Ask questions to Blu-ray BD-J insider "Talkstr8t"

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by jorg

talk i am very curious to bd-j abilitys to run as a type of "operating system" or to host programs

such as will there be a day were a program such as browser could be programed to run on a player?

Absolutely, since the Java platform supports most of the same capabilities an operating system does. In fact, it's already been done on the very similar Multimedia Home Platform (MHP), a standard for over-the-air and satellite TV based on the same Java platform as BD-J. When you watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" in Italy you get a Java browser (transparently) downloaded to your set-top box, and then that browser renders the HTML content for the game itself (see screenshot below). This model could work well for studios to use to access specific HTML content online, but probably wouldn't work great as a general purpose browser (since it likely wouldn't support all of the latest HTML standards used online).



- Talk

[ADIDAS]

Burning home movies is a hobby of mine. I currently use Adobe Encore CS3 for BDMV authoring. I can pretty much do the same menus as I can with DVD's. The only exception is that encore does not support subtitles for Blu ray authoring. There are currently no advanced BD-J menu options.

What are the chances in the future for authoring programs from Adobe and Apple to support BD-J? Will BD-J always require labor intensive programming with high end programs like Scenarist that are beyond the realm of the small independent producers.

[WickyWoo]

Hi Talk

I know a lot of our members don't really like the long loading times on Blu on existing players

Can you elaborate on the process a BD-J heavy disc like a Spidey 3 goes through when it loads? I realize that there are trade secrets and such involved, but perhaps a breakdown can better help people understand how the whole thing moves between the time you hit close and the menu pops up.

Thanks!

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Absolutely, since the Java platform supports most of the same capabilities an operating system does. In fact, it's already been done on the very similar Multimedia Home Platform (MHP), a standard for over-the-air and satellite TV based on the same Java platform as BD-J. When you watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" in Italy you get a Java browser (transparently) downloaded to your set-top box, and then that browser renders the HTML content for the game itself (see screenshot below). This model could work well for studios to use to access specific HTML content online, but probably wouldn't work great as a general purpose browser (since it likely wouldn't support all of the latest HTML standards used online).



- Talk

THAT is seriously cool. I take it that this feature allows the viewer to actually take their own guess at the answer, with the software determining the correct response at the appropriate time?

This is the sort of interactivity I'd love to see in otherwise static content - maybe insted of just the raw trivia tracks like we see in discs from Fox, for instance, we could see an actual in-movie trivia game.

I don't think trying to use the BD-j environment for a web browser would work very well - certainly not well enough to impress the average user who doesn't understand what internet latency is; there just isn't enough storage and computational power to make it work smoothly even with a solid net connection, and heaven help you if you're one of those poor benighted souls with a "broadband" cable connection that taps out at 60Kbps due to too many users connected to the same node (yes, I've actually seen this happen, as the area I live in was one of the earliest markets for cable internet service).

Are your contacts at the various studios excited about what sort of extra functionality they can now produce as a value-added product to provide alongside passive TV/movie content?

P.S. It's too bad Paramount is (at least for the current time) on the other side of the fence. I would buy something like Clue in a heartbeat on Blu-ray if it were able to simulate the interactive voting phenomenon that the original theatrical film had.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by ADIDAS

Burning home movies is a hobby of mine. I currently use Adobe Encore CS3 for BDMV authoring. I can pretty much do the same menus as I can with DVD's. The only exception is that encore does not support subtitles for Blu ray authoring. There are currently no advanced BD-J menu options.

What are the chances in the future for authoring programs from Adobe and Apple to support BD-J? Will BD-J always require labor intensive programming with high end programs like Scenarist that are beyond the realm of the small independent producers.

I can't speak for Adobe and Apple, but there are definitely authoring tools which don't require programming skills. Costs are still relatively high, but I expect cheaper (or even open source) options to emerge.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

I know a lot of our members don't really like the long loading times on Blu on existing players

Can you elaborate on the process a BD-J heavy disc like a Spidey 3 goes through when it loads? I realize that there are trade secrets and such involved, but perhaps a breakdown can better help people understand how the whole thing moves between the time you hit close and the menu pops up.

Much of the loading time is related to a)benchmarking the player and b)preloading graphical assets. Benchmarking allows the disc to determine how performant the player is in order to tailer graphics and other effects as necessary. In the future software will be able to query the player for that information rather than running a benchmark, so time will be saved. Preloading assets means you can cache graphics and have less impact on latency as the movie is playing, but does result in an initial delay. I expect faster players and new authoring techniques will help minimize this.

[blitz6speed]

Talk

Can a method be applied to the older, slower Profile 1.0 players firmwares, so that you could start up a disc and say, hold down a certain button at bootup, and it bypasses all the menus, bd-j stuff, and just plays the movie with no major options? I bet that would be a VERY popular feature.

[Banjo]

Thanks for responding. I really appreciate it. I think I'm going to take some of your suggestions and see what happen. :-)

[blubb]

Hi Talkstr8t,

i wrote a GEM/BD-J Software and would like to burn it on a BD-R.

Is there any consumer-level software capable of burning a BD-J Disc? Does a PS3 play those disc?

[blckshp]

Talk, I've been waiting for you to show up. LOL I have a lot of questions regarding OCAP and interactivity. Even though I'm working for the corporate software house for a major MSO who has led the cable industry in the development of OCAP, we don't get all the information. We just get to play with the stuff and beat our heads against the wall to make it work.

My question is, was the original reason why the BDA chose BD-J was that they were looking forward to IPTV. We all know that Microsoft has been working hard on IPTV and their HDI is what they were hoping to become a standard there. But their licensing fees are usually higher than what people like and going with an open source platform would save money in the future in those licensing fees. Especially, like you said, that given the current authoring process, they can use the same interactivity designed for BD for broadcast when appropriate. Microsoft would probably have charged for a double dip there, since there are two different technologies.

A second question, you may or may not know anything about. I know that Cablelabs has set the OCAP spec for the two way system for cable, but that the CE's, mainly Sony, aren't fond of it and want to do their own version of it. I don't have a lot of details on it, but I do know that Sony along with some other companies are trying to get that spec changed. Any insight on this and how it may affect our Home Media experience in the future?

Thanks!

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

Can a method be applied to the older, slower Profile 1.0 players firmwares, so that you could start up a disc and say, hold down a certain button at bootup, and it bypasses all the menus, bd-j stuff, and just plays the movie with no major options? I bet that would be a VERY popular feature.

I think this would violate the spec, as in effect the player would be arbitrarily bypassing content which it is supposed to execute. The studios could certainly author their titles to support this sort of capability...

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by blubb

Hi Talkstr8t,

i wrote a GEM/BD-J Software and would like to burn it on a BD-R.

Is there any consumer-level software capable of burning a BD-J Disc? Does a PS3 play those disc?

If you are a programmer take a look at the Java.net BD-J discussion forum - you'll find lots of pointers to how to get things up-and-running there. For more resources see the HD Cookbook website.

Your PS3 is definitely capable of running BD-J xlets from BD-R/-RE discs.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by blckshp

Talk, I've been waiting for you to show up. LOL I have a lot of questions regarding OCAP and interactivity. Even though I'm working for the corporate software house for a major MSO who has led the cable industry in the development of OCAP, we don't get all the information. We just get to play with the stuff and beat our heads against the wall to make it work.

My question is, was the original reason why the BDA chose BD-J was that they were looking forward to IPTV.

No, I don't think IPTV was significantly on the radar when Java was selected for BD-J. Also, while a BD player could clearly serve as an IPTV client, I don't think the business case is there for it yet (other than the PS3), as there simply isn't enough penetration yet for a telco to consider it as a viable platform.

We all know that Microsoft has been working hard on IPTV and their HDI is what they were hoping to become a standard there. But their licensing fees are usually higher than what people like and going with an open source platform would save money in the future in those licensing fees.

I don't think licensing fees are the issue with Microsoft's approach so much as their proprietary end-to-end software. A Java client, being based on standards, can easily be replaced with another vendor's implementation. The same can't be said of Microsoft's Media Room IPTV platform.

A second question, you may or may not know anything about. I know that Cablelabs has set the OCAP spec for the two way system for cable, but that the CE's, mainly Sony, aren't fond of it and want to do their own version of it. I don't have a lot of details on it, but I do know that Sony along with some other companies are trying to get that spec changed. Any insight on this and how it may affect our Home Media experience in the future?

Sony has been fighting against OCAP (now known as tru2way), but we have some strong vendors in favor of it, including Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Thomson, and even Toshiba. Intel, Microsoft, and Tivo have even come around to some extent.

The FCC may choose to make tru2way mandatory, may choose the CEA's alternate approach, or may not rule either way, but in the absence of a ruling against tru2way I think we'll see very widespread adoption over the next few years.

- Talk

[spicynacho]

Whats to stop BR from implementing HD DVD's HDi using BD-J. It seems like Rhino from mozilla should be able to do most of it. If they added some special multimedia functions, it shouldn't be that hard to reverse engineer it and add it to the runtime environment. Are there IP issues that prevent this? If not, a handful of clever java developers could easily steal HD DVD's interactivity plank.

Originally Posted by M$

Implement the Interactive Experience

An Advanced Application is implemented using a combination of XML markup files and optional ECMAScript script files (.JS). The XML markup files consist of playlist files (.XPL), application manifest files (.XMF), application markup files (.XMU), and advanced subtitle files (.XAS).

Microsoft offers downloadable utilities for simulating and validating HD DVD applications. For more information about these tools, see For More Information.

The HDDVDValidator.exe program validates the markup and script, and can be used to identify and fix many common errors. This tool comes with a separate file, jscript.dll, which, when installed, enables more detailed error reporting.

The iHDSim.exe program is an Advanced Content simulator. It simulates an HD DVD Advanced Application on the desktop computer. This enables testing of the Advanced Content as it is being developed. The iHDSim.exe is not intended as a video playback mechanism, an optical disc simulator, performance simulator, or replacement for consumer electronics players. It is only an aid to make the authoring of interactive experiences easier.

The only official documentation for developing HD DVD applications is the HD DVD specification, released by the DVD Format / Logo Licensing Corporation. An HD DVD Programming Guide is also available, from Microsoft. For information about both of these documents, see For More Information.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa468611.aspx

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Sony has been fighting against OCAP (now known as tru2way), but we have some strong vendors in favor of it, including Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Thomson, and even Toshiba. Intel, Microsoft, and Tivo have even come around to some extent.

Why would Sony fight against something that opens up a market they can't really enter right now?

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

The FCC may choose to make tru2way mandatory, may choose the CEA's alternate approach, or may not rule either way, but in the absence of a ruling against tru2way I think we'll see very widespread adoption over the next few years.

Do you see someone like Panasonic sticking a BD reader/burner in one of these, and making it a complete media box?

Gary

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by spicynacho

Whats to stop BR from implementing HD DVD's HDi using BD-J. It seems like Rhino from mozilla should be able to do most of it. If they added some special multimedia functions, it shouldn't be that hard to reverse engineer it and add it to the runtime environment.

Theoretically it's certainly possible. The question is what sort of a performance hit would you take. Without a very well-optimized BD-J environment running on reasonably powerful hardware, you'd have a hard time getting usable performance. It also is a very roundabout way to do things; the concept might be marginally useful for migrating existing content, but for new content you'd be adding several extra software layers for no clear benefit. A better idea would be to take whatever features of HDi you like and build BD-J libraries to provide similar capabilities using the same basic API's. You'd then have those capabilities added to BD-J's existing capabilities.

Are there IP issues that prevent this?

No, though to the extent that Microsoft and others may have IP in HDi you'd presumably have to license it from them. Or if you're taking the "best features" of HDi you could try to change them enough to work around the IP.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Why would Sony fight against something that opens up a market they can't really enter right now?

It opens up the set-top box market, but it's unlikely anyone can make sufficient revenue there anyway unless they get a big contract from one of the cable operators (as Panasonic has done from Comcast). Sony's beef with tru2way is that it's a cable-owned specification. If Sony builds a tru2way TV they aren't satisfied that cable will ensure that the apps run as well on that TV as they do on the cable companies leased set-top box, and if they don't Sony could have a big customer satisfaction issue on their hands for something they don't have control over. In effect cable is going to have to satisfy the remaining CE companies (or the FCC) that they can manage the specification in a way to ensure everyone can confidently put product in the market which supports that spec. It's really not much different than Blu-ray and BD-J, it's just that Sony has strong influence over BD-J (as a BDA director and founder), whereas they have virtually no influence over cable.

Do you see someone like Panasonic sticking a BD reader/burner in one of these, and making it a complete media box?

Sure, in time, but I think it'll be a few years, as costs need to come down far enough and the networks have to get comfortable with their high-value content (i.e. HBO, Video-on-demand) being written to optical media. I don't think we've as yet seen anyone successfully put a red-laser DVD recorder in a cable DVR (Humax did with Tivo), so doing so with Blu-ray on a tru2way device would be another step beyond that.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

It opens up the set-top box market, but it's unlikely anyone can make sufficient revenue there anyway unless they get a big contract from one of the cable operators (as Panasonic has done from Comcast).

Does this mean we will still be stuck purchasing a box supplied through the cableco, and not a general box we can purchase anywhere?

At this point, I can't buy a SA8300HD PVR from anyone but my cableco or an authorized seller. They simple won't activate any others. So, the prices are absolutely insane.

Many people are hoping that we can start to purchase cable STB based on performance and features, like other A/V equipment.

Gary

[glenn22]

Hi Talk,

I don't know if this question has been asked before and I wasn't really involved in the original insider's thread much.

I am wondering if there is anything truly revolutionary in the works for BD-J. So far we've seen fancy menus and the beginnings of PiP. We've also heard bits a pieces of what BD-Live will bring us, but I've yet to hear about anything that will really get "DVD is good enough" folks excited about Blu-ray.

[Neo65]

Talk,

Is there a more accurate (more recent) update to the list of BDA members including general and contributor members than this here :

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_i...009/Index.html

Thanks.