much smaller negative, has a lot more grain. And the whole time we were shooting on 16, which was the first two seasons, nobody ever knew it because Mike did such a great job.



It's pretty obvious he intended for the show to look a certain way, and the HD remaster totally dismiss what the cinematographer was trying to do.

Last edited by Nico Darko; 08-28-2014 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:01 PM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico Darko View Post
I think it's pretty safe to say that the colors on the dvd is what the makers of the shows intended. Joss Whedon made a dvd commentary on the first 2 episodes, and that's what he says :


Michael Gershman has been our DP on this show since the beginning. Heís got an extraordinary eye. Makes things very beautiful . Really gave the show a lot more depth than it might have had. Most science fiction horror shows tend to be very flat, very awkwardly lit. Very blue, very distancing. Mike makes a very lush palette with a lot of blacks and a lot of depth, and can make something both eerie and beautiful at the same time, really well. I think thatís shown to great advantage here where theyíre standing on the balcony.

We shot the show on 16mm as well, which doesnít have the depth of 35mm. Itís a much smaller negative, has a lot more grain. And the whole time we were shooting on 16, which was the first two seasons, nobody ever knew it because Mike did such a great job.



It's pretty obvious he intended for the show to look a certain way, and the HD remaster totally dismiss what the cinematographer was trying to do.
Nico Darko, you're great in times of crisis ! Ha ha.
DVD commentaries can be very useful for this kind of things...
So we have an answer. If it is not identical to what was wanted, in any case, the DVD version is closer to what was desired than the one presented in HD.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:11 PM   #592
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Are people who want to throw the show's original composition to the wind seriously getting their panties in a bunch over a perceived colour change? C'mon guys, if you want this to be a faithful rendering of how people like Michael Gershman shot the show, then you can't have it in 16:9, cropped or opened up, for any episode bar one. Simple as that.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:17 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
Are people who want to throw the show's original composition to the wind seriously getting their panties in a bunch over a perceived colour change? C'mon guys, if you want this to be a faithful rendering of how people like Michael Gershman shot the show, then you can't have it in 16:9, cropped or opened up, for any episode bar one. Simple as that.
I agree. I'm strongly against the 16:9, but I can learn to live with it (if opened up). Insane use of DNR and obviously wrong colors, that I cannot accept.


And please e-mail Fox (as well as Pivot). If they're responsible, they should hear from us :

http://www.foxstudios.com/request.html

Last edited by Nico Darko; 08-28-2014 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:25 PM   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
Are people who want to throw the show's original composition to the wind seriously getting their panties in a bunch over a perceived colour change? C'mon guys, if you want this to be a faithful rendering of how people like Michael Gershman shot the show, then you can't have it in 16:9, cropped or opened up, for any episode bar one. Simple as that.
A little earlier, I spoke about that. So I do not feel affected by your comment. But to repeat the things : I prefer the 4:3 aspect ratio. But it seems impossible, especially for seasons 4-7 (because they are available for 10 years this way).

Nico : I'll do it now !
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:04 AM   #595
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They've not been 16:9 in America, which is the primary market and the place where the Blu-ray will be produced. The creators want it in 4:3. Despite people claiming that you just can't release a show in 4:3 these days, most old shows in fact are. The Avengers, Twin Peaks, Twilight Zone, Star Trek, Honeymooners, Andy Griffith Show, I Love Lucy, Batman, Little House on the Prairie, Shogun, plenty of older anime shows... All released in 4:3. Plenty of people buy them.

Releasing Buffy in 4:3 is far from impossible.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:06 AM   #596
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I'm usually all for preserving things the way that they were so I should be pro 4:3. However, I'm really interested to see the 16:9 versions. I know the top and bottom may be severed a little but I really don't mind. I'm a huge fan of the Wonder Woman TV Series from the 1970's starring Lynda Carter and it was 4:3. The DVD releases are also 4:3. However, this year I discovered that the whole series was on iTunes in HD and its 16:9. There is more footage at the side of the screen and the top and bottom are cut a little. I have to say I much prefer watching the 16:9 versions and the quality is really great. This is why I'm so anxious to see the Pivot versions of Buffy! Still nothing online?
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:19 AM   #597
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If they would have never been released in 16:9, I would gladly take the show in 4:3 like it's meant to be seen. But watching seasons 4-7 in 16:9 on Netflix and seeing just how many episodes I enjoyed more in 16:9 makes me want to own it on home video that way. And finding out that seasons 2 & 3 can also be in 16:9 with no cropping(and possibly season 1 judging by a few captures) makes that yearning even stronger.

Last edited by Drewbee87; 08-29-2014 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:25 AM   #598
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More comparisons. It's crazy how the HD actually looks more blurry than the dvd. Evil evil DNR.




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Old 08-29-2014, 12:39 AM   #599
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Here is the difference between the Wonder Woman apsect ratio. The first is the 4:3 DVD. The second is 1080p iTunes 16:9 version.

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Old 08-29-2014, 12:53 AM   #600
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Quote:
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Here is the difference between the Wonder Woman apsect ratio. The first is the 4:3 DVD. The second is 1080p iTunes 16:9 version.

Pfft, she's so much more sexy in the 4:3. The top of her bare chest and her lovely ringlets laying on it, all gone in the 16:9 version. You can keep it
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