Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

Eventually bandwidth will exceed current discs. New codecs are coming out all the time.

I hope my discs last a long time too, but I'm not so sure about drives lasting that long. I'm already having a hard time finding good condition VHS players, laserdisc players, or even CD drives. My old consoles need adapters to work with modern TVs. I worry about their drives failing. I could hoard all that hardware, but there's got to be a fair balance.

The purpose of new codecs is to get more quality out of the same, or even less, bandwidth. Using more bandwidth costs more money, both for the streaming provider and the customer and no one likes higher costs.

I have not had any problems with my older gear...yet. My VCR and laserdisc player still work and there are plenty of adapters available to easily connect them to my TV. I have very little media remaining that even requires that I keep my VCR and laserdisc player. I have backed up all of my rare laserdiscs and tapes to DVD media anyways, but I like retaining the source.

None of my DVD or blu-ray players have failed, either, and it is still easy to buy more brand new ones should I desire to do so. They are very affordable besides.

If I were to be concerned about any disc player becoming scarce it would be 4K disc players as they don't have the market saturation enjoyed by their predecessors. There are also fewer makes and models of them. If I were to stockpile any device, it would be these.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The purpose of new codecs is to get more quality out of the same, or even less, bandwidth. Using more bandwidth costs more money, both for the streaming provider and the customer and no one likes higher costs.

I have not had any problems with my older gear...yet. My VCR and laserdisc player still work and there are plenty of adapters available to easily connect them to my TV. I have very little media remaining that even requires that I keep my VCR and laserdisc player. I have backed up all of my rare laserdiscs and tapes to DVD media anyways, but I like retaining the source.

None of my DVD or blu-ray players have failed, either, and it is still easy to buy more brand new ones should I desire to do so. They are very affordable besides.

If I were to be concerned about any disc player becoming scarce it would be 4K disc players as they don't have the consumer saturation enjoyed by their predecessors. There are also fewer makes and models of them. If I were to stockpile any device, it would be these.

Even then, in a emergency, consoles will last for a long time. My PS3 is still going strong for example. Both current consoles have UHD playback.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

2022 - not that far into the future. That's when VVC encoded 8K content will begin to show up. And yes, it will surpass the quality of a 4K disc. Technology marches on, it doesn't end with what was implemented back in February, 2016.

I look forward to the “is it real 8k or fake” websites then.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

I look forward to the “is it real 8k or fake” websites then.

They will join their brethren: “is it real 4k or fake”

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

2022 - not that far into the future. That's when VVC encoded 8K content will begin to show up. And yes, it will surpass the quality of a 4K disc. Technology marches on, it doesn't end with what was implemented back in February, 2016.

And what 8K content will we be streaming? Stuff like this?

Cutest Kittens Cats in 8K UHD - YouTube

What studios have committed to providing 8K streams of movies and TV shows? None that I know of. Even now, digital copies of TV shows mostly redeem in just HD even when included with 4K disc sets. We are a long way from having any meaningful selection of 8K content to stream. Also, how many people are even expected to own an 8K TV in 2022?

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The purpose of new codecs is to get more quality out of the same, or even less, bandwidth. Using more bandwidth costs more money, both for the streaming provider and the customer and no one likes higher costs.

That would be true if it was only for HD and 4K. But 8K content is coming in a couple of years. 8K content even with new codecs like H.266 & VVC will use much higher bandwidths than 4K currently uses.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

That would be true if it was only for HD and 4K. But 8K content is coming in a couple of years. 8K content even with new codecs like H.266 & VVC will use much higher bandwidths than 4K currently uses.

Again, what 8K content is coming? And from what studios? Who has committed to providing their catalog in 8K? No one that I know of has.

How many people will even own an 8K TV anytime soon? What are the projections showing?

8K streaming, even with more advanced codecs, will use substantially more bandwidth and lots of people in this country still can't even stream in 4K. Many also have data caps with their internet service; we do not all live in urban areas with competition among ISPs. The sole broadband ISP in my area imposes data caps on every plan level that they offer.

More bandwidth usage will cost more money. Will 8K content be so amazing that the typical bargain loving streaming customer will want to pay more to get it? Our resident streaming fanatic won't even pay the extra $3 per month to get 4K streaming from Netflix; will customers like him pay even more to get 8K streaming? I very much doubt it.

8K anything will be ultra niche for a very long time.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

Eventually we all got better connections and Netflix used more efficient codecs.

What codecs would that be? AFAIK H.262, H.264 and H.265 are in use/was in use. The encoders for these codecs have been/are being refined by the likes of eyeIO, x264, x265, etc. These refinements are not exclusive to streamers, they can apply to physical media, downloads, streams, etc.

[Dollar Colonel]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

If they are using more efficient codecs, why are so many enthusiasts complaining about compression artefacts in dark scenes, far worse since they decreased bitrate with their new algorithm?

I've heard Amazon's 4K streaming is a lot better. When I streamed Game of Thrones (albeit in HD) awhile ago the improvement in dark scenes was amazing, compared to HBO's own service.

There's no denying that enthusiasts will always demand the best. They will always latch on to perceived benefits of their chosen format. Some benefits are real and perceivable (HDR). Other benefits are snake oil (audiophile cables).

I'm more interested in discussing the average consumer and the point of diminishing returns. The folks who can't tell the difference between Netflix and a regular 1080p blu-ray or worse, a DVD. Even if they know about the benefits of UHD, they can't afford or don't think it's worth it to spent $1k+ on a UHD player, receiver, and speakers.

They're the mass market who influence studio decisions.

[bhampton]

I'm content to wait and see rather than suggest I know what will happen.

Also, I buy movies (as I always have) in hopes they will continue to be made available.

In terms of 8K I"m sure I have no need of it. My current system isn't state of the art but it's still better than anything that existed a few years ago and it's good enough to hold my attention.

-Brian

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

I've heard Amazon's 4K streaming is a lot better. When I streamed Game of Thrones (albeit in HD) awhile ago the improvement in dark scenes was amazing, compared to HBO's own service.

There's no denying that enthusiasts will always demand the best. They will always latch on to perceived benefits of their chosen format. Some benefits are real and perceivable (HDR). Other benefits are snake oil (audiophile cables).

I'm more interested in discussing the average consumer and the point of diminishing returns. The folks who can't tell the difference between Netflix and a regular 1080p blu-ray or worse, a DVD. Even if they know about the benefits of UHD, they can't afford or don't think it's worth it to spent $1k+ on a UHD player, receiver, and speakers.

They're the mass market who influence studio decisions.

Amazon is the only streaming service that I have connection problems with and forum member samlop10 did a detailed comparison of all the major streaming services and Amazon actually ranks among the worst of them for both video and audio quality. They are not the streaming standard by any definition.

Many of your typical streaming customers don't see enough of a difference between a HD stream and a 4K stream to pay the very modest price differences to get it. The differences between 4K streaming and 8K streaming will likely be even more subtle and therefore of even less interest.

You do not need to spend "$1K+" to enjoy the benefits of a 4K disc, either. There are a number of 4K disc players priced at, or under, $500 and even some around $250. A surround sound system is optional and a lot of people don't bother with one; their loss, but many do without. A 4K TV is a given now as that is pretty much all that is offered in 55" and larger TVs. Many people, whether they stream, use discs, or both, rely upon the TV's built-in speakers or maybe they will spring for a cheap soundbar.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

They're the mass market who influence studio decisions.

The mass market (worldwide) is pay/ad TV (linear and subscription VOD). The studios have been catering to the small niche market of enthusiast since the late 70's with the introduction of the MCA DiscVision/Pioneer LaserDisc. They have continued with video cassette, CED, DVD, D-Theater, HD DVD, Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray. Do you know of any business person that would eliminate a market segment that makes millions even if it is a small segment of the overall revenue for them?

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I'm content to wait and see rather than suggest I know what will happen.

Also, I buy movies (as I always have) in hopes they will continue to be made available.

In terms of 8K I"m sure I have no need of it. My current system isn't state of the art but it's still better than anything that existed a few years ago and it's good enough to hold my attention.

-Brian

I remember the Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds Camera that was a prototype that Robert Zohn played with from CES 2020. Coming in the summer, but hey it’s not out. All the discussion of 8k coming soon is moot until it’s actually here and consumers even want it.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I'm content to wait and see rather than suggest I know what will happen.

Also, I buy movies (as I always have) in hopes they will continue to be made available.

In terms of 8K I"m sure I have no need of it. My current system isn't state of the art but it's still better than anything that existed a few years ago and it's good enough to hold my attention.

-Brian

I need to see what an 8K TV can do for existing content: 4K, blu-ray, and DVD before I consider owning one. Sure, I want to see what actual 8K content offers, but I don't expect that there will be much of it for a very, very long time if ever. For me to buy an 8K TV it will have to impress me with its ability to upscale the content that is readily available.

I am keeping an open mind; I'm always ready to be impressed, but unless I am impressed I will pass on 8K displays. From all that I have heard, 8K TVs need to be very large, 75" and up, and even then the improvements have been described as "subtle" and "modest" and descriptions like that don't get me all excited to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade.

Have 8K TVs worked out those motion resolution problems yet? I have heard that that remains an issue as well.

[JohnAV]

I think anymore discussion belongs in the 8K Discussion thread.

[Dollar Colonel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

The mass market (worldwide) is pay/ad TV (linear and subscription VOD). The studios have been catering to the small niche market of enthusiast since the late 70's with the introduction of the MCA DiscVision/Pioneer LaserDisc. They have continued with video cassette, CED, DVD, D-Theater, HD DVD, Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray. Do you know of any business person that would eliminate a market segment that makes millions even if it is a small segment of the overall revenue for them?

Just off the top of my head are the following products that weren't replaced by something better:

Oppo
Apple XServe
Tons of Google Services (though the income there is ad-based)
Portable Sony game consoles
Physical disc playback on computers (dying)

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

Just off the top of my head are the following products that weren't replaced by something better:

Oppo
Apple XServe
Tons of Google Services (though the income there is ad-based)
Portable Sony game consoles
Physical disc playback on computers (dying)

As for oppo, many here feel that the Panasonic 820 and 9000 are better players. I don't have an opinion as I only own an oppo 203 at this point.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

I've heard Amazon's 4K streaming is a lot better. When I streamed Game of Thrones (albeit in HD) awhile ago the improvement in dark scenes was amazing, compared to HBO's own service.

The best streaming is achieved by utilizing MoviesAnywhere or iTunes with owned digital code content in 4K HDR10 or DV.

The same Movies available from subscription hosts is usually a lower Mbps peak max/average peak when using Apple TV 4K HUD (Developer's menu).

Example


The example (its a typical representation of 4K content) shows while the peak max is 30.41 Mbps, the average peak is 24.86 Mbps, and average bitrate like watching on a Oppo playing media is 16.24 Mbps from a 4K digital code film.

Watching the same from Disney + or Netflix subscription service will be like a Max peak of 24 Mbps compared to 30- 32 Mbps, and the average bit rate only about 11-13 Mbps when playing their 4K HDR content.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

I think anymore discussion belongs in the 8K Discussion thread.

I think it belongs here:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...82570&page=508



The word "future" is right in the title of this thread and 8K is germane to any discussion of "The Future of Home Video" and this thread is located under the broader category: "Blu-ray Technology AND Future Technology."

You really, really want to be a moderator, don't you?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Dollar Colonel

Just off the top of my head are the following products that weren't replaced by something better

My response was specific: studios and mass market.