Dropping blu for 4k

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

As a committed front projection guy, I'll never have the hardware to fully appreciate HDR.

Have you read the articles by Kris Deering for JVC projectors and their DTM?

I too have front projection (Sony VW600) with a 133" 2.35 screen. Waiting for CEDIA 2021 to see if anything new is introduced.

[Vilya]

I haven't even entirely abandoned VHS and laserdisc yet.

I do not foresee ever bailing on blu-ray. The selection on 4K disc is still very small compared to what is available on blu-ray and sometimes the quality uptick with a 4K disc is negligible at best.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I can't believe there's anywhere in Canada where bandwith is poor enough to make that statement true.

A lot of factors come into play.

Not just the bandwidth.

I have a few DVDs left of things I like that never made it to Blu but are available streaming in HD.

One example is one of my all time favorite films - Earth Girls Are Easy



I have the DVD and I've seen it in HD on Prime (yuk, terrible blocky mess) and own it in HD on iTunes (better but soft)

My DVD has better sound. Maybe on HD streaming it's just an upconvert anyway. We all know a lot of 4K content is in fact upconverted.

A lot of times it just comes down to the mastering so if something gets a much better remastering when it goes to HD or if the DVD was dreadful then it's no contest.

Another film I love is The Times of Harvey Milk and I have that on DVD while a Criterion Blu Ray is reasonably priced and tempting... But ... I think the source material more than anything would hold that one back from any magic of remastering. It's old video footage most of which was never HD to begin with.

My suggestion is find out for yourself if you are open minded enough to check it out. In most cases a DVD will have to be upsampled maybe even to 4K... I have a few DVDs that are still easily watch able and I don't have to bog down the network for everyone else in the house.

-Brian

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by bhampton

A lot of factors come into play.

Not just the bandwidth.

I have a few DVDs left of things I like that never made it to Blu but are available streaming in HD.

One example is one of my all time favorite films - Earth Girls Are Easy.

I have the DVD and I've seen it in HD on Prime (yuk) and own it in HD on iTunes.

My DVD has better sound. Maybe on HD streaming it's just an upconvert anyway.

A lot of times it just comes down to the mastering so if something gets a much better remastering when it goes to HD or if the DVD was dreadful then it's no contest.

Anyways, I'm not preaching gospel ... My suggestion is find out for yourself if you are open minded enough to check it out. In most cases a DVD will have to be upsampled maybe even to 4K... I have a few DVDs that are still easily watch able and I don't have to bog down the network for everyone else in the house.

-Brian

My mind is open to the possibility, that in some exceptionally rare circumstances, with a fringe title, that a DVD can offer a better presentation than an HD stream.

Not trying to be argumentative, but your original statement was that "DVD is still better than HD streaming" implying that this was the case at least better than half the time. As it stands, in the absence of major bandwith issues, this is virtually never the case.

I used to be a hardcore physical media guy and am still of the opinion that it will never die. For a title that I absolutely love, I will opt for the best possible presentation and go physical. But the gap in quality is shrinking every day - so much so that I do find myself streaming with increasing frequency- especially when a title is available on streaming first.

I used to wait 3 to 6 months for titles to be available on LD in widescreen after they were available on VHS in pan and scan. That was worth it for me. I wouldn't wait an extra day for a UHD of an "everyday" title that I could stream in 4K today.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bhampton

A lot of factors come into play.

One would think that folks that come here would know this. The Abyss, available as HD on Prime. Looks like poop and is P&S, really . My DVD looks better and has OAR.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

But the gap in quality is shrinking every day - so much so that I do find myself streaming with increasing frequency- especially when a title is available on streaming first.

Now you are making a statement with no technical references to back-up such a statement. H.262, H.264 and H.265 have been with us for years. There has been small incremental improvements in encoders for these codecs over the years but most streamers have been using these improvements to lower the bit rate of their streams.

Sony Bravia was supposed to stream some of their own content at up to 80 Mbps with the claim that it would approach UHD Blu-ray quality. Audio is lossy DTS 5.1.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

My mind is open to the possibility, that in some exceptionally rare circumstances, with a fringe title, that a DVD can offer a better presentation than an HD stream.

I think the best example is some of the DVD's releases that are 16.9, where as some broadcaster released the same content for the first few season as 4:3 then it was seen streaming that way also. StarGate SG1 was a example of that. In fact there are other numerous examples out there, related to broadcast content. Then you have the niche super-bit DVD's, and BD's that were sourced from original lower resolution DVD master and upscaled and issued as BD's.

Now we all know we have 4K UHD media in a lot of instances that were not remastered but just 2K DI adding HDR and less noise bring out additional details depending on the digital intermediate video quality.

There is also the issue of video processing quality with the BD player. It in itself can add digital artifacts when playing of DVDs.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Now you are making a statement with no technical references to back-up such a statement. H.262, H.264 and H.265 have been with us for years. There has been small incremental improvements in encoders for these codecs over the years but most streamers have been using these improvements to lower the bit rate of their streams.

Sony Bravia was supposed to stream some of their own content at up to 80 Mbps with the claim that it would approach UHD Blu-ray quality. Audio is lossy DTS 5.1.

My statement used about as much technical reference as the point I was refuting. As you have noted, there are many factors at play, including the one I referenced twice- namely bandwith.
Even if the compression hasn't changed, most ISPs in competitive markets have had to up their game ensuring that bottlenecks leading to artifacts happen less today than 5 years ago.

I have plenty of DVDs left. In most cases, their 4K and 1080p streamed counterparts make them look unwatchable in comparison on my system. I guess your experience is different.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by bhampton

A lot of factors come into play.

Not just the bandwidth.

-Brian

The only PM Quality I'll give you an edge on is UHD Discs, because I don't have a Player to compare. These comparisons are all subjective, but IMO with enough Bandwidth and Hardwired HD Streaming Quality beats DVD and equals BD!

[Laservampire]

I'm more excited for 4K as an excuse to properly remaster older titles, rather than it being a superior format to blu-ray.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The only PM Quality I'll give you an edge on is UHD Discs, because I don't have a Player to compare. These comparisons are all subjective, but IMO with enough Bandwidth and Hardwired HD Streaming Quality beats DVD and equals BD!

You never take into fact that a better 4K TV display with excellent video processing, and the SoC doing video processor built into the UHD BD player makes a difference? It does. There is nothing subjective about quality of either making a difference with PQ.

Look everyone know about the Value Electronics shootout for TV's. All the sets are calibrated then PQ is compared by many pairs of eyes. You think a QLED set is as impressive as a OLED, not year after year. So while we do talk about the PQ of media these sets can also highlight better imperfections with the video quality of what you're playing. Yes both streaming and physical media content.

Projector quality also makes a serious difference when judging PQ of content.

[bhampton]

I should have said DVD can be better than HD streaming.

I remember when DVD was the absolute BEST thing unless someone had a great LaserDisc setup.

Back then a lot of energy went into proper playback of both of those formats.

It's certainly true that UHD BD players are not all equal when it comes to DVD playback these days.

One of the factors I even forgot about completely is some things just aren't available in one format or the other.

If you do the best with what you have that seems to be the winning strategy.

When you have no bars, DVD still works. I need to read through the open matte DVD thread and laugh about all the various things you can see on DVD or VHS that have been lost which for the most part is a good thing. Open matte doesn't tend to be the right aspect ratio but getting the right aspect ratio is a valid reason to use one format over the other.

I used to have open matte version of Terminator 3 on DVD and there were a couple of great reasons why I should have kept it.


-Brian

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The only PM Quality I'll give you an edge on is UHD Discs, because I don't have a Player to compare. These comparisons are all subjective, but IMO with enough Bandwidth and Hardwired HD Streaming Quality beats DVD and equals BD!

If you think HD hardwired streaming equals Blu Ray, I don't agree.

From the science angle, The movie I mentioned above EGAE is one that I have the HD streaming version of because Apple lets you download them. It's size is 4.2GB and would fit comfortably on a DVD. The actual streaming version could be bigger and better than what Apple lets you download.

The size of a typical movie on Blu Ray with a single soundtrack is about 25GB or 5 times that. Sony and Kaliedescape have Blu Ray quality streaming and iTunes and Vudu do not.

The new codecs are efficient but please don't throw out 80% of the data.

Go experience a good home theater and get some perspective.

You know lossless audio exists and you also know your bluetooth headphones don't support it. If you don't want to learn at least don't try to insist we all accept your level of interest.


On topic of dropping Blu Ray - > Sound and Vision has an article on donating to VA hospitals. Don't trash them.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...s-va-hospitals

-Brian

[crutzulee]

I guess it comes down to what your priorities are. For me they are.

1) OAR ( I custom matt each movie individually)
2) Preferred version of film (ie director's cut/theatrical)
3) Picture quality
4) Uncompressed audio

So I will watch a 480i (LD) source over a 4K source if the former is in OAR and the latter is pan and scan. I will not watch a 480p source with a better audio track over a 1080p source with compressed audio.

Back in the day, I had a pretty decent LD setup run through a line doubler to a ridiculously heavy 3 gun SONY projector. Pre internet, I remember trade magazines describing LD and early DVD transfers as "film like". I chuckle when I think of that now. While I've never described either of those formats in those terms, I have felt that way about my share of 4K and 1080P sources (even some streaming presentations) in comparison.

[Wendell R. Breland]

In 2015 I used to steam UHD content (House of Cards) from Netflix at 16 Mbps via a Sony FMP-X10. At the time we had a 25 Mbps ISP plan. Now we have a 300 Mbps plan that speed test shows between 260 to 290 Mbps. Netflix server test via a Nvidia Shield Pro shows a speed of around 220 Mbps, same test via a Roku Ultra and Sony UBP-X1000 shows a speed of around 90 Mbps because both are wired and use 100Base-T ports. The Shield uses a 1000Base-T port.

Nowadays Netflix UHD streams show between 6 to 11 Mbps. HD streams used to be about 7 Mbps, now they can be as low as 3 Mbps.

Netflix has changed their speed index site (here) and no longer has past years on it. Today the top average is about 3.6 Mbps, 5 years ago it was about 3.0 Mbps.

Have stated many times that IPTV providers want smaller and smaller file sizes because storage and transport cost money.

[bhampton]

For heavy 3 gun projectors, mine were mostly Sony also.

Sony VPH1271, Electrohome 8500, Sony G70

I guess 2 out of 3 CRT FP were Sony but all my digital projectors have been Sony SXRD.

I can still enjoy the occasional DVD on my 4k projector but naturally there's lots of new stuff.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bhampton

For heavy 3 gun projectors, mine were mostly Sony also.

. My first was a Kloss Novabeam Model 1A with 3 CRT's. Second one was a JVC DILA, first JVC with native 19x9 and DVI port. Third a Sony VW600, fourth is TBD.

[Show spoiler]

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by bhampton

For heavy 3 gun projectors, mine were mostly Sony also.

Sony VPH1271, Electrohome 8500, Sony G70

I guess 2 out of 3 CRT FP were Sony but all my digital projectors have been Sony SXRD.

I can still enjoy the occasional DVD on my 4k projector but naturally there's lots of new stuff.

I had the VPH1271 and still sometimes miss the constant tinkering with the convergence pattern and the ability to truly blank out parts of the screen (somewhat eliminating the need to matt and for getting rid of Japanese sub titles on LDs).

Perhaps the quality difference in our present projectors accounts for the difference in what we are seeing in DVD upscaling. I've not come across a title that I have on DVD that I would choose over an available 1080p stream.
I have a few titles that have probably seen their last pressing on DVD. I no longer own an LD player so my ABYSS, TRUE LIES and STAR WARS faces discs are just collecting dust.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

Perhaps the quality difference in our present projectors accounts for the difference in what we are seeing in DVD upscaling.

While the Sony VW600 does a good job of 720 (DVD) > 3840 the Oppo UDP-203 works even better. As stated previously, I will take a DVD with OAR (2.39) over a IPTV HD that is P&S. Have a few IPTV titles that are HD and 2.39 while my DVD version is P&S so very much prefer the IPTV version.

Have a few titles on D-VHS D-Theater because there is no HD version anywhere else.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

While the Sony VW600 does a good job of 720 (DVD) > 3840 the Oppo UDP-203 works even better. As stated previously, I will take a DVD with OAR (2.39) over a IPTV HD that is P&S. Have a few IPTV titles that are HD and 2.39 while my DVD version is P&S so very much prefer the IPTV version.

Have a few titles on D-VHS D-Theater because there is no HD version anywhere else.

OAR is the primary concern....On this we agree