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Old 09-19-2008, 08:51 PM   #21
Sir Terrence Sir Terrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post
With the utmost respect for your professional experience and your stature as an Audio Insider, I beg to differ.
And you have the right to do so!

Quote:
You are obviously not a fan of Yamaha’s sound field technology, and by “destroy the signal” I assume you mean that the addition of ambience in the home environment (as opposed to in the recording environment) corrupts the intentions of the original sound designer. While I would have to agree that an artist’s vision should never be unnecessarily compromised by an end user, there are nonetheless technological opportunities available to the end user whose intent is to restore or recreate an artists’ original vision for appreciation in the home environment. Equalization is a prime example. EQ clearly alters the signal, but isn’t the intent to eliminate sonic anomalies introduced by the listening environment and return the perceived state of the signal to something closer to the original? Doesn’t one’s very choice of amplification equipment and speakers alter the signal?
With all due respect to your opinion, you cannot restore or recreate something when you do not know what is lost. Yamaha DSP cannot analyze what got lost between the recording process, and the playback process, and then restore it. It does not work that way. These DSP modes are more akin to seasoning the audio, because lets face it, even the DSP's cannot restore thousands of discrete reflections that occur in a live room.

EQ is not the same thing as made up information from a DSP chip. If you need EQ, then the frequency response was already altered by the speakers, or the room. EQ in this case does restore information that was altered by the room or speakers, this is not what DSP's in the Yamaha do.

Quote:
While it is certainly true that Yamaha’s sound field technology alters the final sound as perceived by the end listener (by adding digitally-derived ambience), I would argue that if properly applied with moderation and with consideration for the style of music being enhanced, the alteration can in fact provide an end result closer to the artist’s original vision.
This is just not true. Digitally derived does not mean actual recorded information. The DSP's are making the information up, not recovering what was naturally lost. The DSP chips do not include the reflection patterns of every recital or concert hall in the world, so adding a reflection pattern of symphony hall to a recording done in Avery Fisher hall will not get you closer to the actual event at all. You are adding spurios reflections that were never apart of the original recording in the first place.

If accuracy(and that is what I believe in most) in first and foremost, then I cannot think of a single situation where DSP derived reflection patterns are superimposed over another set of reflection patterns are necessary or even desireable.


Quote:
Symphony orchestras are not intended to be heard in a living room environment. 2-channel recordings of symphonies are an approximation of the artist’s original vision. Yamaha’s classical hall sound fields can produce a very believable recreation of listening to a symphony in a real concert hall.
Your logic is flawed. If Symphony Orchestra were not designed to be heard in living rooms, then how does Yamaha DSP's make it more listenable? Last time I checked, many folks(including myself) have been listening to Symphony Orchestra's in our living rooms for years via two channel and multichannel recording, and without the interference of DSP generated environments.

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As I have stated before, I personally believe that Yamaha’s sound field technology works best with 2-channel music sources that were intended to be heard in a live environment to begin with (classical, jazz, organ, choir, etc.) IMHO, the technology enhances these types of recordings by reproducing an approximation of the environment in which they were intended to be heard. I would agree that the technology is much less effective with multi-channel recordings that already make use of the additional channels for ambient and other effects.
Two channel recording should not be altered by any DSP based reflection generator. It was mixed and EQ for proper playback through two speakers. Adding a reflection generator along with your rooms natural reflection pattern just muddies the audio. All of these natural and derived reflections alter the tonal textures of the original source, but when you stack them on top of each other, in the hands of most, you get a mess. I do not really mind what people do with their equipment, but it might not be wise to actually try and legitimitize something that can make the audio worse in most cases, instead of better. Not all recordings are done in the halls the DSP's are modeled after. Whatever hall ambience is naturally recorded can get swamped by the stuff generated by the DSP's. IMO anything that is not apart of the original recording, or does not go towards restoring the frequency response of the original recording(getting rid of room borne nodes), it should not be there. Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy is what we should be shooting for, but I realize that some care less about accuracy, and more about putting salt, pepper on already well seasoned food.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:49 PM   #22
ozzman ozzman is offline
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A little bit of extra pepper never hurt anybody

I get it, you don't like to add anything to a original recording because if thats the way its recorded then thats the way you want to hear it.Got it.

Iam Hungarian and love my pepper. if you set it up right dsp modes can work and add a little flare.I don't use them all the time (usually just Standard) but sometimes its a nice change

When i use lets say hall in Vienna.I know iam not getting the hall in Vienna ,It's(Fake) 7.1 .
But it sounded good when watching David Gilmore on blu.Like i said its a nice change But some people don't like change and thats O.K too

I like to have fun with my equipment,I mean i spend enough money on it .I say have fun.It doesn't have to be so complacating and serious.

I say why spend 10-20 grande on equipment if you can't have fun with it once in a while.I think some people know so much about sound that iam surprized they don't own there own line of recievers or own line of speakers.
But what do i know iam just a owner of a RX-v3800 that likes to enjoy it and take Advantage of the features.

Your friend
OZZMAN

Last edited by ozzman; 07-18-2009 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:49 PM   #23
talstarone talstarone is offline
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I use a small pair of Polk Audio M-10 Speakers($69.00 including FREE Shipping at NewEgg)for my Front Presence Speakers.

I really enjoy the atmosphere they produce in the front sound stage of several movies(but not all).I do hate the trade off of either the front or rear surrounds but not both(Yamaha RX-V665)But I do find myself using them more then not.

But I will say I knew nothing about them when purchasing the receiver.It would not have influenced my choice on which receiver I purchased at all,but after using them I am glad they are part of the package.
And may I say Thanks James for explaining the details of these speakers.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:21 PM   #24
sokrman14 sokrman14 is offline
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Great explanation of what the presence speakers are, however it gives me more reason to stay away from yamaha receivers. I hate extra DSP's because all it does is alter the original signal. Maybe I am too picky and want the most pure signal...maybe the altered signal sounds better to others, but I prefer keeping the signal path unaltered or least altered.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:44 PM   #25
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sokrman14 View Post
Great explanation of what the presence speakers are, however it gives me more reason to stay away from yamaha receivers. I hate extra DSP's because all it does is alter the original signal. Maybe I am too picky and want the most pure signal...maybe the altered signal sounds better to others, but I prefer keeping the signal path unaltered or least altered.
Yamaha makes great receivers. If you don't like DSP modes, don't use them. You can turn them off. Different DSP modes are available on many receivers besides Yamaha and a good marketing tactic to compete in an extremely competitive environment.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 05-11-2009 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:40 AM   #26
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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+1

Even my entry level Yamaha receiver, the V663, allows you to deactivate DSP by selecting Straight mode. You know you are in straight mode because 'Straight' will be displayed in the front window. You'll be listening to the unprocessed input signal.

I set mine to Straight whenever I'm watching a BD movie. On some input sources like dts-HD:MA, it is done automatically, and DSP is deactivated. OTOH, for DD-TrueHD and uncompressed PCM, you can activate DSP if you so desire. However, I would advise against doing that. I concur with Sir Terrence when it comes to BD input sources.

However, when listening to HD cable channels in 5.1, I set the V663 to Standard Movie. Many HD cable channels are so compressed that they sound muddy, dull, and lack impact. Since they don't sound real anyway, DSP can't hurt, and it usually does improve the sound.

Edit: HD cable can sometimes sound pretty awesome with the Straight Enhancer DSP.

Last edited by Yeha-Noha; 05-15-2009 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:20 AM   #27
talstarone talstarone is offline
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I have removed my Front Presence Speakers for the time being.
I still Love the Depth it provides to the Front Soundstage,but I seem to like the depth the extra Rear Surrounds provide to the Surround Soundstage,More Then the Depth in the Front Soundstage(Shame you cant run both at the same time with the RX-V665 like I have).

Though there are still a few movies that benefit from the Extra Depth in the Front Soundstage(Forest Gump and other movies that are similar to commentaries)
But its still nice to know that the Front Presence Option is there whenever it benefits the Movie being played.

So,over time its use and how much its needed can change,but not to a point where it would Never be used.So I still consider it a Plus an an added benefit to my receiver.
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:23 PM   #28
MADNOD MADNOD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talstarone View Post
I have removed my Front Presence Speakers for the time being.
I still Love the Depth it provides to the Front Soundstage,but I seem to like the depth the extra Rear Surrounds provide to the Surround Soundstage,More Then the Depth in the Front Soundstage(Shame you cant run both at the same time with the RX-V665 like I have).

Though there are still a few movies that benefit from the Extra Depth in the Front Soundstage(Forest Gump and other movies that are similar to commentaries)
But its still nice to know that the Front Presence Option is there whenever it benefits the Movie being played.

So,over time its use and how much its needed can change,but not to a point where it would Never be used.So I still consider it a Plus an an added benefit to my receiver.

hi, as per the 665 manual and an email i sent to yamaha, u can run the 665 with 9 speakers, the presence doesn't consume the rear surrounds, they comsumes the ZONE 2.
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:20 PM   #29
Hadwore-Walmone Hadwore-Walmone is offline
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:50 AM   #30
lucv13 lucv13 is offline
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Well sure looks like Yamaha was ahead of it's time with the implementation of the presence speakers as it seem that it will soon be the norm in many receivers using Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz - gonna have to find another pair of Atoms....
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:58 AM   #31
drummerboy drummerboy is offline
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Some really interesting coments on Yamaha speakers and recievers. I am interested in the ysp 4100 for the lounge room and i understand it is fairly new to the market and has 4 hdmi conections. I love the fact that there is no surround speakers and speaker cables running all over the place. Can you actually run a reciever with no hdmi and still get dts master audio from the ysp. Ihave a vsx-ax10 pio reciever which i am using in my main theatre room and upgrading to the denon avp-a1hd with the matching amp that goes with it in around 8 months time. I am thinking of putting the vsx in the lounge room with the ysp 4100, pairing the two. Would this be practical. I know very little about these ysp's.I dont mean to hijack this thread.

Last edited by drummerboy; 11-02-2009 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:52 PM   #32
DougMorgan DougMorgan is offline
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A further question to add to the excellent info here:

In general would a bipole/dipole speaker be good for the presence speakers? Or would a conventional speaker be a better fit?

In particular I am thinking of adding the paradigm ADP-190 as presence speakers in a 5.1 setup with Paradigm Monitor 9's as front, CC-390 as centre and a pair of ADP-390's for surrounds. My other choices, in keeping with the all paradigm theme, would be an older pair of micros or an even older set of two way bookshelfs.

Thanks
Doug
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:38 PM   #33
JamesN JamesN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougMorgan View Post
A further question to add to the excellent info here:

In general would a bipole/dipole speaker be good for the presence speakers? Or would a conventional speaker be a better fit?

In particular I am thinking of adding the paradigm ADP-190 as presence speakers in a 5.1 setup with Paradigm Monitor 9's as front, CC-390 as centre and a pair of ADP-390's for surrounds. My other choices, in keeping with the all paradigm theme, would be an older pair of micros or an even older set of two way bookshelfs.

Thanks
Doug
IMO a direct firing speaker would be a better fit. I use Paradigm Atoms and they work beautifully. The reason being is that Yamaha recommends that the presence speakers be placed above and outside (that is to the left and right) of your main speakers. Unless you have an unusually wide front wall, bipole/dipoles would be firing directly into your side walls.

I have my presence speakers mounted at approximately 7.5' high and about 1' outside my mains. Also, i have them toed-in and angled downward so that they fire at the main listening position(s). I did a lot of experimentation with placement and this seems to yield the best results with my room.

I've also recently upgraded to an RX-Z11, so now I have an additional pair of rear presence speakers! I'm also using a pair of Atoms for these.

ymmv. Hope this helps.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:36 AM   #34
Drew664 Drew664 is offline
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Wow..

I was about to start a thread on this (edit: didn't even realize this was a sticky!! ), but I figured I'd do my research first and sure enough, the first Google listing for 'presence speakers' landed me here! I love this site!!

I was going to ask if a bipole/dipole speaker option would be better than a direct firing one since the purpose of the presence speakers are ambient sounds. Anyone have additional comments on this?

(Thanks JamesN!)

Last edited by Drew664; 02-19-2010 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:39 AM   #35
Drew664 Drew664 is offline
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Originally Posted by JamesN View Post
I've also recently upgraded to an RX-Z11, so now I have an additional pair of rear presence speakers! I'm also using a pair of Atoms for these.
That model is the exact reason I wanted to look into presence speakers. What do you think of it so far?
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:30 AM   #36
JamesN JamesN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew664 View Post
That model is the exact reason I wanted to look into presence speakers. What do you think of it so far?
I couldn't be happier with it. I've had my eye on it ever since it was released 4 years ago, but couldn't afford it until now. (As I'm sure you are aware, it's currently on fire sale and can be had for less than 1/2 its original retail price!)

My initial interests in the Z11 were the addition of rear presence speakers and true stereo subwoofer outputs. I also expected to hear some overall improvement in audio quality over my RX-V1800. But I wasn't prepared for what a startling leap it was. It's like a layer of grime has been wiped clean from the soundstage. I'm hearing things in my music and movies that were obviously always there but were never brought out until now.

Additionally, the DSP sound fields seem much richer, detailed, and less "gimmicky" (the rear presence speakers really help in this area).

I can't recommend this receiver enough. If you have any specific questions about it, feel free to PM me.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:35 AM   #37
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew664 View Post
Wow..

I was about to start a thread on this (edit: didn't even realize this was a sticky!! ), but I figured I'd do my research first and sure enough, the first Google listing for 'presence speakers' landed me here! I love this site!!

I was going to ask if a bipole/dipole speaker option would be better than a direct firing one since the purpose of the presence speakers are ambient sounds. Anyone have additional comments on this?

(Thanks JamesN!)
I have tripoles.

I just recently added presence speakers. My wife took down my back L and R surrounds so she could display her American Indian artwork on the back wall. A Haudenosaunee woman rules the home.

She made no objection to my mounting them 6 ft off the floor above the L and R front tower speakers. I have a 2 year old Yamaha RX V663 which has the option of setting up presence speakers.

The C-R100's, despite Energy Speakers calling them bipoles, aren't any such thing. They're tripoles actually in a sealed trapezoidal enclosure with a 5 in woofer on the front side and tweeters mounted on the other two sloped sides.

I really didn't expect them to sound that well after assuming monopoles would sound better. I never used the DSP modes that much and always ran the V663 in straight mode for Blu-ray. This was new territory for me.

Well, to my utter surprise, I was really impressed by the sound. There was a lot more depth added to the front stage. Sound effects sounded like they were coming from behind the screen. After setting the dialog lift to 2 for Standard which is my favorite DSP mode for movies, the dialog appeared to come from behind the screen too, where you see the people, instead of beneath where the center is.

The only glitch was with YPAO. It would run parametric EQ on all the speakers except the presence speakers. It did however identify them while YPAO was running. It set their distances and levels. It beats me why it didn't do EQ on them though.

I would say go for the bipoles if that's what you already have on hand. However, I wouldn't go out and buy a pair since they are rather expensive. On that note, I agree with JamesN. Unless you already have a pair of bipoles to use, go with less expensive monopoles.

Last edited by Yeha-Noha; 04-05-2011 at 04:55 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:02 PM   #38
Drew664 Drew664 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
I have tripoles.

I just recently added presence speakers. My wife took down my back L and R surrounds so she could display her American Indian artwork on the back wall. A Haudenosaunee woman rules the home.

She made no objection to my mounting them 6 ft off the floor above the L and R front tower speakers. I have a 2 year old Yamaha RX V663 which has the option of setting up presence speakers.

The C-R100's, despite Energy Speakers calling them bipoles, aren't any such thing. They're tripoles actually in a sealed trapezoidal enclosure with a 5 in woofer on the front side and tweeters mounted on the other two sloped sides.

I really didn't expect them to sound that well after assuming monopoles would sound better. I never used the DSP modes that much and always ran the V663 in straight mode for Blu-ray. This was new territory for me.

Well, to my utter surprise, I was really impressed by the sound. There was a lot more depth added to the front stage. Sound effects sounded like they were coming from behind the screen. After setting the dialog lift to 2 for Standard which is my favorite DSP mode for movies, the dialog appeared to come from behind the screen too, where you see the people, instead of beneath where the center is.

The only glitch was with YPAO. It would run parametric EQ on all the speakers except the presence speakers. It did however identify them while YPAO was running. It set their distances and levels. It beats me why it didn't do EQ on them though.

I would say go for the bipoles if that's what you already have on hand. However, I wouldn't go out and buy a pair since they are rather expensive. On that note, I agree with JamesN. Unless you already have a pair of bipoles to use, go with less expensive monopoles.
Thank you for your comments! I already have left over mono poles from my first HT set up. Those are perfect because the price is right and I can drill mounting plates/holes on the back of them and not worry much. You've basically reaffirmed what I was leaning to at this point - so thank you.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:12 PM   #39
kingofgrills kingofgrills is offline
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Has anyone tried placing presence speakers just inside their left and right front channels instead of outside them? If you look in my gallery, you'll see I have a bit of a space limitation on my left side due to the wall. It would be easier for me to set the presence speakers on the left and right corners of my wall unit, leaving them just inside my left and right mains. I have a pair of Aura monopole speakers to use as presence speakers, and they have a near 180 degree forward radiating pattern. Given that, I think imaging will be okay.

Here is a pic of the Auras. You can seen the cabinet in my gallery.

http://listeninn.com/catalog/imagema...430&page=popup

Thanks
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:44 PM   #40
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew664 View Post
Thank you for your comments! I already have left over mono poles from my first HT set up. Those are perfect because the price is right and I can drill mounting plates/holes on the back of them and not worry much. You've basically reaffirmed what I was leaning to at this point - so thank you.
Glad I could help. The presence channels don't seem to get much bass below 100 Hz. So any 4" or larger woofer teamed up with a decent tweeter should do well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofgrills View Post
Has anyone tried placing presence speakers just inside their left and right front channels instead of outside them? If you look in my gallery, you'll see I have a bit of a space limitation on my left side due to the wall. It would be easier for me to set the presence speakers on the left and right corners of my wall unit, leaving them just inside my left and right mains. I have a pair of Aura monopole speakers to use as presence speakers, and they have a near 180 degree forward radiating pattern. Given that, I think imaging will be okay.

Here is a pic of the Auras. You can seen the cabinet in my gallery.

http://listeninn.com/catalog/imagema...430&page=popup

Thanks
I mounted mine right in-line above my left and right towers. I don't know for certain, but I don't think it will take away from the effect that much if you have yours mounted slightly inside the front channels.

Ideally, according to Yamaha they need to be placed at least a foot outside the front channels. Mine are zero feet outside. Even so, I am pleased with the sound and their performance.

Hey, those Aura's look real nice! Those should do well too as presence speakers. The tweeters look well up to the task.
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