Is PCM better than Dolby Digital?

[un4gvn94538]

Originally Posted by Krandor

I am just getting my HD setup as well and have a related question. On my PS3 I have options for "Linear PCM" or "Bitstream". So based on this discussion I'm assuming "Linear PCM" is what I want?

using hdmi= lpcm

check craknhedz link above

[Sean4000]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

HOW TO GET: Uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD MASTER Audio

explained.

WOW! That explains it perfectly.

[krizzz]

Originally Posted by Sean4000

WOW! That explains it perfectly.

Agreed. TYVM!

[crackinhedz]

you are partially correct in the 7.1 part, 7.1 pcm needs to be handled by hdmi.

not true dude.

multichannel analog can also handle 7.1 (ex. Panasonic DMP BD-10a)

[skrill]

Originally Posted by hitechiowa

not true dude, you can get full 5.1 pcm via 5.1 analog out on players like the Sony S300 and others, you are partially correct in the 7.1 part, 7.1 pcm needs to be handled by hdmi. not bashing you or saying your wrong just givin a fellow poster some info

I am sorry -- you are 100% correct. I always forget about analog outs. I was only referencing toslink (optical cable) outs versus HDMI.

Toslink cannot transport any of the next gen codecs or uncompressed PCM in 5.1 (this includes -- DD+, TrueHD, DTS-MA and DTS-HR).

[Blu Falcon]

crackinhedz is my hero.

[PuzZLeR]

It's really quite obvious which is "better", DD or PCM, when coming from the same source.

PCM beats DD in quality since it's virtually exactly like the original.

DD's only advantage is that it's compressed to a smaller file size for almost the same quality. But data is lost in the process. DD is what's called a "lossy" codec.

Now, there are some good encoders out there that convert to DD, but no matter how good they are, DD will never sound 100% like the original whether theoretically or whether you can actually hear the difference.

You can never make a photocopy better than the original, no matter how good the machine. That's DD.

Now, if only I can figure out, assuming the same amount of channels, why the heck does a disc include both PCM and DD tracks? I can understand why a disc would want to use PCM or DD with the advantages of both, but if the decision was to allocate the space for PCM, why even bother including DD? Kind of redundant don't you think?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by PuzZLeR

Now, if only I can figure out, assuming the same amount of channels, why the heck does a disc include both PCM and DD tracks? I can understand why a disc would want to use PCM or DD with the advantages of both, but if the decision was to allocate the space for PCM, why even bother including DD? Kind of redundant don't you think?

Not redundant at all. The PCM multi-channel mix cannot be used by those with only optical or coaxial, so it's there for everyone to have access to a surround mix.

[hitechiowa]

crackinhedz is like a/v god on here. he has set up some sweet q&a threads about lossless audio and receivers he's a lifesaver cheers dude!

[crackinhedz]

cheers dude!

[PuzZLeR]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Not redundant at all. The PCM multi-channel mix cannot be used by those with only optical or coaxial, so it's there for everyone to have access to a surround mix.

I thought that the advantages of PCM superset those of DD, and digitally it does, but I didn't realize there's the issue of equipment. Thanks for the enlightenment. Makes sense now.

[gear]

Not that I think DD is better than PCM, but DD decoded in the player and sent as PCM can sound different than DD decoded by the receiver. why, because there is post processing in the receiver that is only applied to a DD signal (such dial norm for example) and features in a receiver that in some receivers can only be applied to a DD signal. If DD is decoded in the player and sent as PCM these types of DD specific parameters cannot be applied to a PCM signal. For instance some receivers can apply PLIIx post processing to a PCM signal as well as a DD signal while other receivers can only apply PLIIx to a DD signal. In this case the DD signal can use intellegent steering to take advantage of 7 speakers while the PCM signal can only use 5 speakers. In addition to PLIIx there's other post processing receivers apply to a DD signal we're not aware of.

I've compared DD decoded in the player(level matched) vs. DD in the receiver and in my receiver DD sounds completely different decoded in the receiver. I'm not saying DD is better than PCM it isn't, I'm just saying DD can sound "different" depending on where it's decoded. In my case DD decoded in the receiver is a huge improvement vs. DD decoded in the player.

[cajmoyper]

I didn't care to quote but someone above said that DTS HD HR is comparable to DD+. DD+ maxes out at 1509kb/s and DTS, a core track does the same. Am I missing something. Also, I don't know the bitrate for a DTS HD HR track. Besides, the only disc I know of with that on it is Stargate, a good movie, a terrible BD (i.e. subtitles).

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by tolledesign

Ok, so if I have the option for PCM, go ahead and always set to that? I'm still confused on what Dolby TrueHD is?

#1 = PCM (Lossless-Uncompressed)
#2 = DTS-HD MA (Lossless-Compressed)
#3 = Dolby TrueHD (Lossless-Compressed)*
#4 = DTS-HD (Lossy-Compressed)
#5 = DTS (Lossy-Compressed)
#6 = Dolby Digital 5.1 (Lossy-Compressed)**


* Because it often uses Dialog Normalization, Dolby TrueHD is ranked below DTS-HD MA. DTS-HD MA also tops out at a theorectical maximum of 24.5 mbps vs only 18.0 mbps for Dolby TrueHD.

** Because of Dialog Normalization and lower bitrates (448 kbit/s) Dolby Digital 5.1 is ranked below DTS (768 kbit/s or 1536 kbit/s depending on the movie)

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by hitechiowa

not true dude, you can get full 5.1 pcm via 5.1 analog out on players like the Sony S300 and others, you are partially correct in the 7.1 part, 7.1 pcm needs to be handled by hdmi. not bashing you or saying your wrong just givin a fellow poster some info

Well I am not aware of any stand-alone blu-ray players with 7.1 analog outputs, with the exception of the new top-of-the-line Denon player, but adequate PC setups DO provide 7.1 analog outputs. There are several sound cards with this capability as well as some motherboards.

[XSilentCobraX]

Hmm cant hear the difference in DD 5.1 or PCM 5.1 :S did some comparison with Underworld Unrated, DD 5.1 was 2 db higher, other then that cant hear difference, can some one tell me a movie and what scene in that movie you can SERIOUSLY tell (Hear) difference??

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by XSilentCobraX

Hmm cant hear the difference in DD 5.1 or PCM 5.1 :S did some comparison with Underworld Unrated, DD 5.1 was 2 db higher, other then that cant hear difference, can some one tell me a movie and what scene in that movie you can SERIOUSLY tell (Hear) difference??

I have made similar comparisons with some movies, in particular with Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest and I hardly noticed a difference with the particular scene i did the comparison with... scene where there is a coffin floating in the water, the beginning part of the movie. But at a different time, i did the comparison with Black Hawk Down... and I heard a night and day difference, between PCM and DD... PCM being much more dynamic and engaging!...

In my opinion I think you'll notice the difference with action-packed sequences, much like real life, where sounds just stand out more during lots of action, explosions vs. dialogue or ambient sounds. A lot has to do with how the soundtrack is being mixed/recorded. Some artists do a better job than others, I believe.

Personally for nigh-time viewing I chose the DD tracks, because i can control the dynamics of the sound, dialogue, bass and ambience is all at teh same level, because i live in an apt. complex, and loud sounds are very disturbing to my neighbors

[Danger Duck]

Soooooo, at the end of the day, what would be the best PS3 audio settings for BD on a KDS-50A2000...... ?
... I am using HDMI as well, but no fancy speakers, just the ones on the tv.. for now!

[musicman1999]

Originally Posted by cajmoyper

I didn't care to quote but someone above said that DTS HD HR is comparable to DD+. DD+ maxes out at 1509kb/s and DTS, a core track does the same. Am I missing something. Also, I don't know the bitrate for a DTS HD HR track. Besides, the only disc I know of with that on it is Stargate, a good movie, a terrible BD (i.e. subtitles).

DD+ max bitrate is 640.


bill

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by musicman1999

DD+ max bitrate is 640.


bill

I've seen DD+ bitrates of 1.5Mbps, from highdefdigest.com

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1304/beowulf2007.html

of course you will only see this on HD-DVD... ugh!!!! one of the reasons they lost in the high-end market if u ask me, too many technical limitations by the studios!