Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I know I'm replying to this way after the fact (and PenguinInfinity deleting all of his posts was odd)...

I don't think you are a "jerk" for your preferences. And I don't take quite as extreme of a stance as PenguinInfinity does. I do have some digital games that were only sold that way, for example. But I far prefer physical and always opt for it.

That said, I do think that there is some degree of hypocrisy on your part, given the extreme comments that you make regarding movies.

Obviously quality is your top concern, and discs still offer the top quality for movies typically, while games tend to be the same whether on physical media or downloaded.

But you have made a lot of statements about concern over digitally distributed movies, including people mainly consuming it on small screens, etc., and how that can effect the availability of large TVs, quality of movies, etc. in the future.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for having a personal preference of movies over video games in that regard. But at the same time, you have showed concern (to the extent of going off of the extreme deep end on a pretty regular basis) about how the choices of others can potentially negatively impact your access to movies at the quality and in the manner that you prefer to enjoy them. You apparently want others to take that into consideration, but when it comes to a medium (video games in this case) that isn't as important to you, but is equally if not more so to someone else as movies are to you, you are pretty dismissive of that concern, and don't even take into consideration how people adopting habits akin to yours can negatively impact the future of that medium and how others enjoy it.

Pot, meet Kettle.







While I disagree with him calling people jerks, I do otherwise agree about long term access.

Comparing a potentially constantly reusable product like a video game to something that will either go bad after a while or can only be consumed once like a steak is not a valid comparison.


I also think the word "entitled" is thrown around way too often with little to no consideration. If no one is "entitled" to something after it goes out of print, does that mean that the movie studios and gaming publishers should have the right to come into our homes and take away physical copies of movies/games that have gone out of print?

Many people buy content with the intent of revisiting it later. Some people buy it in such large quantities that it takes them a long time to get to it all. It is a valid concern if someone buys a game "today" that they might not be able to play "tomorrow" (relatively speaking).

Yes, servers to online games do get shut down after a while. I'm not thrilled about that. But there are plenty of games that have single player and offline multiplayer modes. Those games shouldn't come with the same concerns.

Further, given how games these days are more and more reliant on patches, add-on dlc, and the like, making even many physical copies dependent on online, and in the case of add-on content, coming at an additional cost, many games cost a lot more to get the complete experience, but with the likely hood of losing access to some or all of that content in time being far more likely. It's hardly a fair trade off by any reasonable measure.

While I'm more loose in this regard then Penguin (I do buy some dlc, download only games, etc.), I still buy physical copies whenever the option exists (even recently importing a Nintendo Switch game that was only available digitally in the US), and even wait for or upgrade to later editions that include a lot of past dlc on the disc. I only dabble in online multiplayer sparingly, and I don't buy games that depend on it.

While there is no guarantee that this stuff will work until I'm "in a nursing home," there is an inherent principle in terms of me spending my money on things that are at least within a reasonable degree of my own control. If one game is a non-starter for me because I don't like the limitations or how it is being offered (don't get me started on the prospect of games being streamed and not even downloaded), then I'll stick with the ones that are acceptable to me in that regard.


Given that games that I bought 30+ years ago can still be easily used today, the idea of me paying more with add-on content and such (even after adjusting for inflation) for some games and having long term access to them be far less guaranteed it just something that is frankly absurd.

So, should I only buy designer suits then? Or only eat the very finest foods and refuse anything less if I am invited to a dinner party? My preference is for film. Why would I show the same concerns for a hobby that I’m not quite as passionate about? Digital games are EXACTLY the same quality plus games are generally a one off experience unless we are talking multi year online (GTA for example). I game a lot but my HT is reserved for film.

I went Digital decades ago through Steam. I still have access to the early games I bought on there. Film is different. Especially with streaming services going the exclusive route.

[Steedeel]

It’s double standards, I have been called all kinds of things in this thread through the years. Many posts have gone over the line in my opinion and the only reason people didn’t get suspended or banned is that I didn’t report it. Why is everyone suddenly developing a conscience?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

So, should I only buy designer suits then? Or only eat the very finest foods and refuse anything less if I am invited to a dinner party? My preference is for film. Why would I show the same concerns for a hobby that I’m not quite as passionate about? Digital games are EXACTLY the same quality plus games are generally a one off experience unless we are talking multi year online (GTA for example). I game a lot but my HT is reserved for film.

Suits and finest foods are not an apt comparison at all. That has nothing to do with the implications of digital vs physical media. In general there isn't that huge of a difference price wise between digital and physical games. If anything, physical versions drop in price faster. You are grasping at straws here.

You can do whatever you want. My point is that you get very concerned about what others do in terms of how they enjoy film, and how that could effect the market going forward, and by extension your ability to continue to enjoy film in the manner that you prefer.

But when others express similar concerns over how some people, including you, consume another medium and how it effects them, you are pretty dismissive, as you were here. You seem to expect others to share your concern about film and get particularly upset and agitated when they don't, but then you are doing the exact same thing as them in regards to another medium.

If you weren't so over-the-top about your concerns regarding film, then your dismissive attitude towards gaming wouldn't be nearly as hypocritical as it is now.

Do you not see the contradiction?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It’s double standards, I have been called all kinds of things in this thread through the years. Many posts have gone over the line in my opinion and the only reason people didn’t get suspended or banned is that I didn’t report it. Why is everyone suddenly developing a conscience?

While I don't take the same degree of extreme concerns as you about large TVs going away and everyone watching movies on smart watches, in general when it comes to film, I'm on your side, or at least lean far more in your favor than I do those opting for digital distribution.

I also look at gaming from the same perspective. I just see a contradiction on your part, with all due respect, in which you aren't extending the same general "courtesy" to others that you wish for them to extend to you. That is all.

I doubt that your lack of reporting things was the end all/be all difference between people getting banned/suspended or not. Mods still check threads even without specific things being reported. If anyone was repeatedly THAT far out of line, it would have caught up with them by now.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

While I don't take the same degree of extreme concerns as you about large TVs going away and everyone watching movies on smart watches, in general when it comes to film, I'm on your side, or at least lean far more in your favor than I do those opting for digital distribution.

I also look at gaming from the same perspective. I just see a contradiction on your part, with all due respect, in which you aren't extending the same general "courtesy" to others that you wish for them to extend to you. That is all.

I doubt that your lack of reporting things was the end all/be all difference between people getting banned/suspended or not. Mods still check threads even without specific things being reported. If anyone was repeatedly THAT far out of line, it would have caught up with them by now.

I didn’t say any one person repeatedly to be fair. Just that comments have been posted through the years.

As for your other points, general courtesy? Are you kidding me? I gave up expecting that a long time ago from some posters.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Suits and finest foods are not an apt comparison at all. That has nothing to do with the implications of digital vs physical media. In general there isn't that huge of a difference price wise between digital and physical games. If anything, physical versions drop in price faster. You are grasping at straws here.

You can do whatever you want. My point is that you get very concerned about what others do in terms of how they enjoy film, and how that could effect the market going forward, and by extension your ability to continue to enjoy film in the manner that you prefer.

But when others express similar concerns over how some people, including you, consume another medium and how it effects them, you are pretty dismissive, as you were here. You seem to expect others to share your concern about film and get particularly upset and agitated when they don't, but then you are doing the exact same thing as them in regards to another medium.

If you weren't so over-the-top about your concerns regarding film, then your dismissive attitude towards gaming wouldn't be nearly as hypocritical as it is now.

Do you not see the contradiction?

Yes I do but digital games are an established format that has been around for decades. That’s not true of digital films. Nor are we likely to get a pixel for pixel perfect copy of a 4K disc or Blu-ray on a digital format.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

As for your other points, general courtesy? Are you kidding me? I gave up expecting that a long time ago from some posters.

I meant that in a larger overall context, not limited to this thread.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yes I do but digital games are an established format that has been around for decades. That’s not true of digital films. Nor are we likely to get a pixel for pixel perfect copy of a 4K disc or Blu-ray on a digital format.

While I see your point about disc and digitally distributed movies not being equal pixel-for-pixel (while video games, by comparison, typically are identical in that sense) the portion that I bolded really makes no sense in this context, or in most any context really.

Video games have always been digital in terms of the content/data, but digital distribution (meaning over the internet) of games is still a relatively new/young concept. It's only slightly older than movies being distributed this way, and the access implications are the same for when and if a piece of content is removed for purchase or if a service goes under. If anything, there are arguably larger issues with gaming than with movies (i.e. does it make sense for Sony and MS to indefinitely maintain gamers' access to data from past consoles that have since been retired).

This issue is completely different than some past physical movie formats being analog as opposed to digital. It's about the method of distribution, not the format of the data. And even if it was about the format of the data, then even on Blu-Ray and 4K discs, the data is still digital, so even in that context your statement wouldn't really make any sense.

You may as well have just said that you have to buy your dog canned dog food instead of bagged because the sky is blue. It would make about as much sense as what you just said here.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I meant that in a larger overall context, not limited to this thread.



While I see your point about disc and digitally distributed movies not being equal pixel-for-pixel (while video games, by comparison, typically are identical in that sense) the portion that I bolded really makes no sense in this context, or in most any context really.

Video games have always been digital in terms of the content/data, but digital distribution (meaning over the internet) of games is still a relatively new/young concept. It's only slightly older than movies being distributed this way, and the access implications are the same for when and if a piece of content is removed for purchase or if a service goes under. If anything, there are arguably larger issues with gaming than with movies (i.e. does it make sense for Sony and MS to indefinitely maintain gamers' access to data from past consoles that have since been retired).

This issue is completely different than some past physical movie formats being analog as opposed to digital. It's about the method of distribution, not the format of the data. And even if it was about the format of the data, then even on Blu-Ray and 4K discs, the data is still digital, so even in that context your statement wouldn't really make any sense.

You may as well have just said that you have to buy your dog canned dog food instead of bagged because the sky is blue. It would make about as much sense as what you just said here.

All I mean is the fight is lost for games. It’s either stop gaming (if I couldn’t play on a large monitor, trust me I would) or go digital. If the quality was downgraded Idare say I wouldn’t have bothered.

Sure, you can still buy discs but the market is too far gone the other way now for games on disc to make a comeback. You can’t fight something that is already gone.

With film, data caps and NN could still play a part in turning people off digital.

[Vilya]

In my continued efforts to support physical media, and my insatiable movie appetite, I bought 24 titles today and all from online sources. I am importing a couple more 3D titles from Amazon.uk as well.

I also decided to finally buy a region free mod kit for my Oppo. I plan to attach it to my older Oppo 93 and if it works with it, I will just leave it set to Region B and make that player my dedicated Region B machine. The Oppo 93 is still a great blu-ray player and combined with my 4K TV, I think it will work great.

I do not think I have ever encountered any Region C discs.

If necessary, I will attach it to my Oppo 203, but I really like the idea of having a player always set to Region B.

I am very happy to be able to buy discs from anywhere in the world without paying any more attention to region coding. I should have done this a lot sooner.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

alchav21, I just like to see everyone making statements deal in verifiable facts. Keeps down confusion and conflicts. I am knowledgeable in certain areas, had to be to qualify for the job I did . But compared to others, I know very little in certain areas. DRMPEG probably forgot more about video compression before breakfast than I have ever known.

Just curious, has your video display device (TV) been calibrated? If so, was the person ISF/THX certified? Do you know if you have frame interpolation on? What is the V scan rate set to?

Are you aware of or own the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition calibration disc?

Are you aware of or use the test patterns on all Sony Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray titles. If not, to access them you must be at the Main Menu and enter Sony (7669) on the numeric key pad.

I ask these questions to be better informed about what you may be looking at.

Probably not, the Best Buy Techs set up my TV when they dropped it off. None of my HDTV's have been Professionally setup. Does that mean everything I'm looking at doesn't hold to Video Quality Standards? None of my HDTV's have been calibrated to Professional Standards. I don't know half of what you are talking about, I just know the Video Quality on my TV is Fantastic! I look at the other Threads like the 4K people, and some are constantly adjusting everthing for the best Video and Audio Quality. That's not me, and I'm fine with that.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Dustin44

Alchav21 accepted your apology. And you apologized sincerely, I give you a lot of credit for that.

Exactly. I definitely feel his apology was sincere and I still like the guy.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Exactly. I definitely feel his apology was sincere and I still like the guy.

Well, life can go on now he has your seal of approval Donster!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Probably not, the Best Buy Techs set up my TV when they dropped it off. None of my HDTV's have been Professionally setup. Does that mean everything I'm looking at doesn't hold to Video Quality Standards? None of my HDTV's have been calibrated to Professional Standards. I don't know half of what you are talking about, I just know the Video Quality on my TV is Fantastic! I look at the other Threads like the 4K people, and some are constantly adjusting everthing for the best Video and Audio Quality. That's not me, and I'm fine with that.

Lets start with some terms, some of these are links:
DI = Digital Intermediate
2K DI = 2048 pixels wide
4K DI = 4096 pixels wide
HDTV = 1920 pixels wide
UHDTV = 3840 pixels wide
Movies in general = 24 (23.976) frames per second
Frame interpolation
Mosquito Noise

In order to evaluate video quality one must use a display with the least amount of video processing. That means turning off Frame Interpolation (several names for this), setting the frame rate to 24 (23.976) frames per second (for movies), turning off video noise reduction and in general, anything Auto. One should do the same for STB’s or Blu-ray or UHD Blu-ray players*. It is well known that many (all?) models of Samsung BD players use non-defeatable video noise reduction and IMHO, should be avoided.

It appears most TV’s have most of this video processing turned on by default. That is by design because the average user would prefer the “Soap Opera” effect. The same can be said about pillow box or letter box, most users want that screen filled, no matter it may cause tall, skinny people or short, fat people .

So you have to make a decision, leave the video processing on and have the “Soap Opera” effect or turn off processing to see what the video is really like. WARNING: in doing so, you may not like what you see . If you do want to change any settings, I would suggest you write all the current settings down and/or use a camera and take a picture of each settings screen. In the end it is your stuff and IMO, you should only do what you are comfortable with.

4K/UHD video: As of now the bulk of 4K/UHD movie based video IS NOT 4K/UHD video, most are just upscaled from 2K DI’s. There is a sticky thread here that list all titles sourced from 4K DI’s. A 4K DI does not guarantee anything unto itself.

*There are several video settings on the Oppo UDP-203 where Auto settings are recommenced and covered in the 203 thread.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

So you have to make a decision, leave the video processing on and have the “Soap Opera” effect or turn off processing to see what the video is really like. WARNING: in doing so, you may not like what you see . If you do want to change any settings, I would suggest you write all the current settings down and/or use a camera and take a picture of each settings screen. In the end it is your stuff and IMO, you should only do what you are comfortable with.

Most, if not all, new TVs have a restore to default settings option on each menu of choices. You can experiment without fear.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Well, life can go on now he has your seal of approval Donster!

Yep, means about as much as members who constantly throw their weight around and think their credentials gives them a pass on their poor behavior. But I can’t maintain what I can’t control, right? So I’ll try to move forward and get back to the original point of the thread in my next post.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Most, if not all, new TVs have a restore to default settings option on each menu of choices. You can experiment without fear.

Well I forgot to include in that post a disclaimer stating that I be a projector kind of guy and not a lot of experience in the last 14 years with direct view displays.

Also forgot to mention that to measure things like D65, color gamut, color tracking, gamma, etc. that one will need something like CalMan from SpectraCal and associated hardware.

IMO, an experienced person should be able to get a good calibration just using the S&M V2 Blu-ray disc. The Disney WOW Blu-ray disc is pretty good as well, I like the S&M better.

Another forgot - if anyone uses the resolution patterns on the Sony Blu-ray or UHD Blu-ray titles, keep in mind these patterns are in terms of: Resolution Per Picture Height.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IMO, an experienced person should be able to get a good calibration just using the S&M V2 Blu-ray disc. The Disney WOW Blu-ray disc is pretty good as well, I like the S&M better.

Unless I am mistaken, even that Spears & Munsil Volume 2 disc is very outdated and was designed only for 1080p displays. I am unaware of any calibration disc designed specifically for 4K HDR + Dolby Vision displays.

I just did a search online for recommended settings for my exact make and model of TV and used those recommendations as a starting point for my settings. Places like CNET.com, Rtings.com, and the AVS forums offer lots of opinions on how to set-up your TV. Naturally, there are differences between what they suggest, but there is also some consensus about certain settings. Even fellow forum members on this website, who happen to own the same TV, will share their settings, too.

These new TVs remember different settings for each input device as well or you can choose to have one set of choices applied to every input.

Lots of information is available, maybe too much, but much of it is free of charge. And there is always that restore to default option if experimenting goes awry.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Yep, means about as much as members who constantly throw their weight around and think their credentials gives them a pass on their poor behavior. But I can’t maintain what I can’t control, right? So I’ll try to move forward and get back to the original point of the thread in my next post.

Like I said before, too many egos in here. I include myself and you (no offence, honest!) in that as well mind. It’s a recipe for disaster to be honest.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Like I said before, too many egos in here. I include myself and you (no offence, honest!) in that as well mind. It’s a recipe for disaster to be honest.

TBH, the biggest issue is that neither side is really going to change the mind of the other side. It's a wash, babe.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Unless I am mistaken, even that Spears & Munsil Volume 2 disc is very outdated and was designed only for 1080p displays. I am unaware of any calibration disc designed specifically for 4K HDR + Dolby Vision displays.

Stacey Spears posted awhile back on AVS that they had a UHD BD version in the works but Dolby Vision was the holdup (hope I am remembering this correctly). The limited number of patterns on the Sony UHD BD are in 4K.

There is a person that has a number of UHD patterns/test for sale, available via download. Have not done it myself and will need to look it up again.

For your Oppo, did you get the internal or external region mod?

Edit: Pattern Info here and here.