Video Quality

[jgo435]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before. I couldn't find anything on it. I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on other threads where people claim the video quality on MA is better than Vudu and iTunes. Has anyone actually compared bitrates to see if movies on MA play at a higher bitrate? I would assume the studios would provide the same file or whatever across all platforms.

[avs commenter]

I heard Itunes had the highest bitrate

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by jgo435

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before. I couldn't find anything on it. I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on other threads where people claim the video quality on MA is better than Vudu and iTunes. Has anyone actually compared bitrates to see if movies on MA play at a higher bitrate? I would assume the studios would provide the same file or whatever across all platforms.

Yes, people have, posted somewhere here a while back. And for whatever reason, the provider’s do not always have the same file.

Edit: Here is a post from last year. THere is another post somewhere with Data showing MA with a good streaming Mbps also.

Originally Posted by dunnbluray

Switch iTunes and Vudu. Vudu streams 4K around 15 Mbps and iTunes is around 25 Mbps. Jake, a Vudu engineer, posted this information on the Vudu forum.

[casperuk]

I'm not surprised really.
MA is adverting Avengers Endgame as 4K Dolby vision, but a mate of mine has said that iTunes doesn't even carry it in 4k yet, only HD. Yes it was from an apple device that supports 4k too.

I've checked Google play and that's doing the 4k version, but god knows if it's Dolby vision or not.

And I know the physical release doesn't carry Dolby vision.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by casperuk

I'm not surprised really.
MA is adverting Avengers Endgame as 4K Dolby vision, but a mate of mine has said that iTunes doesn't even carry it in 4k yet, only HD. Yes it was from an apple device that supports 4k too.

I've checked Google play and that's doing the 4k version, but god knows if it's Dolby vision or not.

And I know the physical release doesn't carry Dolby vision.

iTunes doesn’t carry any Disney in 4k due to a pricing disagreement.

Otherwise you might be in the wrong thread. Edit: Now I understand why you posted here.

[steve_dave]

Originally Posted by casperuk

I'm not surprised really.
MA is adverting Avengers Endgame as 4K Dolby vision, but a mate of mine has said that iTunes doesn't even carry it in 4k yet, only HD. Yes it was from an apple device that supports 4k too.

I've checked Google play and that's doing the 4k version, but god knows if it's Dolby vision or not.

And I know the physical release doesn't carry Dolby vision.

Google Play is HDR10, no DV support yet.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I heard Itunes had the highest bitrate

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

[casperuk]

Originally Posted by steve_dave

Google Play is HDR10, no DV support yet.

See. It's almost like a competition to win your cash. I just want the best version available. It's why I buy the stuff I really want on physical discs. But I buy the stuff I like and would watch now and again digitally.

But it's a shame we here in the UK don't get the digital copies thrown in with blu rays anymore..

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

Must be down to a different compression method. Or even audio tracks offered

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

I think the services use variable bit rate.

My internet is not working correctly now, so I'm topping out at 12.5mbps down compared to the 25-27mbps I should be getting.

I just attempted to play several services 4K.

VUDU: UHD started with no problems. Zero lag and started 4K at the very beginning. This is consistent with VUDU's mimimum of 11mbps for streaming 4K. Fast forwarding and rewinding was quite quick, and kept 4K.

Amazon: UHD worked fine, I think. I basically had to eyeball sharpness since there wasn't a way for me to verify resolution on the app. It's ironic that when I had 10mbps service a couple of years ago, I had difficulty playing HD on Amazon.

YouTube: I couldn't play any of my movies in 4K, only 720p via the Roku app, but playing 4K videos played fine, with only a slight buffering before starting. More so than VUDU or Amazon anyway.

FandangoNow: UHD started with no problems. Zero lag.

iTunes: Started playing "Shazam!" in 4K from the start, but fast forwarding and rewinding would often knock the resolution down to SD/HDR before recovering within a minute or so.


FYI, I didn't know until now, but on tvOS 13 (beta anyway, who knows about the final release), you hit the Menu button to show resolution instead of the down button. The down button only brings chapters, subtitles, and audio options.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by casperuk

Must be down to a different compression method. Or even audio tracks offered

It's the same compression as far as I know. I'm not saying that it's conclusive but it makes no sense.

[casperuk]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

It's the same compression as far as I know. I'm not saying that it's conclusive but it makes no sense.

Nothing does with digital

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

Here is an old post from December. There is also a post somewhere, maybe from Zu that shows higher bit rates for iTunes than Vudu for 4K. There are no 4K downloads.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post15860734

Originally Posted by Greyman

iTunes, with higher bit rates for streaming than download. Don’t know if this is a true fact though.

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Enhhhh....I'd need to see some hard evidence before I believed that. I remember comparing download sizes on itunes and Vudu and, for a 2 hour movie, Vudu was about 6-8GB. Itunes was around 3-5GB. Granted, file size isn't everything but that's a pretty big difference, all things considered.
...

Here are some of those posts I was referring to.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

...

And to answer the OP's question, yes, even for 1080p content the streamed versions on Apple TV 4/4K now use higher bitrates than the iTunes downloads (see e.g. here). Whether or not you can see or hear a difference is of course another question. Personally I think the downloaded iTunes files still look quite good.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Most definitely, as there's more of a finer grain structure on some movies when streaming due to the higher bitrate (which is usually around 15-22mbs). It's funny that the downloads/hard copy files are still at a much lower bitrate than streaming, because in most cases it's the other way around.

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

I'd love for someone able to pull up xcode right now and check right now on stream details for appleTV to correct me on this....but...

In the authoring document there are suggested bit rates content are provided at. This max's at 7800 for H264 and 7000 for HDR H265 and 5800 for H265 @ 1080. Which is why it gets complicated.

4k digital streams will all use H265 codec. Whereas 1080p varies by device and content. On PC the only streamer supporting 4k playback is Netflix but that requires a certain intel cpu or nvidia gpu for the drm+H265 hardware decoding.

Now that's established, 1080p on dedicated devices... Last august/sept TVOS 11 rolled out to 4th gen apple TVs adding software decoding of H265. As such they decided to play around with the options they have ready for 4k ATV. Some 1080p TV shows and Films will now be using H265 instead of H264. Similarly Fire TV Stick 2nd Gen came with support for H265 for 1080P earlier in the year/end of 2016

AppleTV vs iTunes
On PC Apple and Amazon still use H264. So the stream going to your apple TV may end up being 5.8Mb/s H265 whereas on iTunes equivalent you'd get 5.8Mb/s MPEG4 Part 10 aka H264. The H265 stream will look better as the compression is more efficient in maintaining data. In theory 50% but in practise 25-35%. Much like how a 1L engine 10 years ago has nowhere near the power 1L engine just built does.. it's much more efficient. So you end up getting a better image overall whilst using the same bitrate. There have been a couple of people saying their bitrate of content has also gone up on the AppleTV all the way up to 15Mb/s for a 1080p H265 stream which matches Amazon's Web H264 maximum but being more efficient so looks better. Note however this bitrate goes far beyond suggested in document above so isn't straight out their streaming quality.
So AppleTV provide better quality than iTunes and equal or better than Amazon's Web service.

Amazon Web vs Amazon Device
As mentioned newest amazon devices and smart TV apps and AppleTV App support H265. The bitrate hasn't seemed to increase for 1080p content but it's the more efficient codec. So amazon device stream will look better than web*.

Amazon Device vs AppleTV
As the bitrate isn't increased it therefore matches what the appleTV is providing for H265 streams and they should roughly be equal from the concept of file size, codec and bitrate.. the only difference is the encoding that happens. Amazon and Apple use a different algorithm to compress. Which you prefer is down the end user. Much like some discs can have a bad copy of a film Apple and Amazon have their own issues at times from time to time.
*Saying something here looks better is based from bitrate and codec. Mileage may vary. Also H265 is a MaciTunes thing right now from my understanding alongside Kaby Lake requirment

Then there is the 4k stream rabbit hole im going to avoid due lack of visual experience and UK options being utter garbage outside of netflix originals and AppleTV 4k. Step up your game Amazon, Google, Flixster

tl:dr
Amazon Device ≃ AppleTV > AmazonWeb > iTunes



Had changed noise to grain and kept deliberating. You're correct and I agree with you. The encode won't introduce grain but I believe apple applies their own grain when mastering for their platforms. Additionally my understanding was iTunes H265 support is Mac High Serria + Kaby Lake limited at this time? Are you aware of where Quicktime is at with H256 files? From memory it wasn't supported.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...loads.2063000/

When streaming an iTunes purchase on the Apple TV 4 from the movies or tv shows apps, the video bitrate was variable, shifting in a range of roughly 7mbps to 15mbps. This applied to both movies and tv shows purchased from iTunes, and is significantly higher than the roughly 5.6mbps constant bitrate that 1080p HD iTunes downloads are, when downloaded to a computer. This even matches or beats Vudu HDX streams.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

I'm assuming you mean the size of downloaded files. At least iTunes uses different files for streaming and downloading, both in terms if bitrates and also audio formats (streaming bitrates are significantly higher, while downloads are encoded for ~5Mbps bitrate). They may also use H.265 compression for HD streaming in some cases, but it's difficult to verify. And they don't offer 4K for download at all, and all major streaming providers now use adaptive streaming. So you can't simply extrapolate from downloaded file sizes to streaming bitrates.

At the end of the day DRM and closed playback platforms make it difficult to objectively compare streaming platforms in detail.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I heard Itunes had the highest bitrate

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Then why are Vudu file sizes usually double that of iTunes? Same with microsoft.

Here is the old post with 4K data.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post14648620

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I actually dug a little into this in another thread. Vudu's UHD is not as good as iTunes's UHD; Vudu runs about 15Mbps and iTunes runs about 25Mbps.

4K Blu-rays and streams use the more efficient HEVC codec; Blu-ray and older HD streams use the AVC codec. HEVC bitrates are about the equivalent of 1.67x AVC. So a 15Mbps HEVC stream from Vudu is about the same as a 25Mbps AVC stream, which is about the average for Blu-rays. I'd say that Vudu's UHD streaming is equivalent to a Blu-ray. (iTunes is better.)

[soaptrail]

I was watching Ready Player 1 in UHD on Vudu, MA, and google play last night. I was watching the bandwidth from my asus router app. All three apps were using about 4000 KB/s. MA seemed to maintain it and the other two were more up and down but i could not notice a difference in picture or audio quality. I like the MA android TV app except it has no chapters and needs way more DV titles.

[samlop10]

I did a comparison of the different 4K services and overall iTunes was the best closely followed my MA:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...7#post17059457

That was all 4K mind you, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the SDR results were similar or the same.