Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is what I am talking about, Copper is Obsolete, Fiber is The Future! If your City or Community doesn't have it, it's time to move to a location that has Fiber.

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Master, people have to do their homework and not jump the gun. Talk to your Community or City, and tell them you want Fiber, you'd be surprised they may listen. My last two homes have had Fiber, so there is some truth to what I say.

Originally Posted by master gandhi

Just to be clear to others, bubba111 is not referring to me when he says "you", even though he quoted me here. He's talking about alchav21.

I don't advocate that people move for better internet. For many people, it's not that easy to move, so to do it for the sake of getting better internet speeds isn't enough of a good reason.

Even though I acknowledge digital's weaknesses, I still favor it over physical these days. It's convenient, it saves physical space, it's usually cheaper and you don't have to worry about disc rot. Those are some reasons off the top of my head that gets me to support digital so strongly.

This is what Master was talking about, I do advocate FTTH because this is the direction we are headed. Copper as an Infrastructure is over a Century Old, and that will change to Fiber. I'm Retired from AT&T, and set up some of the Fiber Networks in the Silicon Valley Decades ago. Google being one of the Companies there too. The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality. My last two homes have had FTTH, so this is high on my list of essentials. Of course everyone has to decide on their own priorities, but if a move is in your future you might put Fiber higher on that Essentials List.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is what Master was talking about, I do advocate FTTH because this is the direction we are headed. Copper as an Infrastructure is over a Century Old, and that will change to Fiber. I'm Retired from AT&T, and set up some of the Fiber Networks in the Silicon Valley Decades ago. Google being one of the Companies there too. The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality. My last two homes have had FTTH, so this is high on my list of essentials. Of course everyone has to decide on their own priorities, but if a move is in your future you might put Fiber higher on that Essentials List.

I use fibre (Virgin Media) and have done for quite a few years now, so can speak with some experience. It ain't there yet, and as for content and commitment to PQ it has some way to go. Love what the likes of Criterion & Arrow do can't see how providers can ever match that.....just not the interest of the masses and money.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is what Master was talking about, I do advocate FTTH because this is the direction we are headed. Copper as an Infrastructure is over a Century Old, and that will change to Fiber. I'm Retired from AT&T, and set up some of the Fiber Networks in the Silicon Valley Decades ago. Google being one of the Companies there too.

I live in Silicon Valley and work for a tech company that develops related technology. There is currently no residential FTTH anywhere in Silicon Valley. Google has delayed its fiber rollout and is exploring wireless broadband instead. FTTH is nice, but it's very expensive to dig up residential neighbourhoods to lay fiber.

The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality.

Coax cable can carry several hundred Mbit/s (DOCSIS 3.0). Plenty for Blu-ray like bitrates. But that doesn't change the fact that neither Vudu nor any other streaming service currently streams at that kind of bitrate. Only the UHD services are close if you take the efficiency gains from H.265 into account.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is what Master was talking about, I do advocate FTTH because this is the direction we are headed. Copper as an Infrastructure is over a Century Old, and that will change to Fiber. I'm Retired from AT&T, and set up some of the Fiber Networks in the Silicon Valley Decades ago. Google being one of the Companies there too. The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality. My last two homes have had FTTH, so this is high on my list of essentials. Of course everyone has to decide on their own priorities, but if a move is in your future you might put Fiber higher on that Essentials List.

Originally Posted by tele1962

I use fibre (Virgin Media) and have done for quite a few years now, so can speak with some experience. It ain't there yet, and as for content and commitment to PQ it has some way to go. Love what the likes of Criterion & Arrow do can't see how providers can ever match that.....just not the interest of the masses and money.

I'm talking about Fiber To The Home (FTTH) which is a lot different than FTTC, and Coax into your home. It looks like Virgin Media uses Fiber to your Neighborhood, then DOCSIS 3.0 to your home. You get some fast speeds, but nothing like GigaBit Fiber to the home.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality.

That's not the biggest weakness by a long shot. The biggest problems are DRM and a lack of a secondary market to make sure titles remain available without the studios' involvement. Improved technology will never make those problems go away because the studios don't want them to go away.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

That's not the biggest weakness by a long shot. The biggest problems are DRM and a lack of a secondary market to make sure titles remain available without the studios' involvement. Improved technology will never make those problems go away because the studios don't want them to go away.

So you think there are no DRM in Physical Discs, I guess you never tried to Back-up a DVD or Blu-ray. I know you are talking about the Disc it's self, but don't kid yourself the DRM is there. Digital Rights Management, that goes way back for all Software. People just don't want to pay full price for Content, they believe they should own that Disc and everything on it, which is far from the truth.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is what Master was talking about, I do advocate FTTH because this is the direction we are headed. Copper as an Infrastructure is over a Century Old, and that will change to Fiber. I'm Retired from AT&T, and set up some of the Fiber Networks in the Silicon Valley Decades ago. Google being one of the Companies there too. The biggest argument or weakness in Digital Streaming is BitRate, so with FTTH I say this can be increased to Blu-ray or UHD Disc Quality. My last two homes have had FTTH, so this is high on my list of essentials. Of course everyone has to decide on their own priorities, but if a move is in your future you might put Fiber higher on that Essentials List.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I live in Silicon Valley and work for a tech company that develops related technology. There is currently no residential FTTH anywhere in Silicon Valley. Google has delayed its fiber rollout and is exploring wireless broadband instead. FTTH is nice, but it's very expensive to dig up residential neighbourhoods to lay fiber.

Coax cable can carry several hundred Mbit/s (DOCSIS 3.0). Plenty for Blu-ray like bitrates. But that doesn't change the fact that neither Vudu nor any other streaming service currently streams at that kind of bitrate. Only the UHD services are close if you take the efficiency gains from H.265 into account.

Yes I know, Cupertino was suppose to be one of the areas to get Google Fiber, but like you said they didn't want their streets dug up. The Average Person is clueless, they think like you Copper Coax is plenty...GigaFiber is overkill. For today you are probably right, but what about tomorrow for Streaming HDTV, UHD Movies, and Back-ups to The Cloud for Pictures and Data. GigaFiber is looking pretty good now, and Wireless 5g can fill in the gaps but it will be pricy with Caps.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

So you think there are no DRM in Physical Discs, I guess you never tried to Back-up a DVD or Blu-ray. I know you are talking about the Disc it's self, but don't kid yourself the DRM is there. Digital Rights Management, that goes way back for all Software. People just don't want to pay full price for Content, they believe they should own that Disc and everything on it, which is far from the truth.

I differentiate between online DRM and offline copy protection. The DRM on a disc prevents you from making copies but all discs will work on all players without any involvement from the studios after they press the disc. As long as I can find a working player all discs will continue to be playable. With hundreds of millions of Blu-ray players in existence I doubt that will ever be difficult, even long after Blu-ray has been discontinued.

The DRM on a downloaded file means it will only work on an authorized player. Therefore if your player breaks the file is totally useless, replacing the player won't help in the slightest. You can't continue to use any of your files without the continued support from the content providers.

And streaming is obviously much worse: you have to get the content from the content providers every single time you watch it. Once they decide to not offer it anymore you'll have no way of watching it.

If you want to call it all DRM that's fine, but that doesn't make it all equal. I don't care if I own the content, but no one should be able to take it away.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes I know, Cupertino was suppose to be one of the areas to get Google Fiber, but like you said they didn't want their streets dug up. The Average Person is clueless, they think like you Copper Coax is plenty...GigaFiber is overkill. For today you are probably right, but what about tomorrow for Streaming HDTV, UHD Movies, and Back-ups to The Cloud for Pictures and Data. GigaFiber is looking pretty good now, and Wireless 5g can fill in the gaps but it will be pricy with Caps.

I think even the average person really wanted google fiber. Once they said you can replace Comcast that would be enough for most people.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by veritas

I think even the average person really wanted google fiber. Once they said you can replace Comcast that would be enough for most people.

That is true, getting rid of Comcast would be great. On the other hand, Google probably datamines everything you do on their network for advertising purposes. It would be nice if there was real competition including more smaller ISPs rather than just giant, quasi-monopolistic conglomerates.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by veritas

I think even the average person really wanted google fiber. Once they said you can replace Comcast that would be enough for most people.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

That is true, getting rid of Comcast would be great. On the other hand, Google probably datamines everything you do on their network for advertising purposes. It would be nice if there was real competition including more smaller ISPs rather than just giant, quasi-monopolistic conglomerates.

Like I said the Average Person is Clueless when it comes to Facilities for Internet. Here on a Tech Site people are a little more knowledgeable, and they kind of know Coax, Twisted Copper, and Fiber. The thing is that they still look for competition and the lowest prices, that just doesn't work anymore for the Fiber Providers. I have a Local ISP CSN that provides me with FTTH, but it's in a new area and they had a hard time establishing because of funding and people not knowing about Fiber. The large Companies like AT&T, Google, and Verizon have the deep pockets but even they have limits if people don't buy their service that's why deployments stop. So you have to be proactive with your City or Community, but if no one listens or it's an older area you may have to move to get Fiber.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

So you think there are no DRM in Physical Discs, I guess you never tried to Back-up a DVD or Blu-ray. I know you are talking about the Disc it's self, but don't kid yourself the DRM is there. Digital Rights Management, that goes way back for all Software. People just don't want to pay full price for Content, they believe they should own that Disc and everything on it, which is far from the truth.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

I differentiate between online DRM and offline copy protection. The DRM on a disc prevents you from making copies but all discs will work on all players without any involvement from the studios after they press the disc. As long as I can find a working player all discs will continue to be playable. With hundreds of millions of Blu-ray players in existence I doubt that will ever be difficult, even long after Blu-ray has been discontinued.

The DRM on a downloaded file means it will only work on an authorized player. Therefore if your player breaks the file is totally useless, replacing the player won't help in the slightest. You can't continue to use any of your files without the continued support from the content providers.

And streaming is obviously much worse: you have to get the content from the content providers every single time you watch it. Once they decide to not offer it anymore you'll have no way of watching it.

If you want to call it all DRM that's fine, but that doesn't make it all equal. I don't care if I own the content, but no one should be able to take it away.

DRM is both for Disc and Digital, the Studios don't want Piracy. There was another survey and almost half of the people don't care if the Studios lose money. My biggest complaint with Blu-ray was sitting through all the Junk before the Movie would start. When I did my Back-ups I would take all that Junk off so the Movie would start right off. This is what I like about Digital too, you don't have to wait for all that Junk. If you have a good Provider like Vudu your Movies are there when ever you want them, no one takes them away. With UV they are backed up on several Servers with different Providers.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

DRM is both for Disc and Digital, the Studios don't want Piracy. There was another survey and almost half of the people don't care if the Studios lose money. My biggest complaint with Blu-ray was sitting through all the Junk before the Movie would start. When I did my Back-ups I would take all that Junk off so the Movie would start right off. This is what I like about Digital too, you don't have to wait for all that Junk. If you have a good Provider like Vudu your Movies are there when ever you want them, no one takes them away. With UV they are backed up on several Servers with different Providers.

physical products and digital products have different levels of drm for example star craft even when downloaded is so drm locked that the game is unplayable without a internet connection to talk to the publishers server at least once a month. If blizzard goes out of business or turns off support for the game then they will effectively brick all copy's of the game by simply not running a server. Digital copies have a similar level of drm that locks them to individual devices unless you have a provider as a middle man to re download the movie to a new device. Physical drm isn't to bad as the process for discs has been streamlined enough that you probably wont even notice its their under normal use.

The drm on digital is like a dead man switch. By doing nothing and just shutting down a few servers the studios effectively brick the digital copies. physical copies don't have any kill switch because of drm if the studios want to brick blu rays they need to destroy every blu ray player in the world.


If you look at the fine print vudu is not a very good provider long term. They have it written in that you have a license and they reserve the right to charge you for even streaming/ downloading those films you licensed after 2 years from the date of redemption. They also said they have no liability to maintain streams for customers 2 years from redemption and while you can keep any digital copys that are device locked they are under no obligation to offer further digital copies or to help you move them to new computers. None of this is good and when you include the drm it means vudus planning to turn your purchases into a option for a discounted rental at some point in the future.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

DRM is both for Disc and Digital, the Studios don't want Piracy. There was another survey and almost half of the people don't care if the Studios lose money. My biggest complaint with Blu-ray was sitting through all the Junk before the Movie would start. When I did my Back-ups I would take all that Junk off so the Movie would start right off. This is what I like about Digital too, you don't have to wait for all that Junk. If you have a good Provider like Vudu your Movies are there when ever you want them, no one takes them away. With UV they are backed up on several Servers with different Providers.

UV and Vudu's backups are irrelevant. I'm not worried that they are going to accidentally lose files. The concern is that they will deliberately take them away or lose the rights and not legally be able to provide access.

It's also not just my collection I'm concerned about. Even if the digital providers continue to provide access to every title you've purchased (which there is no guarantee of) you still have no way of purchasing removed titles. For removed titles that never got physical releases the only way to get them is piracy.

By supporting digital you're doing one of two things:
1) You're supporting the studios' right to make any title unavailable.
2) You're relying on piracy to ensure titles remain available.

I support physical because it gives money to the studios (unlike piracy) but doesn't give the studios full control over distribution (unlike digital).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by veritas

Digital copies have a similar level of drm that locks them to individual devices unless you have a provider as a middle man to re download the movie to a new device.

That is not the case for iTunes. You can freely move the downloaded files between different devices or stream them over the local network. You also don't need any kind of online connection to play them after the initial authorization of the device. One of the main reasons why I prefer iTunes.

[Canada]

Physical media always, it's nice to have a digital copy but that is always secondary for me.

[DNSK]

Originally Posted by Canada

Physical media always, it's nice to have a digital copy but that is always secondary for me.

I completely agree! You can't always trust digital, but you can always trust physical. I've seen too many people have problems or lose their media through digital.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by veritas

Digital copies have a similar level of drm that locks them to individual devices unless you have a provider as a middle man to re download the movie to a new device.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

That is not the case for iTunes. You can freely move the downloaded files between different devices or stream them over the local network. You also don't need any kind of online connection to play them after the initial authorization of the device. One of the main reasons why I prefer iTunes.

As you stated the devices need to be authorized. If something happened to your iTunes account then all your files would be useless once your authorized devices stopped working. You can't copy them to a new device without Apple, just a device you've already authorized.

I can play any Blu-ray on any Blu-ray player with no internet connection whatsoever. There is no authorization, everything is interchangeable. I fully expect that many of my Blu-ray players will break during my lifetime but with hundreds of millions of Blu-ray players made I'll never have any trouble getting a replacement, even long after all support has been dropped for the format.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

As you stated the devices need to be authorized. If something happened to your iTunes account then all your files would be useless once your authorized devices stopped working. You can't copy them to a new device without Apple, just a device you've already authorized.

I think it's more likely to get hit by a bus, in which case I won't care anymore.

Seriously, I don't worry about far fetched what-ifs. And even if "something happened" to my iTunes account, as long as I have a single computer with an authorized iTunes, I can always strip the DRM.

I can play any Blu-ray on any Blu-ray player with no internet connection whatsoever.

Unless your house is flooded or burns down and all your discs are destroyed.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Seriously, I don't worry about far fetched what-ifs. And even if "something happened" to my iTunes account, as long as I have a single computer with an authorized iTunes, I can always strip the DRM.

If you have backups of all your downloaded files with the DRM removed then what's the advantage over physical media? You can just as easily remove DRM from Blu-ray discs and have those files in the same convenient places that you put your downloaded files.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Unless your house is flooded or burns down and all your discs are destroyed.

All of my physical media is replaceable. My backups are the thousands of other people who still own working copies. But if a digital-only title is removed then no one can get a copy.

It's not my collection I'm concerned about. Everyone should continue to have access to every title. The used market ensures this happens with physical media. But digital media has no equivalent to a used market, if a title is no longer offered by the content owners then it becomes unavailable to everyone.