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Old 01-27-2020, 02:42 PM   #841
BryanMatthew BryanMatthew is offline
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Default Playback Issue at 4K 60fps



Hey everyone, I'm posting this here for the expert members that may be able to help me out. I'm having playback issues at 4K 60fps, with the screen going black and then the image reappears, using a Z9D and Oppo-203 through a sound bar (HTST-5000). The issue is that I get some micro-stuttering and then the screen goes black for longer periods and then the image comes back (displaying Dolby Vision in top right corner each time). Micro-stutters appear unfrequently up until about 00:30:00 and then after this time, the screen tends to go black for longer periods and then reappears periodically throughout the rest of the movie. After it did this like a dozen times, I just stopped watching.

Anyone know what's going on or what I can do to fix? Is it the disc or is my HDMI cord not good enough, etc., etc.?

Any help that can be provided would be great! Thank you in advance.

Kind regards,
Bryan
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:46 PM   #842
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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See what happens if you plug the player directly into the TV.
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:51 PM   #843
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanMatthew View Post


Hey everyone, I'm posting this here for the expert members that may be able to help me out. I'm having playback issues at 4K 60fps, with the screen going black and then the image reappears, using a Z9D and Oppo-203 through a sound bar (HTST-5000). The issue is that I get some micro-stuttering and then the screen goes black for longer periods and then the image comes back (displaying Dolby Vision in top right corner each time). Micro-stutters appear unfrequently up until about 00:30:00 and then after this time, the screen tends to go black for longer periods and then reappears periodically throughout the rest of the movie. After it did this like a dozen times, I just stopped watching.

Anyone know what's going on or what I can do to fix? Is it the disc or is my HDMI cord not good enough, etc., etc.?

Any help that can be provided would be great! Thank you in advance.

Kind regards,
Bryan
I had the same issue (same player & TV) originally with Billy Lynn and it was the HDMI cables between the TV and the receiver and the player. Replaced both with ultra high bandwidth HDMI cables and the problem hasn't happened since. Gemini Man works great.
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Old 01-27-2020, 04:41 PM   #844
BryanMatthew BryanMatthew is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
I had the same issue (same player & TV) originally with Billy Lynn and it was the HDMI cables between the TV and the receiver and the player. Replaced both with ultra high bandwidth HDMI cables and the problem hasn't happened since. Gemini Man works great.
Thanks to Geoff D and PeterTHX. I'll try both options, but I should have ultra high bandwidth cables. I purchased these a while back when they were on discount (https://www.amazon.ca/Monster-Black-Platinum-Ultimate-Ethernet/dp/B016F733LE/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=monster%2Bhdmi%2B4k&qid=158014 2855&sr=8-8&th=1). I'm wondering if the cables are faulty and will try switching them out to see if that works.

Thanks again!
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Old 01-27-2020, 05:10 PM   #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanMatthew View Post
Thanks to Geoff D and PeterTHX. I'll try both options, but I should have ultra high bandwidth cables. I purchased these a while back when they were on discount (https://www.amazon.ca/Monster-Black-Platinum-Ultimate-Ethernet/dp/B016F733LE/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=monster%2Bhdmi%2B4k&qid=158014 2855&sr=8-8&th=1). I'm wondering if the cables are faulty and will try switching them out to see if that works.

Thanks again!
As a quick aside, unless you're running super long distance (>40 or 50 feet), any new HDMI cable will do just as good of a job as the overpriced Monster stuff.

Any old HDMI cable should also do, but sometimes the older ones haven't held up or just can't quite cut it.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:08 PM   #846
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanMatthew View Post
Thanks to Geoff D and PeterTHX. I'll try both options, but I should have ultra high bandwidth cables. I purchased these a while back when they were on discount (https://www.amazon.ca/Monster-Black-Platinum-Ultimate-Ethernet/dp/B016F733LE/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=monster%2Bhdmi%2B4k&qid=158014 2855&sr=8-8&th=1). I'm wondering if the cables are faulty and will try switching them out to see if that works.

Thanks again!
Yeah, I had those as a matter of fact. Reality is they're not really 27Gbps cable or there's too much resistance. I got some new ones recently
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Quote:
Originally Posted by Colson View Post
Any old HDMI cable should also do, but sometimes the older ones haven't held up or just can't quite cut it.
Yeah, I can speak to that - not every cable can reliably pass high bandwidth stuff like 60fps 2160p with HDR. So I would avoid old cables.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:15 AM   #847
BryanMatthew BryanMatthew is offline
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Thanks! I'll try these options. Really appreciate the help.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:18 AM   #848
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Just finished the film for myself and...

Looks amazing at 60fps. The flick was enjoyable as well. I'd like to see more films presented this way, but like others in the thread have said, it'd have to be the right type of film. Glad I purchased this one
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:14 PM   #849
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Finished watching my copy too. Movie kinda dull, not gonna lie. PQ looks great for the intended look. Black levels are perfect. But it does lack a filmic look. 60 fps is not the issue though. Really need to wait until another director tries this out before having a final thought.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:18 PM   #850
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Shit is demo material.

"But, but, HFR!"

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh... just look at the MEW...





Hats off to them, regarding Junior. Will Smith is a bona fide f***ing movie star, we all know what his face looks like. That's taking a big gamble and praying that WETA can pull off the goods at the end of the day, and they mostly nail it. His eyes look weird in some scenes, like there's too much space between them, but my god when it does work, it makes a mockery of something like The Irishman.

Last edited by Sky_Captain; 01-29-2020 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 01-30-2020, 12:01 AM   #851
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I'm in the middle of writing up something that pretty much says all of that only in a LOT more words but I agree 100%, when Junior works it looks astonishing and it really does dump all over what ILM did on the Irishman. That Mr Smith was happy to perform as his younger self while wearing the mocap get-up really helped them out I think, I know ILM made a lot of noise about their new tracking system that meant they didn't need all that stuff on Irishman (nor did De Niro and co want to shoot an entire movie dressed in leotards with little white dots painted on their faces every day, so ILM kinda had to do it differently) but Jesus, it's not even close to what Weta did here. What was spooky was how much he looked like Jaden Smith from certain angles as well, not so much Jaden right this second but Jaden from, say, his age in After Earth, maybe a few years older.
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:03 AM   #852
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Gemini Man (2019) Dolby Vision review. HDR metadata: P3 colour primaries. 1000/0.0010 nit max/min mastering display level. Max Content Light Level 5180 nits. Max Frame Average Light Level 1577 nits.

Gonna talk about the movie first, if you want to get to all the techy shit then scroll down like 5 paragraphs.

Let's just get this out of the way: I love HFR and I don't care who knows it. Now, I don't want to see most 24p films retrofitted into HFR any more than I would stick my hand in a blender and flip the switch, but holy shitballs HFR works like gangbusters on new stuff for me. It's like you're watching it live rather than refracted through whatever inherently 'unreal' visual stylisations the filmmakers have opted for (with a couple of exceptions, which I'll get to later). Different strokes and all that, there's a million and one creative decisions that can be made when shooting a movie and as long as it's germane to the story that's being told then I'm happy with whatever. And with Gemini Man there's a crazy sense of immersion and immediacy that the HFR brings to it, at once I just 'synced' with it (rewatching Billy Lynn's again recently was a big help in that respect) and simply enjoyed the film from there on out.

Maybe it's just me, that I actually dig HFR rather than having some kind of pathological hatred of it, but I thought the action scenes looked terrific in terms of their actual appearance in 60p HFR. People talk of the fight scenes looking horribly staged, that the motorcycle chase looks like it's going about 5mph, that the actors themselves seem like they're doing amateur dramatics but I got NONE of that when watching it. Seriously. I'm not saying other people can't feel that way but I'm the exact opposite.

The combat scenes are breathlessly swift (though encumbered by the usual western techniques of editing the crap out of them, not even HFR can do anything about that), the Colombia chase had me gripping the armrests on my chair as they zip through the streets and even the acting I thought was enhanced by the HFR, not lessened. Clive Owen's terrible in it, sure, but he's been phoning it in for years while everyone else does rather well IMO. There's a moment on Jack's boat when he hears something outside and his happy expression leaves his face and he goes for his gun, the last thing to sag on his mush is the area just under his eyes and it's wonderful to see that level of control that an actor has over their instrument, on the 24p BD it happens all too subtly to appreciate.

HFR brings up all those little tics and as Ang Lee is so obsessed with the human face (dude loves them close-ups, not just here but in many of his movies) it's not surprising that he hearts HFR so much. I am surprised that we got several little bursts of slow motion in the movie though, as IIRC Ang or someone else on the Billy Lynn's production noted that slow motion was designed so we could see things that 24p wouldn't otherwise capture, so they rhetorically asked 'what use does it have in HFR?'. Now we know: it can be used stylistically to remind us that we are still watching a movie.

The VFX on Junior is quite simply remarkable. Not perfect, as digital artists still seem to be engaged in a perennial struggle to animate the area around the mouth without it looking too rubbery, but there are plenty of moments where he looks nothing less than 100% photo real and in 4K HFR (and HDR) he damn well needs to! When Henry shines the light on him in the catacombs, oh mai. Admittedly the face replacement on the stunties looks rubbish but it rarely works well at 24p never mind in HFR so I can let that go. The end sequence does look bad (as mused upon upthread it was probably a rush job for a reshoot) but other than that Junior is a gobsmackingly good piece of VFX wizardry, driven as much by the performance as the pixels, and as a result I truly believe in Junior as a character which is probably why I also enjoyed the movie so much. Of course it's regulation Hollywood bollocks but, as Sweetie will tell you, I love pimping trash and I makes no apologies for it. More MEW in movies is also very high on my list of priorities, it gets an extra star just for her kicking some ass.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, as for the actual UHD it's sensational. It's a bit grittier than Billy Lynn's because that was shot on the 8K Sony F65 while Gemini was captured on regular Alexa at 3.2K and uprezzed to 4K, so you get more of a patina of noise as a result. Not a bad thing as it gives it a bit of texture, especially in the darker scenes, without breaking into the immersive 'you are there' aspect of the HFR. Detail still looks insanely good, not overly sharpened but so damned dense for detail if you ever wanted to count the pores on Will Smith's nose, well, now's your chance. Acuity drops off a bit in the darker scenes but again, not a problem.

The HDR is supremely effective, not just in the usual way of pulling down highlights in brighter areas (though it stops short of resolving every little thing, it still kills the SDR Blu) but it really makes a difference to the intensity of the lighting itself, I challenge you not to squint when Henry shoves the flare into Junior's face in the catacombs! Smaller points of light look similarly vibrant like the little torches that adorn the assault weapons and some of those explosive/incendiary blasts during the finale are incredibly bright too. As wowsome as the minigun sequence is I was just as impressed by a simpler shot of MEW in the catacombs holding a lit flare along with her weapon, it just looks so realistic.

Colour is nice without being overpowering, using the production design to add splashes of colour rather than attaching an overwhelming tint to the visuals themselves, like the environs of Cartagena with all those quirky pastel coloured buildings. As is so often the case the 1080p SDR version of the film adds a subtle yellow tinge which saps some of the essence of the colour in that version e.g. fire leans towards that typical jaundiced SDR look while the HDR grade makes it look rich and orangey, as well as resolving more highlight information of course.

Blacks are fine, they're deep to the point of rolling off a bit more shadow detail than I'd like as the darker spots on hair and clothing can drop off to nothingness, but one thing that I adored was the usage of good old-fashioned 'day for night' when shooting the nighttime exteriors. It's very rarely used any more (Fury Road being another example) but I find it so effective, and now that I live out in the sticks where it gets real dark once the streetlights turn off it's crazy how much light a full moon can give off, even casting some quite punchy little speculars on things like cars and you get that same effect here. It's funny that such a technologically advanced show would use such an old-school technique but the artifice actually works better than ever in HDR.

Regarding compression I have to say that it looked a fraction untidy here and there, mostly in the noise around some of the brightest speculars but I didn't see anything encoding-related on the water as noted in post #615 at all. Now I ain't saying the water doesn't look weird in that dock scene because it does, it's as if the water to the right of Henry's little boat is perfectly in focus while the area to the left as Jack's yacht approaches looks really soft and out of focus but there's no 'blocking' in there that I can see. I checked the 1080p disc in the same place and the same effect is present, albeit less visible owing to the softer resolution and more blown-out visuals, but it is there. So I can only think that it's some sort of VFX fudgery, like they combined different shots of the yacht and the smaller boat and either had to soften that patch of water in front of the yacht to blend the seams, or that the water was actually out of focus to begin with and they just merged the shots anyway.

The $64,000 question: did I have any playback problems? Nothing, nathan, nada. Played back in full-fat 4K60 DV 12-bit first time, no questions asked or raindances performed, and as such there were no blips, skips or dropouts. This was the US disc playing on a Panasonic 820 connected directly to a Sony 65ZD9 (using an HDMI cable that's closer to ten years old than not!):
[Show spoiler]
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:15 AM   #853
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The only weird thing I noticed about the disc is after i put it in and the menu came up-all the scenes that were playing above the words on the menu screen seemed sped up-anyone else notice this/have this?
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:39 AM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I'm in the middle of writing up something that pretty much says all of that only in a LOT more words but I agree 100%, when Junior works it looks astonishing and it really does dump all over what ILM did on the Irishman. That Mr Smith was happy to perform as his younger self while wearing the mocap get-up really helped them out I think, I know ILM made a lot of noise about their new tracking system that meant they didn't need all that stuff on Irishman (nor did De Niro and co want to shoot an entire movie dressed in leotards with little white dots painted on their faces every day, so ILM kinda had to do it differently) but Jesus, it's not even close to what Weta did here. What was spooky was how much he looked like Jaden Smith from certain angles as well, not so much Jaden right this second but Jaden from, say, his age in After Earth, maybe a few years older.
I think you're being a bit unfair here since, as I'm reminded by friends and family "black don't crack" - Smith isn't nearly as old as the Irishman cast and also looks great for his age as it is.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:02 AM   #855
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i think most of young Smith scenes worked
[Show spoiler]because most of them are night time but at the end, good lord... it looked freakin' weird...tho
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:26 AM   #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
I think you're being a bit unfair here since, as I'm reminded by friends and family "black don't crack" - Smith isn't nearly as old as the Irishman cast and also looks great for his age as it is.
But Junior is a 100% CG creation.
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:52 AM   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levcore View Post
But Junior is a 100% CG creation.
Letís not act like ILM hasnít done brilliant work with 100% CG creations in the past. Davy Jones comes to mind (still the benchmark in my eyes).

Nothing against WETA with the work they did with Junior in this. For 95% of the time, itís utterly remarkable. And itís kind of laughable that GEMINI MAN did not get a nomination for visual effects.
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:55 AM   #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman View Post
Letís not act like ILM hasnít done brilliant work with 100% CG creations in the past. Davy Jones comes to mind (still the benchmark in my eyes).

Nothing against WETA with the work they did with Junior in this. For 95% of the time, itís utterly remarkable. And itís kind of laughable that GEMINI MAN did not get a nomination for visual effects.
Who's acting like ILM hasn't done brilliant work with 100% CG creations in the past?
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Old 01-30-2020, 12:12 PM   #859
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
I think you're being a bit unfair here since, as I'm reminded by friends and family "black don't crack" - Smith isn't nearly as old as the Irishman cast and also looks great for his age as it is.
What does that have to do with it? I mean that's not actually Smith as the younger version, is it? The reason why I'm so amazed is that it's an entirely CG creation, nothing but pixels built from the ground up, and it looks fifty times better than what ILM did trying to shave a few decades off of the real De Niro and co. The latter just did not work for me, it was a valiant attempt but Ang Lee decided not to do that with Will - despite how black don't crack - and it paid off (in creative if not commercial terms) as the result is quite astonishing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman View Post
Letís not act like ILM hasnít done brilliant work with 100% CG creations in the past. Davy Jones comes to mind (still the benchmark in my eyes).

Nothing against WETA with the work they did with Junior in this. For 95% of the time, itís utterly remarkable. And itís kind of laughable that GEMINI MAN did not get a nomination for visual effects.
Who said that they hadn't? But talking strictly about photo-real CG humans I love what they did with Tarkin in Rogue One yet Irishman proves the limits of de-ageing the actual performers IMO, and when it comes to photorealistic CG humans then Weta have stolen a march on them with Junior for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdztudio View Post
i think most of young Smith scenes worked
[Show spoiler]because most of them are night time but at the end, good lord... it looked freakin' weird...tho
He looks just as good as in the darker scenes when we first see him in broad daylight in Colombia, the one at the end looks like they simply didn't have enough time to finish it.
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:16 PM   #860
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So basically this movie in HFR is Geoffy D approved. I think this will help many of the people on the fence to finally take the leap into HFR and solidify this as a legit and respectable movie-making option for any director in any genre of movie
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