Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

Just re-subscribed to HBO MAX for $104.99 ($8.74 per month) for the year. I had to use a different email address since the deal was only good for new subscribers. That's a 40+% off price reduction. After the first year it goes up to $149.99 p/y.

I'll be doing this again in a week and half with Paramount+ and their new bundle deal with Showtime since Apple Channels has increased the bundle (canceled with Apple).

Careful now. Pengie will be accusing you of fraud next.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IMO, the major problem is folks renting disc and a making a copy. Vilya certainly does not appear to be in that group but others are and use the term “Backup” to imply they own the disc when they do not and never did. It is the very reason most disc have those warnings that can not be skipped.

Its nothing new, remember those dual-well VHS cassette decks. For some reason there are large number of people that thinks nothing of copying all kinds of copyrighted content to avoid payment to the copyright owner.

I don't rent discs.

What I do is far, far worse. I occasionally buy a digital movie at rental prices. I am a bad person.

[russweiss1]

Dang, I thought we were moving past this.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by russweiss1

Dang, I thought we were moving past this.

We are.

Next, we will be discussing *fraudulently* opening up SVOD accounts to get discounts we're not entitled to.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Vilya

We are.

Next, we will be discussing *fraudulently* opening up SVOD accounts to get discounts we're not entitled to.

Hiow about the sharing of accounts which robs SVODs of subscription money. That happens here as some have gleefully boasted they do this practice.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Hiow about the sharing of accounts which robs SVODs of subscription money. That happens here as some have gleefully boasted they do this practice.

One outrage at a time.

That one's a rerun, anyway.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by russweiss1

Dang, I thought we were moving past this.

You haven’t been here long, have you?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

One outrage at a time.

That one's a rerun, anyway.

Is using digital codes to wipe one’s ass any sort of violation?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Is using digital codes to wipe one’s ass any sort of violation?

Only if you sell the code sheets in that condition.

I guess you could sell them "ass is."

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

People are allowed to continue using the content on their discs no matter what they have done with their discs. No licensing requirements or laws stipulate that you must posses the disc as proof of license. The purchase grants the license and whatever becomes of the disc later does not cancel that license.

Where are you getting this information? Where does anything say that you have a permanent license to the content that is never transferred even if you transfer ownership of the item that granted you the license.

By your ridiculous interpretation, codified in no law or license anywhere, anyone who has ever ripped a disc of any type, CD, laserdisc, DVD, or blu-ray and then sold or lost the source disc is a criminal if they kept what they ripped.

Yes, that's correct. It's unlikely to ever be enforced because it is extremely difficult to track but it is piracy.

By your bizarre reasoning everyone who has redeemed a digital code that came with a disc purchase, kept the digital copy, and then later sold the disc is also guilty of piracy.

The digital copy is a separate license from the disc. Just as both the DVDs and Blu-ray Discs in a combo pack are separate licenses. They can legally be separated. Unlike personal copies each one of them was distributed by the studio and can only be used by one person or household at a time.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Where are you getting this information? Where does anything say that you have a permanent license to the content that is never transferred even if you transfer ownership of the item that granted you the license.

In order to be a violation of a law or a license you have to be able to show exactly what portion of that law or license was violated. No law or license states that you must retain the disc as proof of license. None.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Yes, that's correct. It's unlikely to ever be enforced because it is extremely difficult to track but it is piracy.

Whatever it is, it is NOT piracy. No illegal copies or bootlegs are being sold.

You could argue that it is a violation of copyright and the DMCA, but that's it.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The digital copy is a separate license from the disc. Just as both the DVDs and Blu-ray Discs in a combo pack are separate licenses. They can legally be separated. Unlike personal copies each one of them was distributed by the studio and can only be used by one person or household at a time.

Digital copies derived from disc purchases are governed by terms of service that state that you must also own the disc. They are sold together and the digital code is NOT transferable without the disc.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

People are allowed to continue using the content on their discs no matter what they have done with their discs.

For most commercially produced movie disc you must own the disc in order to have legal access to the contents on that disc. In the US you can not make a legal copy for most disc. So it would follow that you can not buy a disc, make a copy then sell the commercially produced movie disc and still claim to have legal access to the contents of that disc.

Personal view, as long as a disc owner possess his/hers purchased disc then how they use it in their private dwelling is their business.

I used to take my LD player to work for the purpose of showing certain staff members excerpts from commercially produced movie disc to highlight video and/or audio effects, lighting etc. The legal folks said I could do this with restrictions. I could not play the entire movie to the general staff because that would be a public exhibition and our institution privileges would not cover that. Did the same with my DVD and D-VHS players.

Blu-ray.COM appears to have double standards where codes included with disc is concerned. A random example here, click the slipback and it clearly states the code can not be sold separately.

Another random example, Disney TOS/TOU, in part:

A. Consumer License. If a Disney Product, or third party providing Disney Products subject to this Agreement, is configured to enable the use of software, content, virtual items or other materials owned or licensed by us, we grant you a limited, non-exclusive, non-sublicensable, non-transferable license to access and use in the United States such software, content, virtual item or other material for your personal, noncommercial use only, only for as long as that Disney Product is made available to you by us, or an authorized third party, and only in accordance with this Agreement and/or the specific terms that apply to that Disney Product, with no right to reproduce, distribute, communicate to the public, make available to the public, or transform any Disney Product, in any media format or channel now known or hereafter devised (except as may be expressly described or contemplated within the Disney Product).

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

In order to be a violation of a law or a license you have to be able to show exactly what portion of that law or license was violated. No law or license states you must retain the disc as proof of license. None.

As I previously stated the DMCA makes it illegal to make copies in the first place. There doesn't need to be separate laws about selling discs after making copies because the copies are already illegal.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

As I previously stated the DMCA makes it illegal to make copies in the first place. There doesn't need to be separate laws about selling discs after making copies because the copies are already illegal.

The DMCA makes it illegal to defeat copy protection or DRM. Intellectual property without DRM can be copied without violating the DMCA.

Regardless, there is no requirement that anyone retain a disc as proof of license. None.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The DMCA makes it illegal to defeat copy protection or DRM. Intellectual property without DRM can be copied without violating the DMCA.

And you would never ever rip a disc that contained copy protection, would you?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

And you would never ever rip a disc that contained copy protection, would you?

I consider the DMCA to be unsettled law as it faces continuing legal challenges.

The software that I use for making back-ups does not tell me when it encounters DRM.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I consider the DMCA to be unsettled law as it faces continuing legal challenges.

The software that I use for making back-ups does not tell me when it encounters DRM.

I don't agree with the DMCA either but you keep arguing legality, not ethics. You keep pointing out that there is no law specifically preventing people from selling their discs after they make a copy. There are laws that prevent you from making a copy in the first place (for the vast majority of discs) so there don't need to be any additional laws.

My personal view is that movie discs shouldn't be treated any differently from any of the other property you own: if you sell the property you shouldn't be able to use it anymore.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For most commercially produced movie disc you must own the disc in order to have legal access to the contents on that disc. In the US you can not make a legal copy for most disc. So it would follow that you can not buy a disc, make a copy then sell the commercially produced movie disc and still claim to have legal access to the contents of that disc.

Personal view, as long as a disc owner possess his/hers purchased disc then how they use it in their private dwelling is their business.

I used to take my LD player to work for the purpose of showing certain staff members excerpts from commercially produced movie disc to highlight video and/or audio effects, lighting etc. The legal folks said I could do this with restrictions. I could not play the entire movie to the general staff because that would be a public exhibition and our institution privileges would not cover that. Did the same with my DVD and D-VHS players.

Blu-ray.COM appears to have double standards where codes included with disc is concerned. A random example here, click the slipback and it clearly states the code can not be sold separately.

Another random example, Disney TOS/TOU, in part:

As there is no requirement that you retain a disc as proof of license, there is also no requirement to explain what became of it. No one has to show their disc to the disc police when they use their home movie server. If they can't show their disc, there is also no requirement that they explain what happened to it.

The DMCA has created the idiotic situation where it is permissible to make back-ups of intellectual property contained on media lacking DRM. I can make all the back-ups I want of my Star Wars laserdiscs, but not of my Star Wars blu-rays. It is simply ridiculous.

Blu-ray.com has an entire forum for trafficking in digital codes. I naively wrote to them about this once and even showed them a sample of a TOS governing digital codes and they just shrugged it off saying that they have been allowing this for years.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I don't agree with the DMCA either but you keep arguing legality, not ethics. You keep pointing out that there is no law specifically preventing people from selling their discs after they make a copy. There are laws that prevent you from making a copy in the first place (for the vast majority of discs) so there don't need to be any additional laws.

My personal view is that movie discs shouldn't be treated any differently from any of the other property you own: if you sell the property you shouldn't be able to use it anymore.

I am saying that these are separate things getting conflated together.

Selling a used legitimate disc is legal with no need for an affidavit explaining how it was used prior to selling it.

If making a personal use copy is illegal, then it is either a copyright violation, a DMCA violation, or both, but it is not piracy. There is no trafficking in counterfeit goods occurring.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

As there is no requirement that you retain a disc as proof of license, there is also no requirement to explain what became of it. No one has to show their disc to the disc police when they use their home movie server. If they can't show their disc, there is also no requirement that they explain what happened to it.

The DMCA has created the idiotic situation where it is permissible to make back-ups of intellectual property contained on media lacking DRM. I can make all the back-ups I want of my Star Wars laserdiscs, but not of my Star Wars blu-rays. It is simply ridiculous.

If you're going to use a legal defense to justify what is acceptable then you can't pick and choose which laws to follow.