Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes with iTunes your Streaming Quality is not that good, if you had Vudu HDX then watching Civil War in all it's glory could be accomplished with a good set up and enough Bandwidth.

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Disagree with that.

Well you guys are the ones that said it, that your iTunes Streaming was not as good as Blu-ray. In comparison with Vudu HDX, where I say with the right set-up and Bandwidth, the Streaming Quality is the same as Blu-ray. Vudu's Variable BitRate matches Blu-ray Quality, and is dependent on Access and Bandwidth.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well you guys are the ones that said it, that your iTunes Streaming was not as good as Blu-ray. In comparison with Vudu HDX, where I say with the right set-up and Bandwidth, the Streaming Quality is the same as Blu-ray. Vudu's Variable BitRate matches Blu-ray Quality, and is dependent on Access and Bandwidth.

iTunes and Vudu Hdx are approximately equal in terms of quality. Personally iTunes looks a bit better 2 me but its really a case by case basis (vudu has a good compression system but when it fails it seems a lot more blatant then itunes in my opinion). Both of them are significantly worse then blu ray when a blu ray is using its space to its fullest with a proper encode. Actually they are both significantly worse then blu ray when blu ray is somewhat phoning it in even as most of the time as a bad blu ray encode normally means the horrible digital master.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well you guys are the ones that said it, that your iTunes Streaming was not as good as Blu-ray. In comparison with Vudu HDX, where I say with the right set-up and Bandwidth, the Streaming Quality is the same as Blu-ray. Vudu's Variable BitRate matches Blu-ray Quality, and is dependent on Access and Bandwidth.

Please stop saying this!!!!
Vudu quality is excellent but not the same as BluRay.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by veritas

iTunes and Vudu Hdx are approximately equal in terms of quality. Personally iTunes looks a bit better 2 me but its really a case by case basis (vudu has a good compression system but when it fails it seems a lot more blatant then itunes in my opinion). Both of them are significantly worse then blu ray when a blu ray is using its space to its fullest with a proper encode. Actually they are both significantly worse then blu ray when blu ray is somewhat phoning it in even as most of the time as a bad blu ray encode normally means the horrible digital master.

Your getting too Technical, I'm just talking about BitRate, in my opinion Vudu HDX is the same as Blu-ray with the right set up and Bandwidth. I have FTTP, and Direct Access to the Vudu Server so my HDX Streams are at the highest Quality because of the full BitRate. So when you talk about compression, those are downloaded Files which are different than Streaming Video.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Greyman

Please stop saying this!!!!
Vudu quality is excellent but not the same as BluRay.

If you don't have FTTP, and Direct Access to the Vudu Server then you can't compare to what I say. It has been proven by experts, with enough Bandwidth the BitRate can be the same as Blu-ray.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well you guys are the ones that said it, that your iTunes Streaming was not as good as Blu-ray. In comparison with Vudu HDX, where I say with the right set-up and Bandwidth, the Streaming Quality is the same as Blu-ray.

I love your posts, they give me a great laugh every week. You've consistently been asked to provide screen caps to back up these claims of yours, but you never do. Not only this, you've said a couple of times that your TV's maximum capability is 1080i, so if this is the case, then you certainly don't have the right setup, and therefore your comparisons aren't something that anyone should be taking notice of.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Your getting too Technical, I'm just talking about BitRate, in my opinion Vudu HDX is the same as Blu-ray with the right set up and Bandwidth. I have FTTP, and Direct Access to the Vudu Server so my HDX Streams are at the highest Quality because of the full BitRate. So when you talk about compression, those are downloaded Files which are different than Streaming Video.

I dont know how to be less techincal then itunes looks more or less the same as vudu hdx when they are both at their best. Vudu looks worse then blu ray unless the blu ray is seriously flawed. Lets put it this way people have done comparisons between uhd streams (much better bit rates then hdx) and bds and the blu ray wins in terms of quality because of compression errors which you might not see but they are their.

Vudu has a higher number of anomalies then iTunes in my opinion that are flaws in the encode due to whatever their method is for compressing (though iTunes might look slightly softer I hear but I never see personally). Vudu also has a lot of subtitles and syncing errors that are generated though rather normal use. Like if you want to argue price ya Vudu will win with its 1$ conversions but vudu has a lot of problems in other areas that iTunes and blu rays don't have.

As far as stability quality and convenience I would rate them as

quality : blu ray>iTunes>=Vudu (it all comes down to how much compression is needed and how efficient the compression is. blu ray simply has a unfair advantage in this category that streaming has no chance of coming close to winning against)

stability: blu ray > iTunes>vudu (vudu has alot of bugs which sometimes literally stops me from playing a movie or forces me to reload a movie.)


convience: iTunes>vudu>blu ray (untill today i could not even play hd on my ipad for vudu. They might have just fixed it but I will hold a grudge for being so slow to upgrade their apps)

Now if you had some way to get hdx raws of movies that are greater then or equal to 50gb in size then ya they would be the same quality or better then blu ray probably but studios always heavily compress streams.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well you guys are the ones that said it, that your iTunes Streaming was not as good as Blu-ray. In comparison with Vudu HDX, where I say with the right set-up and Bandwidth, the Streaming Quality is the same as Blu-ray. Vudu's Variable BitRate matches Blu-ray Quality, and is dependent on Access and Bandwidth.

Originally Posted by Cevolution

I love your posts, they give me a great laugh every week. You've consistently been asked to provide screen caps to back up these claims of yours, but you never do. Not only this, you've said a couple of times that your TV's maximum capability is 1080i, so if this is the case, then you certainly don't have the right setup, and therefore your comparisons aren't something that anyone should be taking notice of.

Says the guy living in Australia that has never experienced Vudu HDX. Screen Caps don't prove anything, they can be easily manipulated, facts are the proof. You're right, my 62" DLP Mitsubishi HDTV is old and only 1080i, but has a great picture on it's 5th Lamp. All you guys put down Digital HD not being as good as Blu-ray, when the Disc is just a Storage Device too. You put these same Files on a Server and Stream them, the BitRate will be the same and the Picture Quality too. You do realize when you play that Blu-ray you are Streaming from the Disc, so Stream the same File from a Server you will get the same Picture Quality. Same BitRate, same Picture Quality.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Says the guy living in Australia that has never experienced Vudu HDX. Screen Caps don't prove anything, they can be easily manipulated, facts are the proof. You're right, my 62" DLP Mitsubishi HDTV is old and only 1080i, but has a great picture on it's 5th Lamp. All you guys put down Digital HD not being as good as Blu-ray, when the Disc is just a Storage Device too. You put these same Files on a Server and Stream them, the BitRate will be the same and the Picture Quality too. You do realize when you play that Blu-ray you are Streaming from the Disc, so Stream the same File from a Server you will get the same Picture Quality. Same BitRate, same Picture Quality.

Where I live doesn't matter, regardless whether my country's internet infrastructure was able to give me video quality that surpasses physical media, I wouldn't care. I prefer physical media, period!

The fact is, you are making claims, and it's about time that you put up or shut up. There are plenty of members here that have internet speeds on par with you and have access to the same services, that also own 1080p or 4K screens, and therefore are better equipped than you to make a judgement about these things. However, I don't see anyone else supporting your claims or backing you up. Why haven't you bought yourself a new tv, is it because you can't afford one? That's likely why you prefer streaming over Blu-ray, because it's more affordable, and because you can't afford Blu-ray content to the same extent, you tell yourself that you're not getting any less of a product. Un-manipulated screen caps are posted on this site and other sites such as caps-a-holic.com all the time. You simply don't post them because you don't know how, or you know that you can be proven wrong. We all know that Blu-ray is simply a storage device (you sound foolish repeating this all the time as if you think that you are educating people), however the video quality of content stored on UHD/Blu-ray disc, is still superior to that of streaming services. You're the only one claiming that it's not, so prove it. Otherwise enough is enough, stop trolling, and if you continue to do so, a mod should ban you.

[rui no onna]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Says the guy living in Australia that has never experienced Vudu HDX. Screen Caps don't prove anything, they can be easily manipulated, facts are the proof. You're right, my 62" DLP Mitsubishi HDTV is old and only 1080i, but has a great picture on it's 5th Lamp. All you guys put down Digital HD not being as good as Blu-ray, when the Disc is just a Storage Device too. You put these same Files on a Server and Stream them, the BitRate will be the same and the Picture Quality too. You do realize when you play that Blu-ray you are Streaming from the Disc, so Stream the same File from a Server you will get the same Picture Quality. Same BitRate, same Picture Quality.

Full 1:1 Blu-rays ripped to server, sure, they'd have the same PQ as they're pretty much the same videos at the same bitrate, just with DRM removed and copied over to HDD. Those 50GB Kaleidescape downloads are Blu-ray quality, too.

Vudu HDX at 10-15Mbps, however, is not. Doesn't really matter if you have gigabit internet. If Vudu encodes at 10-15Mbps max for 1080p, then that's what you're getting.

Now whether the PQ difference between Blu-ray and Vudu HDX (or other instant video service) is obviously noticeable and distracting during playback depends on the viewer. At a low price point, most probably wouldn't be bothered given the popularity of Netflix, et al.

However, when one is paying per video and a new release on Vudu/iTunes is $20 and the Blu-ray version with Digital Copy code is also $20, I'm guessing ownership and quality expectations will be higher. Blu-ray may just be a storage medium but it's still tangible, physical property.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Says the guy living in Australia that has never experienced Vudu HDX. Screen Caps don't prove anything, they can be easily manipulated, facts are the proof. You're right, my 62" DLP Mitsubishi HDTV is old and only 1080i, but has a great picture on it's 5th Lamp. All you guys put down Digital HD not being as good as Blu-ray, when the Disc is just a Storage Device too. You put these same Files on a Server and Stream them, the BitRate will be the same and the Picture Quality too. You do realize when you play that Blu-ray you are Streaming from the Disc, so Stream the same File from a Server you will get the same Picture Quality. Same BitRate, same Picture Quality.

Watching a raw rip (mkv, .m2ts, etc.) from local storage IS NOT the same as streaming from Vudu. Vudu themselves have said that the max bitrate for 1080p is 9Mbps. So unless the bitrate of the actual BD is 9Mbps (which is NEVER the case), there is no way for Vudu to be the same quality as blu-ray.

I'm as big of a UV/Vudu fanboy as they come, but misinformation will not be tolerated.

[Greyman]

From another thread:

Originally Posted by alchav21

I don't know why you guys are in such denial, Vudu with it's Variable BitRate has the ability to Stream Blu-ray Quality Video. If you have FTTH, and are set up properly there is no reason to believe the BitRate for Blu-ray and HDX can't be the same. Vudu Servers are massive, and able to hold and Stream large HDX Files giving full Blu-ray Quality BitRate.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

There are absolutely not the same. From VUDU Engineering:

Blu-ray far exceeds 9Mbps, with rates that target between 15-25Mbps and peak at 40Mbps. UHD discs peak at 108Mbps.

VUDU's HDX offers roughly twice the bitrate of iTunes (4.5-5Mbps) and nearly 4x other UV providers (2.5Mbps). HDX is very good and I prefer VUDU over Blu-ray for other reasons but pretending it's equivalent to Blu-ray is silly.

Originally Posted by alchav21

With Stats you can discredit anything, but your Engineer Posts are a year old and you know how Technology moves so fast. The BitRate at 9.5Mbps is the Average, but it can go much higher depending on the connection set up. Two or three years ago it was going up to 20Mbps, so by now it should be up to 40Mbps just like Blu-ray. I have FTTH, and I know other Posters who have said they see no difference between Blu-ray Disc and HDX. BitRate is all determined by the size of the File, and if you have Direct Access to the Vudu Server with Blu-ray Quality Files there is no reason to deny these Streaming capabilities.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

No, you're simply wrong. HDX has been the same since it was released. Upgrading the infrastructure and getting their content partners to deliver new encodes would be a nontrivial effort. You've offered hand-waving about technology being fast as a refutation of what a VUDU engineer, with close knowledge of their own infrastructure, stated.

Dismissing "stats" in general and then supplying your own as a defense is absurd. Surely numbers aren't everything but they're most relevant here. There is an old aphorism about cars: There's no substitute for cubic inches. In this case there's no substitute for bitrate. I believe VUDU is the highest H.264 bitrate streamer. For comparison, Netflix SuperHD is 6Mbps. Both HDX and SuperHD look very good but neither match Blu-ray. Could some streamed content look better than some Blu-ray content? Absolutely. But that has more to do with the source/encode than the network.

The 9Mbps rate is not the average, it's the maximum. It doesn't burst higher, it's adaptive downwards. There's no 20Mbps average happening. Could you see transient spikes of 20Mbps using a network analysis tool? Sure. Then you'd see it drop to a minimal level, even 0Mbps. That has to do with network transport and buffering and isn't representative of the bitrate for the video stream contained within.

Saying that some people perceive HDX to be equivalent to Blu-ray is meaningless unless they watched the same content in the same controlled environment on the same equipment. A common rule of thumb is that you need double the bitrate to see a difference. Blu-ray is going to typically offer double the bitrate over HDX. If this was a debate between 9Mbps and 11Mbps, I would agree that many people could perceive them as being the same. But that's not the case here.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Says the guy living in Australia that has never experienced Vudu HDX. Screen Caps don't prove anything, they can be easily manipulated, facts are the proof. You're right, my 62" DLP Mitsubishi HDTV is old and only 1080i, but has a great picture on it's 5th Lamp. All you guys put down Digital HD not being as good as Blu-ray, when the Disc is just a Storage Device too. You put these same Files on a Server and Stream them, the BitRate will be the same and the Picture Quality too. You do realize when you play that Blu-ray you are Streaming from the Disc, so Stream the same File from a Server you will get the same Picture Quality. Same BitRate, same Picture Quality.

Originally Posted by Cevolution

Where I live doesn't matter, regardless whether my country's internet infrastructure was able to give me video quality that surpasses physical media, I wouldn't care. I prefer physical media, period!

The fact is, you are making claims, and it's about time that you put up or shut up. There are plenty of members here that have internet speeds on par with you and have access to the same services, that also own 1080p or 4K screens, and therefore are better equipped than you to make a judgement about these things. However, I don't see anyone else supporting your claims or backing you up. Why haven't you bought yourself a new tv, is it because you can't afford one? That's likely why you prefer streaming over Blu-ray, because it's more affordable, and because you can't afford Blu-ray content to the same extent, you tell yourself that you're not getting any less of a product. Un-manipulated screen caps are posted on this site and other sites such as caps-a-holic.com all the time. You simply don't post them because you don't know how, or you know that you can be proven wrong. We all know that Blu-ray is simply a storage device (you sound foolish repeating this all the time as if you think that you are educating people), however the video quality of content stored on UHD/Blu-ray disc, is still superior to that of streaming services. You're the only one claiming that it's not, so prove it. Otherwise enough is enough, stop trolling, and if you continue to do so, a mod should ban you.

Originally Posted by rui no onna

Full 1:1 Blu-rays ripped to server, sure, they'd have the same PQ as they're pretty much the same videos at the same bitrate, just with DRM removed and copied over to HDD. Those 50GB Kaleidescape downloads are Blu-ray quality, too.

Vudu HDX at 10-15Mbps, however, is not. Doesn't really matter if you have gigabit internet. If Vudu encodes at 10-15Mbps max for 1080p, then that's what you're getting.

Now whether the PQ difference between Blu-ray and Vudu HDX (or other instant video service) is obviously noticeable and distracting during playback depends on the viewer. At a low price point, most probably wouldn't be bothered given the popularity of Netflix, et al.

Cevolution you just get too worked up, no need for name calling, I have been a member a little longer than you. My claims have only been verified by members of what I have been saying for years. I do have a large collection of Blu-ray and DVD's, but I have converted most to Digital HDX 400+. Time and Technology moves on, I have always moved with the new times. Vudu encoding at 10-15Mbps for 1080P is several years old, and also burst that go up to 20-25Mbps is years old. All I'm saying is that Vudu has been raising their encodes and BitRates depending on Access and Bandwidth. My FTTP ISP, CSN, provides me with an Intra-Net and close proximity Vudu Server for the highest BitRates.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Cevolution you just get too worked up, no need for name calling, I have been a member a little longer than you. My claims have only been verified by members of what I have been saying for years. I do have a large collection of Blu-ray and DVD's, but I have converted most to Digital HDX 400+. Time and Technology moves on, I have always moved with the new times. Vudu encoding at 10-15Mbps for 1080P is several years old, and also burst that go up to 20-25Mbps is years old. All I'm saying is that Vudu has been raising their encodes and BitRates depending on Access and Bandwidth. My FTTP ISP, CSN, provides me with an Intra-Net and close proximity Vudu Server for the highest BitRates.

I didn't call you a name, nor was I worked up when I made that post. All I did was ask you a few questions, but like usual, you have simply ignored them (and posts from other members trying to set you straight about the misinformation that you keep posting), and have continued to carry on with the same tune. It truly has got to the point where your posts fall under the definition of being a forum troll.

Also, to the part in bold, if that were the case, you wouldn't own an old 1080i tv as your primary display.

Lastly, how long you have been a member is irrelevant, it's what you have contributed to this site during your time here that matters.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Cevolution you just get too worked up, no need for name calling, I have been a member a little longer than you. My claims have only been verified by members of what I have been saying for years. I do have a large collection of Blu-ray and DVD's, but I have converted most to Digital HDX 400+. Time and Technology moves on, I have always moved with the new times. Vudu encoding at 10-15Mbps for 1080P is several years old, and also burst that go up to 20-25Mbps is years old. All I'm saying is that Vudu has been raising their encodes and BitRates depending on Access and Bandwidth. My FTTP ISP, CSN, provides me with an Intra-Net and close proximity Vudu Server for the highest BitRates.

Originally Posted by Cevolution

I didn't call you a name, nor was I worked up when I made that post. All I did was ask you a few questions, but like usual, you have simply ignored them (and posts from other members trying to set you straight about the misinformation that you keep posting), and have continued to carry on with the same tune. It truly has got to the point where your posts fall under the definition of being a forum troll.

Also, to the part in bold, if that were the case, you wouldn't own an old 1080i tv as your primary display.

Lastly, how long you have been a member is irrelevant, it's what you have contributed to this site during your time here that matters.

You're right, my main HDTV is a little old, I have talked to my CFO but can't get the okay in the budget for an UHD TV. Maybe the New Year will be kind to me, and grant me my wish. So to me Blu-ray and HDX looks the same, especially with the High BitRates I get. My main point is that 1:1 Encoding is possible with the right Access and Bandwidth. The only reason I bring up Blu-ray being a Storage Device, is because the direction we are heading. I know people love their Physical Discs, but to me it's obvious storage has to increase so putting it on a Server for Direct Streaming is The Future. Movies for Cinema are put on Hard Drives to show on their Digital Projectors, so why not do the same for Home Theaters. I'm Retired from AT&T, and they have the Fiber Backbone. So I see the future with a Fiber Infrastructure and Fiber Networks straight to Business and Home.

[rui no onna]

Originally Posted by alchav21

My claims have only been verified by members of what I have been saying for years. I do have a large collection of Blu-ray and DVD's, but I have converted most to Digital HDX 400+. Time and Technology moves on, I have always moved with the new times. Vudu encoding at 10-15Mbps for 1080P is several years old, and also burst that go up to 20-25Mbps is years old. All I'm saying is that Vudu has been raising their encodes and BitRates depending on Access and Bandwidth. My FTTP ISP, CSN, provides me with an Intra-Net and close proximity Vudu Server for the highest BitRates.

I'm sorry, I don't know why you're quoting me as if I'm verifying your claims regarding Vudu as I'm not. Is it possible to provide Blu-ray quality streaming or downloads? Yes. Kaleidescape is doing it and really, the only thing that matters is bandwidth (streaming) and/or time (in the case of downloads).

Is Vudu HDX Blu-ray quality? From Zu Nim's posts quoting Vudu's engineers, no. Personally, I've got high enough downstream bandwidth for Vudu HDX but I notice banding and macroblocking (sometimes enough to be distracting) on their streams that's not present on Blu-ray. I rarely use Vudu as I run my own 12TB Plex server at home. Any content I have on Vudu, I also have as full Blu-ray quality MKV rips on my server. When at home, we usually watch via Plex.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right, my main HDTV is a little old, I have talked to my CFO but can't get the okay in the budget for an UHD TV. Maybe the New Year will be kind to me, and grant me my wish. So to me Blu-ray and HDX looks the same, especially with the High BitRates I get. My main point is that 1:1 Encoding is possible with the right Access and Bandwidth. The only reason I bring up Blu-ray being a Storage Device, is because the direction we are heading. I know people love their Physical Discs, but to me it's obvious storage has to increase so putting it on a Server for Direct Streaming is The Future. Movies for Cinema are put on Hard Drives to show on their Digital Projectors, so why not do the same for Home Theaters. I'm Retired from AT&T, and they have the Fiber Backbone. So I see the future with a Fiber Infrastructure and Fiber Networks straight to Business and Home.

I'm not interested in what your views are about the future, or your preferred method for sourcing content. It's your claims that you are getting the same quality as Blu-ray through your streaming service with your internet provider that I'm interested in. You're not getting the bitrates and quality from your streaming service that you have been saying, which has been explained to you by multiple members. Despite this, you still keep running with your claims, when there are people that know that you are speaking nonsense.

So what all of your consistent "with the right setup, the streaming service I use looks the same as Blu-ray" talk actually means, is that one doesn't need to own newer higher end equipment for this, but rather if someone owns old outdated equipment predating 1080p, then content from your streaming service looks the same as Blu-ray downscaled to 1080i or 720p?

[PCFan]

Sometimes I get issues with damaged discs or a discs skipping/freezing up. With digital I don't have to worry about those issues. However, my internet connection intermittently losing connection 3-4 times a day between the hours of 4pm to 10pm, and this was the main reason why I went back to physical media for movies. Just about every movie or TV show that I stream, does not matter which service, get disconnected from the internet and I have to wait about 5 minutes before my internet connection works again. This also happens when I'm doing my work over the internet, so it's just not because I'm streaming. I even cancelled my Netflix membership because I can't stream reliably during these mentioned hours. So I get the downsides to both streaming or physical media but I'm still in favor of physical media because of the audio/image quality and I don't have to rely on my internet connection, my internet connection drops out more often than me receiving a damaged disc or a defective disc. If my internet connection was 100% stable then I probably would not have gone back to physical media for movies.

[Rich1631]

Right now streaming is kinda iffy as you all have said. However, it's only going to continue to improve...it's still in its infancy.

[twobelowpar]

Digital for convenience and price (via codes, D2D, etc)
Physical for films that are among my favourites and worth watching in the best possible quality.