Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Wendell R. Breland]

My office around 2002, IIRC, that was a Samsung 28" LCD display, about $2700 from a supplier (HL Dalis?). Under the display was a JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS D-Theater recorder/player, about $550. In the PC was a MIT MDP100 ATSC tuner card, about $300. The Dolby Digital sign was my personal property, it was so exciting to have 5.1 sound at home via my LaserDisc and a Sony SDP-EP90ES (about $500 in 1996 or 7). Someone will have to do some tall talking to convince me these items were designed with cheapskates in mind.

One of the most unusual loudspeakers I ever auditioned here.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

My office around 2002, IIRC, that was a Samsung 28" LCD display, about $2700 from a supplier (HL Dalis?). Under the display was a JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS D-Theater recorder/player, about $550. In the PC was a MIT MDP100 ATSC tuner card, about $300. The Dolby Digital sign was my personal property, it was so exciting to have 5.1 sound at home via my LaserDisc and aSony SDP-EP90ES (about $500 in 1996 or 7). Someone will have to do some tall talking to convince me these items were designed with cheapskates in mind.

One of the most unusual loudspeakers I ever auditioned here.

[Show spoiler]

Advancements in home theater tech, and other tech, are so awesome that I sometimes wish that I had not retired so early. My railroad salary could pay for a lot more toys than my retirement income ever could.

But then I remember how much I love not having to get up at 3 AM most mornings and then spend every other night of my life in a cheap motel in some far flung station stop. With those 60-80 hour work weeks, I was too exhausted to enjoy the fruits of my labors, anyway.

I made the right decision by retiring early, but I do miss that purchasing power.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I made the right decision by retiring early, but I do miss that purchasing power.

I hear ya . I sometimes wonder if some of my medical problems were caused by the odd hours I worked all those years and the additional hours put in to support my audio and video habit.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My next hardware upgrade will either be to buy a new AVR or to buy new front speakers. I am having a hard time deciding upon a brand for either one and there are no decent stores within a 100 mile radius of me to audition anything. Audio products really need to be auditioned before purchasing. I have a budget in mind for both, but that's all. I like the peace and quiet of a rural area, but you won't find good home theater stores anywhere near here. Nor good restaurants.

It is tough even in St Louis to find a place to audition any gear, as the retail landscape has certainly changed. Most upgrades I have made over the last 15 years were without any sort of audition, as there had to be a lot of research before and a lot of hand wringing once I placed an order. The scariest ones were the main subs as the thought of bringing those back to a FedEx location was enough to give me a hernia. The projector and lens upgrade I did a few months ago was sight unseen, and that caused me some sleepless nights also.

Receivers / Processors I am a bit more confident in choosing without listening to, but speakers I feel should be auditioned whenever possible. Even with generous return periods online, I prefer to still take them out for a test drive ahead of time.

Living rural does sound appealing though, even without restaurant options other than fast food.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

My office around 2002, IIRC, that was a Samsung 28" LCD display, about $2700 from a supplier (HL Dalis?). Under the display was a JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS D-Theater recorder/player, about $550. In the PC was a MIT MDP100 ATSC tuner card, about $300. The Dolby Digital sign was my personal property, it was so exciting to have 5.1 sound at home via my LaserDisc and a Sony SDP-EP90ES (about $500 in 1996 or 7). Someone will have to do some tall talking to convince me these items were designed with cheapskates in mind.

One of the most unusual loudspeakers I ever auditioned here.

Looks like a great office and a very clean one. My wife does not have the OCD I have and trashes ours, so I hardly go in there except when I need to use the iMac.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Sanity is worth the sacrifice.

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back on this. I’m not really sure about all that Wendell. I know plenty of people, be it urban or rural, who are clueless when it comes to what is good internet. I live in a even smaller town now and people are clueless and content with there subpar providers.

I’m taking it day by day Vilya. I literally work, eat, sleep and when I’m off I’m looking at furniture that will fit in my place. Not to mention, listing a bunch of my collectibles on eBay to help both me and my ex on bills. Anyway, appreciate the support. I’ve been mainly watching old DVDs for the moment. I’ve been too tired to unpack the BDs I took with me. I might sign back up for Netflix BD service when I can.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Then he must have switched sides as apparently he's now going to be buying lots of 4K discs to rip and thinks that everyone else will too. Now that people finally have a way to rip their discs physical media will be more popular than ever.

I'm sure that alchav believes what he wrote, but he doesn't understand what he wrote.

Well remember back when I talked about a Home Media Server, this is the direction we are going. Converting your clunky Disc Collection to Digital, while also having access to your Streaming Content through one devise. Zappiti is Android based so it has Android Apps to access your favorite Streaming Providers for that full Media Center Experience. No I'm not going to Disc, but I do feel other Manufactures will take this route.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well remember back when I talked about a Home Media Server, this is the direction we are going. Converting your clunky Disc Collection to Digital, while also having access to your Streaming Content through one devise. Zappiti is Android based so it has Android Apps to access your favorite Streaming Providers for that full Media Center Experience. No I'm not going to Disc, but I do feel other Manufactures will take this route.

But our "clunky disc collection" is already digital as you constantly remind us. Further, most discs include a digital copy. You know this very well as scrounging for cheap codes and trolling disc buyers are your primary reasons for being here.

Most people stream via the apps included on their TVs, game consoles, dedicated streaming devices, mobile devices, and, wait for it, their disc players. No one needs a Zappiti NAS server to stream Netflix.

Few people are ever going to rip movies and store large numbers of them across multiple hard drives. Many people never mastered programming their VCRs; they aren't going to grasp home media servers with multiple hard drives any better. They sure as hell are not going to pay $4739 for a Zappiti NAS Server. You won't, either.

Ripping my collection alone would require over 300 terabytes of storage space. The Zappiti NAS server barely supports a third of that with the addition, at extra cost, of all eight of the 16 TB hard drives that it can support.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Even if they rip all of their discs people will still need to keep that "clunky" disc collection. Anyone who wants to rip their discs has easily been able to do so for decades for far cheaper than Zappiti's ridiculously overpriced player.

Most Blu-ray players already have lots of streaming apps so most people can already play everything on one player. That's not unique to this player either.

Whether or not home media servers become common in the future is irrelevant to the physical distribution vs digital distribution debate. The debate is how do people acquire their content from the studios (via disc, download, or streaming) not what people do with the content after they acquire it.

The term "digital" never should have become the common term for downloads or streaming. Someone who buys physical media and rips it is still a physical media supporter and not a "digital" supporter. They still clearly prefer physical distribution.

Ripping a disc does not convert physical distribution to digital distribution. I'm going to refer back to my previous post which I assume no one read:

If home media servers became standard in the future than the physical vs digital debate would still exist. I would be saying it's better to buy discs and rip them to servers. And you'd be saying that it's better to download movies directly to the servers. The advantages and disadvantages I just mentioned would remain the same.

I read your post and this one, too.

He doesn't understand that the download system used by Kaleidescape, the only service that offers downloaded files the same size as those found on a disc, is a proprietary system that uses DRM to control both your content and to lock you into their eco system. With out Kaleidescape's hardware AND software, you can not play their downloads. That and their system is insanely expensive.

Streaming customers don't like expensive and that excludes Zappiti and Kaleidescape from consideration. Including streaming apps that they already have on far more affordable devices won't change their minds, either.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

I’m taking it day by day Vilya. I literally work, eat, sleep and when I’m off I’m looking at furniture that will fit in my place. Not to mention, listing a bunch of my collectibles on eBay to help both me and my ex on bills. Anyway, appreciate the support. I’ve been mainly watching old DVDs for the moment. I’ve been too tired to unpack the BDs I took with me. I might sign back up for Netflix BD service when I can.

I am sorry that you need to sell your collectibles; that's rough.

I hope things settle down into a comfortable routine soon.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

And that's even scarier than usual with an unpopular system like Kaleidescape. People could easily spend tens of thousands of dollars on movies and they'd lose them all if Kaleidescape ever goes out of business. And some of those movies would likely disappear from other digital storefronts in the meantime and could be irreplaceable.

Additionally, downloading files up to 100 GB in size each is not something that many people are going to enjoy doing with any frequency, especially if they lack very fast internet service.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Zappiti is Android based so it has Android Apps to access your favorite Streaming Providers for that full Media Center Experience.

Not true, no Dolby Vision and no HLG.

There is Android TV and then there is authorized Android TV, click here for a list of products in the US.

[Wendell R. Breland]

For the next gen of Xbox (here):

“This generation, we’ve really focused on 4K visuals and how we bring both movies through 4K Blu-ray and video streaming,” Spencer added. “And with Xbox One X allowing games to run at 4K visuals will make really strong visual enhancements next generation.”

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My next hardware upgrade will either be to buy a new AVR or to buy new front speakers. I am having a hard time deciding upon a brand for either one and there are no decent stores within a 100 mile radius of me to audition anything. Audio products really need to be auditioned before purchasing. I have a budget in mind for both, but that's all. I like the peace and quiet of a rural area, but you won't find good home theater stores anywhere near here. Nor good restaurants.

I would start with a Magnolia Design Center to get an idea of the speakers available. There is a MDC located below. Finding a MDC can be a pain, search for Magnolia Design Center, city and state (IL). SVS speakers are favorites of some and MDC is a authorized outlet. Most of the manufactures list authorized outlets, unfortunately, most are integrator/installer with no showrooms but you may get lucky and find a dealer with demo models.

It appears BD.COM does not like MDC links, so cut and paste.
"https://stores.bestbuy.com/il/chicago/2100-n-elston-ave-814/magnolia.html"

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I would start with a Magnolia Design Center to get an idea of the speakers available. There is a MDC located below. Finding a MDC can be a pain, search for Magnolia Design Center, city and state (IL). SVS speakers are favorites of some and MDC is a authorized outlet. Most of the manufactures list authorized outlets, unfortunately, most are integrator/installer with no showrooms but you may get lucky and find a dealer with demo models.

It appears BD.COM does not like MDC links, so cut and paste.
"https://stores.bestbuy.com/il/chicago/2100-n-elston-ave-814/magnolia.html"

Thank you for all of this information. The nearest major city to me is St. Louis, Mo.

The SVS speakers are all way under my budget, but it never hurts to give them a listen. I am willing to go as high as $4K for a pair of floor standing speakers. What do you think of the GoldenEar Tritons?

https://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

My now ancient floor standing speakers handle bass well, so much so that I never saw a need to get a sub. I notice that some of today's floor standing speakers have subs built-in. Is that desirable or should a sub be a separate unit? Do (some) floor standing speakers without a built-in sub still deliver bass response equivalent to what a separate sub could?

I bought my existing AVR from a Magnolia within a Best Buy, but that was in southern California where there were no shortages of stores to audition gear at least way back in 2006. That's how old my AVR is; I have the Denon AVR 4806. I am budgeting about $2500 to replace it.

It still works great, but is it ever out of date. My only complaint with new AVRs is that they do not support legacy devices as well as the one that I own now. You won't find S-video connectors on many AVRs today.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Thank you for all of this information. The nearest major city to me is St. Louis, Mo.

The SVS speakers are all way under my budget, but it never hurts to give them a listen. I am willing to go as high as $4K for a pair of floor standing speakers. What do you think of the GoldenEar Tritons?

https://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

My now ancient floor standing speakers handle bass well, so much so that I never saw a need to get a sub. I notice that some of today's floor standing speakers have subs built-in. Is that desirable or should a sub be a separate unit? Do (some) floor standing speakers without a built-in sub still deliver bass response equivalent to what a separate sub could?

I bought my existing AVR from a Magnolia within a Best Buy, but that was in southern California where there were no shortages of stores to audition gear at least way back in 2006. That's how old my AVR is; I have the Denon AVR 4806. I am budgeting about $2500 to replace it.

It still works great, but is it ever out of date. My only complaint with new AVRs is that they do not support legacy devices as well as the one that I own now. You won't find S-video connectors on many AVRs today.

GoldenEar is Sandy Gross’ company he started up after he parted ways with Definitive Technology. I have listened to them at the Sound Room here in town and they are solid performers. If you want to check them out in person, that would be the place I would suggest if you want to plan a trip to St Louis. Hell, if schedules line up, I could meet you there and maybe grab a bite to eat.

Speakers with subs built in are somewhat of a polarizing category with some people loving them and some not in favor of. The challenge in my mind is that where you place your main speakers in your room may not be the optimum placement for subs. In other words, you have your two mains placed to the left and right of your big new tv because they image the best there, or that is where fit, but those spots are not kind to bass in your room. Even with calibration being a lot better in today’s receivers, you still can’t overcome the placement. Anytime someone picks up speakers with subs in them, I still nudge them towards a separate sub. Ultimately if you went that direction, you could start with the Tritons and see what you think, and add a sub if you feel that you need a bit more bottom end.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by gotmule

GoldenEar is Sandy Gross’ company he started up after he parted ways with Definitive Technology. I have listened to them at the Sound Room here in town and they are solid performers. If you want to check them out in person, that would be the place I would suggest if you want to plan a trip to St Louis. Hell, if schedules line up, I could meet you there and maybe grab a bite to eat.

Speakers with subs built in are somewhat of a polarizing category with some people loving them and some not in favor of. The challenge in my mind is that where you place your main speakers in your room may not be the optimum placement for subs. In other words, you have your two mains placed to the left and right of your big new tv because they image the best there, or that is where fit, but those spots are not kind to bass in your room. Even with calibration being a lot better in today’s receivers, you still can’t overcome the placement. Anytime someone picks up speakers with subs in them, I still nudge them towards a separate sub. Ultimately if you went that direction, you could start with the Tritons and see what you think, and add a sub if you feel that you need a bit more bottom end.

Thank you for the recommendation of the Sound Room and for the invite; that would be a lot of fun.

I won't be buying anything major before spring and I am undecided whether to buy a new AVR first or to buy new front speakers first. I have to do these purchases one at a time.

You make a good point about built-in subs; I will have to mull that over. Still, I do want to audition the GoldenEar Tritons. Curiously, Definitive Technology speakers include both built-in subs and upward firing height speakers, but I "heard" that their drivers are made of treated paper instead of polypropylene. Upward firing speakers are not generally well regarded, either.

https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/bp9080x

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Thank you for the recommendation of the Sound Room and for the invite; that would be a lot of fun.

I won't be buying anything major before spring and I am undecided whether to buy a new AVR first or to buy new front speakers first. I have to do these purchases one at a time.

You make a good point about built-in subs; I will have to mull that over. Still, I do want to audition the GoldenEar Tritons. Curiously, Definitive Technology speakers include both built-in subs and upward firing height speakers, but I "heard" that their drivers are made of treated paper instead of polypropylene. Upward firing speakers are not generally well regarded, either.

https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/bp9080x

Atmos add on speakers or built in upward firing are convenient, but not always the best way to get an immersive setup. Sometimes the room will not allow for mounting speakers above your head, so that route is often the only way to go. PM me when you get closer to heading out this way to see if we can make something happen. I love helping people spend their money!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Thank you for all of this information. The nearest major city to me is St. Louis, Mo.

It appears St. Louis does have a Magnolia but no Design Center. As to speaker style, what gotmule said. It takes a large box and lots of power to get down in the 16 to 30 Hz range, produce ample output with fairly low distortion. Did you download the warble tones here. I use the free site so it makes you wait at every step. Your Oppo 203 can play the FLAC files. I assume you have a decent SPL meter, you really need one for channel balance and other testing. I recommend the Galaxy CM-140 Sound Level Meter (Verified+) here.

My three front DIY speakers are D'appolito style but uses two tweeters, the physical on-axis plane is ear level for all three. This requires a acoustical transparent screen. It is a personal thing, I like to hear dialogue coming from the center of the screen. During the many years of a 78" hard screen I had no choice except to use 2 front speakers and use a phantom center channel.

The GoldenEar speakers have received very good reviews over the years. They use passive radiators to extend the bass response on many of their speakers, it is a method that I do not care for. Again, just personal preferences, I like speakers with fairly low Q with optimum damping to maybe a little over damped. A lot of aftermarket automotive bass units use a double tuned box with a high Q, lots of output with not very many watts. I call them one note blasters and they all sound the same.

I would caution against more money = better sound, I have auditioned $30,000 a pair speakers that sounded fine with chamber music at fairly low levels but fell apart with pop music at moderate levels. Highly recommend this article and the test in 5. Array Test Results. This style of speaker is not for me but the info on cost vs performance is worth the read.

For your next AVR or AVP I would make sure it has a very good parametric EQ with bands that covers sub-bass regions.

The best advice, if at all possible take gotmule up on his offer, he seems quite knowledgeable on loudspeakers and could convey more info in a few hours than many post here. It has been several years now since doing loudspeakers and I hope my terms and info is correct.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am sorry that you need to sell your collectibles; that's rough.

I hope things settle down into a comfortable routine soon.

More like streamlining than the entire collection, but thank you.