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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Displays > Plasma TVs


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Old 11-12-2019, 05:55 PM   #361
saprano saprano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
There always will be loyal Pioneer Kuro owners, who'll refuse to admit that there are better TVs on the market. Anybody who said Kuros looks better than a OLED 4K TVs is strictly in denial, and don't want to upgrade because of loyalty to their Kuros.
Opinions and preference, how do they work?

You do know there are those who have both the kuro and OLED and make comparisons saying they prefer the picture of the kuro. It isn't just kuro only owners. And what do you any of you expect from people who spent thousands on these TV's? They are very strict when to comes PQ. Some find the overall performance from kuros still unbeatable. Saying we don't want to admit there are "better" TV's is nonsense. Cause it alot of ways that isn't even true-

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/table/10398

Look at those viewing angle ratings on those supposed new and better TV's. Plasmas have no such issues. It's uniformity and off angle picture is still way better. That's just one of the many other PQ related issues these new TV's have that plasmas do better at.

I can flip your last point back to you; That it's 4K owners that are in denial and don't want to accept that a 1080p plasma can still look better than these brand new televisions.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:07 AM   #362
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I can flip your last point back to you; That it's 4K owners that are in denial and don't want to accept that a 1080p plasma can still look better than these brand new televisions.
True that, brother!!
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:46 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post
I can flip your last point back to you; That it's 4K owners that are in denial and don't want to accept that a 1080p plasma can still look better than these brand new televisions.
The day when I say a plasma looks better than a OLED 4K TV (which it doesn't) is when I'm a corpse and come back as a zombie.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:55 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
There always will be loyal Pioneer Kuro owners, who'll refuse to admit that there are better TVs on the market. Anybody who said Kuros looks better than a OLED 4K TVs is strictly in denial, and don't want to upgrade because of loyalty to their Kuros.
I don't own a Kuro, but what I do know is that back in the day when I saw a Kuro, the quality of the image took my breath away. Playing a movie, it had incredibly great color and was so cinematic. While many of the high end 4K sets do have great quality PQ, IMO they don't look as good as I remember the Kuro looking. JMO.

What would be nice is to see a Kuro in a shootout with the current 4K TVs to see if I still feel the same way.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:32 AM   #365
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I have a basic 50" Panny plasma and it plays BDs and dvds* very nicely - It has banding issues but I can live with that. After many attempts I have not seen a 4K tv which gives a better picture. My concern is that when my tv dies all my discs are going to look bad and need replacing with UHD discs.

*Yesterday I plugged in a N64 and it wasn't too bad!
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:17 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by figrin_dan View Post
I have a basic 50" Panny plasma and it plays BDs and dvds* very nicely - It has banding issues but I can live with that. After many attempts I have not seen a 4K tv which gives a better picture. My concern is that when my tv dies all my discs are going to look bad and need replacing with UHD discs.

*Yesterday I plugged in a N64 and it wasn't too bad!
Just check local classified ads when your Panny dies... you can usually find a mid-level S/ST series 50-60" for $350-550. Costs you a quarter of what a half decent new OLED will, and would still outperform it in 9 out of 10 aspects of PQ.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:16 AM   #367
Robert Zohn Robert Zohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post
Opinions and preference, how do they work?

You do know there are those who have both the kuro and OLED and make comparisons saying they prefer the picture of the kuro. It isn't just kuro only owners. And what do you any of you expect from people who spent thousands on these TV's? They are very strict when to comes PQ. Some find the overall performance from kuros still unbeatable. Saying we don't want to admit there are "better" TV's is nonsense. Cause it alot of ways that isn't even true-

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/table/10398

Look at those viewing angle ratings on those supposed new and better TV's. Plasmas have no such issues. It's uniformity and off angle picture is still way better. That's just one of the many other PQ related issues these new TV's have that plasmas do better at.

I can flip your last point back to you; That it's 4K owners that are in denial and don't want to accept that a 1080p plasma can still look better than these brand new televisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
I don't own a Kuro, but what I do know is that back in the day when I saw a Kuro, the quality of the image took my breath away. Playing a movie, it had incredibly great color and was so cinematic. While many of the high end 4K sets do have great quality PQ, IMO they don't look as good as I remember the Kuro looking. JMO.

What would be nice is to see a Kuro in a shootout with the current 4K TVs to see if I still feel the same way.
I'm the biggest PDP and specifically a Kuro fanboy, however, it's not true that they deliver a better picture than a 4K HDR OLED TV. I still own and use my 50" KRP-500M, with the 10th generation plasma panel. The only thing better on a good PDP is motion resolution and very slightly off axis viewing.

We used my KRP-500 as our reference display at our annual TV Shootout Evaluation events right up to 2013 and we also had the first consumer 1080p OLED, 55EA8800 included in the TV Shootout and an OLED TV has won every year since then. 2013 was also the very first year a mass production new TV would have beat the mighty Kuro.

In 2014 we moved to Sony BVM-X300 RGB 4K HDR OLED monitor as our reference display as the 2004 Kuro was finally dethroned and we need to up our game on the reference display.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:38 PM   #368
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We go trough this every other while. We all obviously disagree. Some think OLED is better, others don't. I can find an equal amout of people that have their preference.

Fact is no LCD or OLED can replicate the look of a plasma. OLED still has noticeable limitations compared to plasma. If i and others felt OLED was a replacement for a kuro, i would have one already.

Build quality is not even close. TV's now look like they're about to fall apart.

Last edited by saprano; 11-15-2019 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:51 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
I don't own a Kuro, but what I do know is that back in the day when I saw a Kuro, the quality of the image took my breath away. Playing a movie, it had incredibly great color and was so cinematic. While many of the high end 4K sets do have great quality PQ, IMO they don't look as good as I remember the Kuro looking. JMO.

What would be nice is to see a Kuro in a shootout with the current 4K TVs to see if I still feel the same way.
I feel this exact same way. When first saw a kuro playing TDK prologue, i couldn't believe what i was seeing. I've never seen a natural and realistic looking picture like that before. Every time i went back and watched different types of content on it it kept looking better. Told myself there's no way i'm not buying this TV.

These new TV's do look nice, nothing has wowed me yet like the kuro did (does).

Last edited by saprano; 11-15-2019 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:13 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post
I feel this exact same way. When first saw a kuro playing TDK prologue, i couldn't believe what i was seeing. I've never seen a natural and realistic looking picture like that before. Every time i went back and watched different types of content on it it kept looking better. Told myself there's no way i'm not buying this TV.

These new TV's do look nice, nothing has wowed me yet like the kuro did (does).
It's like seeing HD for the first time from years of watching 480i. You never forget that moment. Then comparing that to seeing 4K for the first time after years of watching 1080p. The impact just isn't the same. Its "better" but not orders of magnitude better. Thats how I feel about OLED VS Plasma.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:49 PM   #371
Twm1988 Twm1988 is online now
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post
We go trough this every other while. We all obviously disagree. Some think OLED is better, others don't. I can find an equal amout of people that have their preference.

Fact is no LCD or OLED can replicate the look of a plasma. OLED still has noticeable limitations compared to plasma. If i and others felt OLED was a replacement for a kuro, i would have one already.

Build quality is not even close. TV's now look like they're about to fall apart.
Agreed.

I will say there are a couple areas where OLED's may outperform Plasma (brightness, crispness and such), but it simply comes down to the overall final picture presentation in the end... and everything the plasma's do to create the naturalness and realism wins every time for me. Any motion problems at all are unacceptable and an immediate deal breaker for me right off the bat.

Who cares if you can see a bit more microscopic detail in a close-up of someone's face, or that an OLED TV is bright enough to light up your entire house... they've become so overly analytical about everything, wanting as much detail and clarity as possible that they've forgotten to make sure it still produces a proper, natural presentation.

Overall the final best picture presentation (in the sense of most natural, realistic and filmic) still belongs to Plasma. OLED wins if you're only concerned about getting the most detail, crispness and brightness (wow factor) and don't mind sacrificing the realism and naturalness.

Maybe these things will slowly improve over time with OLED's, but now with everything going above and beyond 4K and higher and higher resolution, I think that the pursuit of more and more detail will only get worse... not to mention 8K is almost entirely useless in 99% of homes, unless you have a 175-200"+ projector screen, but they still are going after higher and higher resolution and making 8K TV's as small as 75" or so. That's ridiculous and it's NOT producing "better" performing TV's.

It seems naturalness and proper motion presentation are the absolute last things that current TV manufacturer's are interested in.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:34 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
I don't own a Kuro, but what I do know is that back in the day when I saw a Kuro, the quality of the image took my breath away. Playing a movie, it had incredibly great color and was so cinematic. While many of the high end 4K sets do have great quality PQ, IMO they don't look as good as I remember the Kuro looking. JMO.

What would be nice is to see a Kuro in a shootout with the current 4K TVs to see if I still feel the same way.
All LG OLED's, (although I heard the the C-9's are better) crushes blacks. In that area they comes up short compared to the Pioneer Kuro.
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Old 11-16-2019, 07:18 PM   #373
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It really doesn't matter because, the Pioneer Kuros have been discontinued 20 years ago, and all Plasma TVs had stopped being produced since 2014. Nobody could buy a brand new Kuro if they wanted one, so if anybody wanted to buy a new TV, they would have to get either a OLED, LED, LCD or a QLED anyway.

Last edited by slimdude; 11-16-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 09:20 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
It really doesn't matter because, the Pioneer Kuros have been discontinued 20 years ago, and all Plasma TVs had stopped being produced since 2014. Nobody could buy a brand new Kuro if they wanted one, so if anybody wanted to buy a new TV, they would have to get either a OLED, LED, LCD or a QLED anyway.
True, but the used and second-hand market still present great opportunities for many Panny, Samsung and LG plasma's to be had at excellent prices.

Beyond that, I'd be looking at a projector and screen setup before giving in to an LED of any kind... even if it was just a 60" projector screen.
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:04 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Twm1988 View Post
True, but the used and second-hand market still present great opportunities for many Panny, Samsung and LG plasma's to be had at excellent prices.

Beyond that, I'd be looking at a projector and screen setup before giving in to an LED of any kind... even if it was just a 60" projector screen.
It wouldn't be wise to buy any used TV without a warranty. Besides the price that you pay for a used TV, you can get a brand new one almost for the same price with a warranty.

Last edited by slimdude; 11-16-2019 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:09 PM   #376
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Well

Last night I hooked up my Panasonic 9000 UhD player to my friends LGB8

I usually use a pioneer kuro 500m that Iíve adjusted voltages to give me deep blacks

Surprised would be an under statement

LGís video processing is poor which is probably why u never see an LG monitor in a grading suite or post facility

Watching The Apartment an excellent black and white film compressed from memory by David Mackenzie , the right side of the oled screen had a green tint . Total deal breaker for me

MelGibson in the The Patriot UHD - the scene where he chases red coats through a forest after murdering his son , the outlines of his body ďbreak upĒ

I recall a chap in Germany showing how lgís motion processing is garbage compared to top tier oleds - u could see the soccer ball break up and transiently disappear - he has the u tube video posted . Laughable

My next goal is to hook up to a Panasonic GZ2000 and hopefully see an improvement but at this stage I hope my kuro lives a while longer

Itís one thing for LG to win shoot outs based on calibration charts and colour spaces and brightness levels , but now I know what people are on about when the talk about OLED motion , but I wonder if itís largely due to LGís abysmal processing

Maybe one day we will have native refresh rates of 240hz and a different backplane with BFI . If I was forced to buy an oled today it would have to be either Sony or Panasonic , two companies that have at least a 40 year background in broadcast and video post production not from a company that used to make washing machines and bought a patent from Kodak
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Old 11-16-2019, 11:45 PM   #377
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It wouldn't be wise to buy any used TV without a warranty. Besides the price that you pay for a used TV, you can get a brand new one almost for the same price with a warranty.
Yes, buying anything used you should be careful and do your due diligence. I purchase a great deal of my audio equipment used and as long as you check things out and make sure there are no signs of physical damage or abuse,... I have had zero problems buying used myself.

There was a Panny 60" VT30 on my local classifieds last month for $550 that I should have jumped on. The kind of LED you could buy brand new with warranty today for $550 is utterly horrendous. I haven't seen any $4000-5000 LED's that I prefer to my plasma, so I can only imagine the horror of a $550 LED trying to impress me, lol!
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Old 11-16-2019, 11:50 PM   #378
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" but now I know what people are on about when the talk about OLED motion "
Yep, your findings that you posted sum it up perfectly

I would, however, be curious to hear your findings about how the motion presentation of the Panasonic GZ2000 compares if you ever have the chance to try it.

Last edited by Twm1988; 11-17-2019 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:54 AM   #379
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I haven't seen any $4000-5000 LED's that I prefer to my plasma, so I can only imagine the horror of a $550 LED trying to impress me, lol!
When push comes to shove, I would rather buy a 4K LED TV than a obsolete, used 20 year old Kuro with no warranty.

Last edited by slimdude; 11-17-2019 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:22 AM   #380
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When push comes to shove, I would rather buy a 4K LED TV than a obsolete, used 20 year old Kuro with no warranty.
Doesn't have to be a 20yr old Pioneer... a 5yr old upper level/flagship Panny is fairly easy to find and will come damn close to the Kuro performance.

I'd rather have a used plasma that gives me beautiful picture quality for a few years, than a new OLED that giver me miserable PQ for 5-7yrs... or however long they even last these days.

Definitely understand and respect your point on buying used though, even though I'm at the opposite side of it
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