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Old 01-29-2020, 05:16 AM   #1061
3Dgoon 3Dgoon is offline
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Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan View Post
Thanks, man. I appreciate that.

I'm not always the easiest person to get along with on this forum. But I at least give effort in anything I have an opinion on.

Which brings me to a couple more points that I forgot to touch on in my right up.

The first one being directly in regard to 'Dark Fate'.

Despite my disdain for how the character of Grace is written, I do enjoy Mackenzie Grace very much as an actor. I can't tell you how many times I've watched 'San Junipero'. It's the best 'Black Mirror' episode in that series' history, and a huge reason for that is because of how good her performance is. I've been able to enjoy her in everything I've seen in her in since then. But just the way they gave Grace this "I don't like your face so I'll punch it. I'm a super soldier from the future and you're not. Look at me I'm strong and stuff" bravado just seemed to lean toward the writers trying as desperately as they could to make her this OP, unstoppable super woman, without having any real merit for those decisions.

Second point, and this applies to every sequel post-T2:

At what point would they actually consider getting a visually creative director for this franchise? I mean, it's dead at this point. We all know Paramount is not giving this franchise another film after these last two duds.

But it blows my mind how all of these filmmakers after Cameron, didn't realize what a pioneer he was in pushing the cyberpunk genre in the 80s and early 90s. Even though T2 goes for a big budget, glossier route over its 1984 counterpart, there's still that gritty, urban Los Angeles feel to it. There's a utilitarian design to all of the tech. Both the stuff in the future and the present. Everything seems to have functionality and thought put into its design work.

I know no two filmmakers are the same, but even in different franchises that have entries from different directors, there would still be a similar visual language.

And, considering how influential the visuals of the first two Terminator films are in terms of how they pushed the medium of blockbuster filming for the next couple decades, you'd think people like McG, Alan Taylor, and Tim Miller especially, would get this.

And look, I know there's only one James Cameron.

Like people can say what they want to about 'Avatar' and its plot. But jesus christ, that guy can build a world and a universe like no other. And he's one of a very small handful of filmmakers that can still make an absolute masterpiece with almost strictly visual storytelling driving the narrative. His scripts haven't always been the greatest--but his direction, understanding of technology, and the way he utilizes actors, is second to none.

But the fact that there hasn't been a filmmaker to come along and truly make a spiritual successor to what Cameron had built, is actually quite surprising.

There's a general misconception around here, and on the internet in general, that fans threw this film in the trash because it wasn't T2. But that's a fallacy.

It's thrown in the trash, because time after time we are told that "This is the real T3! We've cracked the code!" And each time it's just a lazy, generic, CG-heavy blockbuster that is both narratively and visually indistinguishable from all of the other modern blockbusters that release right next to it.

If this franchise ever makes a comeback, it'll need a fresh perspective. It'll need a filmmaker that won't be afraid to try and push the visual and technological boundaries, while also simultaneously not trying to push some sort of 'message' strictly in the sake of--and I hate to use a buzz term here--'wokeness'.
While Ill disagree on some of it regarding Dark Fate, its a very well written post
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:51 AM   #1062
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Terminator: Dark Turd. What a pile! Why can’t they seem to make a good Terminator movie?
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:01 AM   #1063
eddievanhalen eddievanhalen is online now
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I think Genysis parts from a promising premise but it was both badly executed and casted. But It got the job done.
Dark Fate is a plain and predictable Action/Sci Fi movie with Linda Hamilton and Arnie on it with the Terminator badge but there's very very little "Terminatoresque" on it.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:07 AM   #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan View Post
But it blows my mind how all of these filmmakers after Cameron, didn't realize what a pioneer he was in pushing the cyberpunk genre in the 80s and early 90s. Even though T2 goes for a big budget, glossier route over its 1984 counterpart, there's still that gritty, urban Los Angeles feel to it. There's a utilitarian design to all of the tech. Both the stuff in the future and the present. Everything seems to have functionality and thought put into its design work.

I know no two filmmakers are the same, but even in different franchises that have entries from different directors, there would still be a similar visual language.
Time and place, visual language and technological cohesion are definitely a big part of it. I really think you hit it on the head there with cyberpunk. Even if you think of the movie as trying to have it's finger on the pulse of today's cultural zeitgeist... the idea of transhumanism being the next arms race and an inevitability for human survival?

There's so many ways that core concept could have made for more compelling sci fi + Terminator "lore" enrichment, and serve as a solid foundation for set piece action and story turns which emerge more organically. There's no "men like you thought it up" / "it's in your nature to destroy yourselves" / "of all the would be fathers" philosophical soul to Dark Fate.

It's not like Terminator is 2001, and it doesn't need Wachowski style exposition either, but running it as an arbitrary "robot bad guy go boom" yarn has clearly resulted in all these throwaway movies trying to follow up something that's stood the test of time, both in execution and thematically. The competition is stiff, either way.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:10 AM   #1065
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I really noticed Mackenzie Davis in The Martian. I thought she was really attractive even then. I really liked her in Black Mirror, then Blade Runner 2049, and then Tully. She just got progressively more attractive to me. She worked her ass off for the role of Grace in this movie and looked ridiculously hot.

Still, it's not all about her hotness. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I thought she did a fine job in this film and her character was one of the best parts of the film.
totally agreed and in contrary (only who saw the film please)
[Show spoiler]i think Dani role was wrong casting... i wouldn't follow that young lady... she didn't have the character of the leader and i'm talking about the future scenes
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Old 01-29-2020, 07:32 AM   #1066
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The worst scene in this was that terrible future war scene where Dani talks to the thugs. It was so so bad. Badly shot, badly acted, badly written, just horrible.

Other than that though i really like the movie. Would've been a blast in 3D, like Genisys (where the 3D adds a lot).
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:28 PM   #1067
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Terminator: Dark Turd. What a pile! Why can’t they seem to make a good Terminator movie?
In my opinion...

The story told in the first 2 films really is all that is needed.
If you do it in the present day, the whole "send back a human like killing machine" makes zero sense. Even if you need living tissue to travel, the AI (Skynet or Legion) can have that cyborg command drones or a hundred different things then sloppily fighting in the open.

I think Genisys had the right idea with time travel jumps but ruined it with the stupid John Connor / Evil Google Facebook stuff.

Dark Fate also had a good idea where there were multiple Terminators sent back during T2. Have Skynet defeated but they still have to fight them off.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:46 PM   #1068
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoSouL View Post
Time and place, visual language and technological cohesion are definitely a big part of it. I really think you hit it on the head there with cyberpunk. Even if you think of the movie as trying to have it's finger on the pulse of today's cultural zeitgeist... the idea of transhumanism being the next arms race and an inevitability for human survival?

There's so many ways that core concept could have made for more compelling sci fi + Terminator "lore" enrichment, and serve as a solid foundation for set piece action and story turns which emerge more organically. There's no "men like you thought it up" / "it's in your nature to destroy yourselves" / "of all the would be fathers" philosophical soul to Dark Fate.

It's not like Terminator is 2001, and it doesn't need Wachowski style exposition either, but running it as an arbitrary "robot bad guy go boom" yarn has clearly resulted in all these throwaway movies trying to follow up something that's stood the test of time, both in execution and thematically. The competition is stiff, either way.
It's not just Terminator though, look at something like RoboCop. None of the sequels, TV shows or reboot have gotten close to matching the verve and wit of the Verhoeven-directed first, despite some of them having writer Ed Neumeier involved in some capacity. Christ, when a set of adverts for fried chicken feel more like the OG show - in both meta and non-meta ways - than pretty much anything else out there then you know that people just didn't get it, and maybe never will again. Sometimes lightning in a bottle is just that. People might well say that Cameron did it twice with Terminator and while T2 is one of the best action movies ever made it's still not the best Terminator movie.

We have had some glorious sequels over the years for whatever movie, often when the prime filmmakers are involved once again - though sometimes it's the worst thing that could happen! - and when they're not involved it helps when you're able to follow one living legend with another e.g. Alien to Aliens (though to be fair Cameron wasn't The King Of The World at that time, being this hotshot kid who'd worked for Corman and just had a breakout hit with Terminator). But the way that people worship the ground that Cameron walks upon doesn't half shine through when they grouse about Dark Fate, they say that the movie not being a Cameron joint has nothing to do with it despite having just spent several hundred words eulogising about how great Cameron was/is. It's got nothing to do with it and everything to do with it.

Not everyone is James Cameron, natch, and it sure doesn't help that journeymen directors like Alan Taylor and Jonathan Mostow were tapped to make various attempts at Terminator 3. Even when they put someone who's known for their visuals in charge of a T movie the 'fans' cried the bitterest of tears before the movie was even released e.g. McG. The studios wanted capable hands and not auteurs who know more about your job on set than you do but that's kinda the problem here: auteurs don't grow on trees, and those that are around don't often want to paddle in someone else's pool, hence the 'auteur' tag.

Not to continually excuse whatever failings that some people have with DF but many of these kinds of beloved properties had OG movies that were so good they've been put upon a pedestal that's so goddamned high it would be impossible to reach for any mortal person. It's their blessing as it's what made them so beloved in the first place, and also their curse as nothing else could ever match up. Even if you do get a worthy sequel then it may well bomb at the box office anyway e.g. BR2049 (which took as much money worldwide as DF did, $260M) which then scares studios away from hiring people with such strong visions in the first place. Rock, meet Hard Place (though a gritty Terminator reboot with the Rock as the bad guy would be something I'd pay cash money to see, bearing in mind that Schwarzenegger was similarly thought of as action beefcake with a rather limited range at that time too).

[edit] But hey, as we live in a world where they actually did a sequel to 2001 made by a journeyman director then I guess nothing's sacred.

Last edited by Geoff D; 01-29-2020 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:52 PM   #1069
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Originally Posted by mar3o View Post
My girlfriend and I both enjoyed it quite a lot. As usual any new film will get lots of internet hate. That means pretty much nothing. See it and judge for yourself.
I did. It's terrible.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:51 PM   #1070
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Nicely contrasting opinions here, excellent.
I'll get it today and am hoping that the a/v is worthy.
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Old 01-29-2020, 04:56 PM   #1071
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You are all lit
It was...
Dora The Explorer meets short-hair Barbie fan fiction.

How did this BOMB?

This guy is a script writing genius!!

I will buy this, but I will think it over for a day. Might change my mind, but this is better on second watch knowing where the screenwriter was coming from now after analysis.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:29 PM   #1072
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I usually hate it when people post their own fanfic notions of what would actually work as a film sequel, but something's just occurred to me with Terminator that...

a) Might just be sufficiently different from the usual formula to work.

b) Might be interesting to see onscreen.

How about a sequel where not just one 'evil' Terminator travels back in time to the present day... but instead you have whole squads arriving to stage a mass assault - determined to deliver Judgement Day?

You could have advance sleeper agents launching initial incursions, preparing the way for an all-out invasion. I know we saw humanity battling an army of machines in Salvation, and facing a *very* sudden apocalypse in T3, but I'm talking about seeing how the world in its current state deals with the emerging threat of humanoid robots who emerge from our society as a very immediate and possibly unstoppable threat.

I don't know, maybe it's a lousy concept, but at least it would be a different spin on the story which still retains the tick box elements of time travel, action, gunplay, and people shedding their skin to reveal robots underneath.

©me, 2020.

Desk
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:39 PM   #1073
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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You should read the old Dark Horse comics, they didn't go all out like that but one called 'Tempest' pitted a small squad of Termies vs a small squad of meat bags in 1984, with the twist being that the rebels were sent back to assassinate a key member of Cyberdyne personnel and the Termies were sent back to protect him. Always liked that one.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:28 PM   #1074
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One of the better elements of The Sarah Connor Chronicles, was the idea of Terminator sleeper agents.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:17 PM   #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
It's not just Terminator though, look at something like RoboCop. None of the sequels, TV shows or reboot have gotten close to matching the verve and wit of the Verhoeven-directed first, despite some of them having writer Ed Neumeier involved in some capacity. Christ, when a set of adverts for fried chicken feel more like the OG show - in both meta and non-meta ways - than pretty much anything else out there then you know that people just didn't get it, and maybe never will again. Sometimes lightning in a bottle is just that. People might well say that Cameron did it twice with Terminator and while T2 is one of the best action movies ever made it's still not the best Terminator movie.

We have had some glorious sequels over the years for whatever movie, often when the prime filmmakers are involved once again - though sometimes it's the worst thing that could happen! - and when they're not involved it helps when you're able to follow one living legend with another e.g. Alien to Aliens (though to be fair Cameron wasn't The King Of The World at that time, being this hotshot kid who'd worked for Corman and just had a breakout hit with Terminator). But the way that people worship the ground that Cameron walks upon doesn't half shine through when they grouse about Dark Fate, they say that the movie not being a Cameron joint has nothing to do with it despite having just spent several hundred words eulogising about how great Cameron was/is. It's got nothing to do with it and everything to do with it.

Not everyone is James Cameron, natch, and it sure doesn't help that journeymen directors like Alan Taylor and Jonathan Mostow were tapped to make various attempts at Terminator 3. Even when they put someone who's known for their visuals in charge of a T movie the 'fans' cried the bitterest of tears before the movie was even released e.g. McG. The studios wanted capable hands and not auteurs who know more about your job on set than you do but that's kinda the problem here: auteurs don't grow on trees, and those that are around don't often want to paddle in someone else's pool, hence the 'auteur' tag.
Yeah, I was thinking about Robocop too, even though I like the sequels more now. Even 3 still has a social fabric to it v gentrification and class warfare. Verhoeven though... he really had the knack for the material and Starship Troopers was his encore. Blomkamp is another guy who just gets the genre. Probably for the best he went his own way, though. He gets pretty hammered by critics, so why bother. Especially when even performing a miracle like BR2049, with just the right mix of creative freedom, confident investment and collaborators... will still end up going down in the books as a "flop"

I feel like Sarah Connor
[Show spoiler]first appearing on the bridge and unloading on the Rev-9
was the only moment that really gave me the badassery and style I went in hoping for from Tim Miller. Giving her the "ok boomer" treatment isn't the kind of social consciousness I thought he'd bring to it either. Probably the opposite of what you'd get from say... Patty Jenkins.

Cosign Dark Horse comics too. They had/have some great stuff for all these long-lamented 80's sci-fi action greats.
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Old 01-30-2020, 12:28 AM   #1076
JosieWales JosieWales is online now
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I was really thinking about a blind buy on this one, as I love the look of the steelbook, but with all the negative comments on it, perhaps just a rental for now.
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:01 AM   #1077
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just finished it. I actually ended up liking it. Now, the first 7 minutes with the ugly video game CGI had given me really bad vibes, but it redeemed itself. Is it better than the original and T2? heck no. Is it better than T3 and Genisys? heck yes. its there in the middle with me with Salvation. Need to rewatch that, haven't seen it in years.

Audio track (rented Blu-ray so True HD track) is really good. Your bass will get a workout
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:07 AM   #1078
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its there in the middle with me with Salvation. Need to rewatch that, haven't seen it in years.
Don't.
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:41 AM   #1079
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Will give this a rental this weekend.
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:35 AM   #1080
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Why can’t they seem to make a good Terminator movie?
Because they keep hiring bad filmmakers and bad writers.

In a perfect world, 'The Sarah Connor Chronicles' would've lasted longer than two seasons, and would've been the perfect compliment to Cameron's two films.

What's frustrating about that is, the series had already been good through its first season, but man, during the last 6 or 7 episodes of the second season, it really started to hit the gears just right.

Funny how they didn't try to be James Cameron, but still ended up making something worthy to his films. Almost like my original comments of how whoever they put in charge to make the film, don't have to be James Cameron, but just have to honor the groundwork that's been laid before them. Context is important.

As far as a proper Terminator film goes. Well, we can all throw out names and suggestions all we want. But I'd settle for a director that can put together a competent writing staff and art department, for starters. Because these last few Terminator films have looked like shit.
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