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Old 10-13-2019, 12:00 AM   #421
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
While I do agree it is not the most scintifically accurate scan of an audio mix, especially that it only reads the True-HD 7.1 part and not Atmos (hence the absence of overheads), it still shows the shortcomings of the actual listening experience. It also shows the other studio's mixes levels and the difference is obvious.
There is nothing scientific about it at all.

Quote:
Aside from those graphs, it is not like only a few number of people with crappy sound systems complain about Disney mixes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#14d02d70ef64

Let me know what do you think about that.
Note he doesn't talk about what he's using to make these observations.

Quote:
Are you trying to say those Disney mixes are flawless and other studios' mixes sound the same to you on your system?

Do you really believe it is a problem with the systems OR the people who complain about those mixes while the mixes themselves are flawless or at least they need proper volume and power?
Who said anything about flawless? In my 40 years of audio I've seen plenty of crap and I know exactly how to bring a system to its knees to demonstrate to someone why they should invest in research and quality components if they truly want a high fidelity audio experience.

Quote:
Why hasn't Disney ever commented or replied to anybody about this?
When is a time you saw any studio comment on this? Fox? Sony? Lionsgate? Paramount? Etc.

Quote:
Why some releases have no such issue? Endgame, Captain Marvel, and Ratatouille as examples IF there are no issues as you claim?
Different mixes. Ratatouille is a remix from 5.1 EX so there's no theatrical Atmos reference. End of story.

Quote:
And lastly, Why do ALL other releases from other studios sound flawless in comparison to these?
Oh really? Tell me again about how you think Spider-Man: Far From Home is perfect.

Quote:
Trust me, I know a thing or two about dynamic range and how sound with more headroom to volume raise is much better than a high volume/DRC applied crap sound track. This isn't the case.
If you knew about audio you would not own the receiver you have.

Nor would you post those level output caps.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:09 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
For the billionth time - The separate levels mean nothing when it's an entirely different mix and the channels in Atmos are full range - meaning what's usually mixed to the LFE in 5.1/7.1 is sent to other channels!

You can post all the pics you want but it's meaningless. Where's the output levels for the overheads? Hmmm???
I think itís safe to say the amount of misinformation and lack of experience is in abundance these days when it comes to audio.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:19 AM   #423
ROSS.T.G. ROSS.T.G. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
While I do agree it is not the most scintifically accurate scan of an audio mix, especially that it only reads the True-HD 7.1 part and not Atmos (hence the absence of overheads), it still shows the shortcomings of the actual listening experience. It also shows the other studio's mixes levels and the difference is obvious.

Aside from those graphs, it is not like only a few number of people with crappy sound systems complain about Disney mixes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#14d02d70ef64

Let me know what do you think about that.

And also, I would like to ask a few questions:

- Are you trying to say those Disney mixes are flawless and other studios' mixes sound the same to you on your system?

- Do you really believe it is a problem with the systems OR the people who complain about those mixes while the mixes themselves are flawless or at least they need proper volume and power?

- Why hasn't Disney ever commented or replied to anybody about this?

- Why some releases have no such issue? Endgame, Captain Marvel, and Ratatouille as examples IF there are no issues as you claim?

- And lastly, Why do ALL other releases from other studios sound flawless in comparison to these?

Trust me, I know a thing or two about dynamic range and how sound with more headroom to volume raise is much better than a high volume/DRC applied crap sound track. This isn't the case.
What you should be looking at is the extension of the LFE. I looked up your sub and on paper it only reaches 32hz, and that’s probably pushing it. Is it calibrated? If so with what? Is it a flat response? Lower end AVR ‘s that feature entry level calibration software doesn’t do much in the lower frequencies so you are probably experiencing nulls which would produce anemic bass. Bass is so hard to get right. Have you run REW?

I’ve had this discussion with a few members. If your sub can’t produce the ultra low frequencies you will likely feel let down. I had 2 similar spec subs and they just couldn’t deliver all the time. They would sound great for some movies and others I was scratching my head thinking it was the track. It wasn’t.

I’m not saying your gear is BAD. But you can only expect so much. Take my gear for example. I’m quite happy with my modest setup, it sounds excellent in my room. But in a larger room I would need bigger speakers and more power to drive them. There is so many variables at play with audio. Rooms are massive factor. The biggest factor actually. You could buy the best AVR with the most advanced room correction in a bad room and it’ll still sound bad. Treat that room, follow room placement guidelines etc and put a crappy AVR and it’ll sound better.

Last edited by ROSS.T.G.; 10-13-2019 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:46 AM   #424
r9800pro r9800pro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
There is nothing scientific about it at all.



Note he doesn't talk about what he's using to make these observations.



Who said anything about flawless? In my 40 years of audio I've seen plenty of crap and I know exactly how to bring a system to its knees to demonstrate to someone why they should invest in research and quality components if they truly want a high fidelity audio experience.



When is a time you saw any studio comment on this? Fox? Sony? Lionsgate? Paramount? Etc.



Different mixes. Ratatouille is a remix from 5.1 EX so there's no theatrical Atmos reference. End of story.



Oh really? Tell me again about how you think Spider-Man: Far From Home is perfect.



If you knew about audio you would not own the receiver you have.

Nor would you post those level output caps.
- Yes, John Archer didn't list his audio equipment but he should know what he is talking about.

- Sure, getting a better high fidelity audio experience is always good... IF the content is good enough and not flawed. It can make it sound better, but other high quality content will always sound better on the upgraded components.

- Sony replied to my email when I sent them about Far From Home:



- So you only commented on Ratatouille and ignored Captain Marvel and Endgame that DID have Atmos theatrical mixes. Not liking the idea of Disney being inconsistent, eh?

- You plicked THE ONLY Non Disney movie (Far From Home) that had the exact same issue as Disney releases to the point that people confused it for being a Disney release and that I, myself, complained about recently. Great arguing skills, really.

- In all honesty, I can listen to audio with any pair of headphones and immediately get what is wrong with it WHEN compared to another flawless one.
You didn't mention that an AVR can be enough for specific speaker sensitivity and room sizes which is totally enough for me for now... Plus, you didn't even assume these could be the best components in a country's market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G. View Post
What you should be looking at is the extension of the LFE. I looked up your sub and on paper it only reaches 32hz, and that’s probably pushing it. Is it calibrated? If so with what? Is it a flat response? Lower end AVR ‘s that feature entry level calibration software doesn’t do much in the lower frequencies so you are probably experiencing nulls which would produce anemic bass. Bass is so hard to get right. Have you run REW?

I’ve had this discussion with a few members. If your sub can’t produce the ultra low frequencies you will likely feel let down. I had 2 similar spec subs and they just couldn’t deliver all the time. They would sound great for some movies and others I was scratching my head thinking it was the track. It wasn’t.

I’m not saying your gear is BAD. But you can only expect so much. Take my gear for example. I’m quite happy with my modest setup, it sounds excellent in my room. But in a larger room I would need bigger speakers and more power to drive them. There is so many variables at play with audio. Rooms are massive factor. The biggest factor actually. You could buy the best AVR with the most advanced room correction in a bad room and it’ll still sound bad. Treat that room, follow room placement guidelines etc and put a crappy AVR and it’ll sound better.
I did run the calibration and then fine tuned the settings a lot.

It is true that the LFE is very hard to get right but it is very good in my case and I didn't complain a lot about it with those mixes. The main issues are the lack of good surround activity and the compressed flat sound that lacks punch even with higher volume.

The placement is great and the room is only 14x15 feet or so (18 meter square).

Again, all other movies sound great with the same setup with excellent power and sound that fill the room and great bass.

I just finished watching Men In Black International and the Atmos mix is reference quality.

And again, this has been an issue for Disney releases for so long and even on a computer with headphones, it is very obvious.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:16 AM   #425
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LULZ at the generic "thank you for contacting us" e-mail. They really addressed your exact concern there.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:18 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Wes_k089 View Post
Agreed, that puny Sony amp is rated for 165W 1ch driven . . .
My Denon is rated for 125W 2ch driven and I separately power my fronts.

I'll be watching this tonight with the equipment shown in my signature so I'll report back with my thoughts.
talking about sound quality, power ratings and high end receivers while owning a Polk T50 fronts, really ?!

power rating and high wattage are a part of the equation and you cannot address it alone, most people in homes owning a sound system rarely listen at reference level so do they really need a highly powered amp ?!, there is speaker efficiency, number, room size and volume level, also you don't get double db level for double wattage

so summing all of this in receiver power is so naive pardon me
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:38 PM   #427
ROSS.T.G. ROSS.T.G. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
- Yes, John Archer didn't list his audio equipment but he should know what he is talking about.

- Sure, getting a better high fidelity audio experience is always good... IF the content is good enough and not flawed. It can make it sound better, but other high quality content will always sound better on the upgraded components.

- Sony replied to my email when I sent them about Far From Home:



- So you only commented on Ratatouille and ignored Captain Marvel and Endgame that DID have Atmos theatrical mixes. Not liking the idea of Disney being inconsistent, eh?

- You plicked THE ONLY Non Disney movie (Far From Home) that had the exact same issue as Disney releases to the point that people confused it for being a Disney release and that I, myself, complained about recently. Great arguing skills, really.

- In all honesty, I can listen to audio with any pair of headphones and immediately get what is wrong with it WHEN compared to another flawless one.
You didn't mention that an AVR can be enough for specific speaker sensitivity and room sizes which is totally enough for me for now... Plus, you didn't even assume these could be the best components in a country's market.



I did run the calibration and then fine tuned the settings a lot.

It is true that the LFE is very hard to get right but it is very good in my case and I didn't complain a lot about it with those mixes. The main issues are the lack of good surround activity and the compressed flat sound that lacks punch even with higher volume.

The placement is great and the room is only 14x15 feet or so (18 meter square).

Again, all other movies sound great with the same setup with excellent power and sound that fill the room and great bass.

I just finished watching Men In Black International and the Atmos mix is reference quality.

And again, this has been an issue for Disney releases for so long and even on a computer with headphones, it is very obvious.
Take a look at my XT32 results. I can’t seem to find my REW results but this fine. Look at how messy the before results are. Things aren’t too awful until 40hz. Look at the massive dips from 70hz-100hz. Without sophisticated EQ like XT32 the real low stuff below 40hz is bloated and the bass that hits hard would be anemic.

The after results are much better with a very flat response with only a few dB dip around 70hz. Now it helps that I have dual subs that are the same model. When I had just the one sub no amount of room correction could achieve these results. Bass is not localized in my room, it completely surrounds me.

The point I’m making is the results in my room are pleasing for almost all content. Even the so called poor Disney mixes have heft and weight in the LFE region because I’ve made sure of it.

As for the dynamics? Could be a speaker issue. My speakers have great extension. Some would call them bright or forward. You can see in the before graph of my front left speaker how boomy the bass is. It also has great extension and doesn’t start rolling off until 15khz. My room is carefully treated with acoustic panels and soft furnishings but I still like a roll off earlier which is why I left XT32 full range. The sound is very articulate and detailed.

Depending if my wife is watching with me my volume habits very from -20db - 10db for critical listening. And aggressive DTS X track I will settle around -15db MV. A Disney track -10db is just right in my room. Sometimes-8db.


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Old 10-13-2019, 03:18 PM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G. View Post
Even the so called poor Disney mixes have heft and weight in the LFE region because I’ve made sure of it.
Me and another guy at AVS (both our set-ups cal'd and REW by Chad B) always say the same! Sometimes I don't know what people are hearing. Proper calibration for audio is just as important as video and maybe more important in some cases especially like this.
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Old 10-13-2019, 03:28 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyHitter View Post
Me and another guy at AVS (both our set-ups cal'd and REW by Chad B) always say the same! lol Sometimes I don't know what people are hearing. Proper calibration for audio is just as important as video and maybe more important in some cases especially like this.
Yep. I watched a good podcast not long ago discussing remixing for the home/Atmos. The Disney mixes are mixed to 75db. If someone is listening on a properly calibrated system with ample subs there shouldn’t be an issue but if you calibrate your subs to 75db and listen below reference they will lack impact. That’s why people usually calibrate to 78db because at lower volumes our ears struggle to hear bass. It’s the reason why Audyssey uses a dynamic EQ to restore balance at lower volumes. If I’m listening at -10db my subs are 4db hot. Most people prefer a house curve, rise in bass frequencies with a gradual rolloff of high frequencies.

I was looking at Dirac for room correction but I would miss DEQ too much. I’ll sometimes turn it off but I miss it. I’m a bass head so I leave it on.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:31 PM   #430
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I'm not an audiophile as much as I am a videophile, so frankly, as long as it's loud and immersive ENOUGH, especially on my surround speakers, it's all fine to me.
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:38 PM   #431
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It's so weird how The Digital Bits somehow gave the Atmos on GOTG 1 UHD an A+, yet gave Far From Home's Atmos a B- when it's of similar quality.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:45 PM   #432
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It's so weird how The Digital Bits somehow gave the Atmos on GOTG 1 UHD an A+, yet gave Far From Home's Atmos a B- when it's of similar quality.
Different reviewers on different sound systems.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:58 PM   #433
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I think I (and others in similar situations) notice the difference in quality so much because I rarely get to listen to things at ideal volumes since most of my movie watching is done at night while my son is sleeping. With most studios I still get a very immersive and full soundfield with nice dynamics even at lower volumes, but with Disney titles I usually do not. Though the difference in quality does often diminish when I get a chance to listen to them at near reference levels they never go away entirely. I'm pretty sure it's not my imagination.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:59 PM   #434
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Yep. I watched a good podcast not long ago discussing remixing for the home/Atmos. The Disney mixes are mixed to 75db. If someone is listening on a properly calibrated system with ample subs there shouldnít be an issue but if you calibrate your subs to 75db and listen below reference they will lack impact. Thatís why people usually calibrate to 78db because at lower volumes our ears struggle to hear bass. Itís the reason why Audyssey uses a dynamic EQ to restore balance at lower volumes. If Iím listening at -10db my subs are 4db hot. Most people prefer a house curve, rise in bass frequencies with a gradual rolloff of high frequencies.

I was looking at Dirac for room correction but I would miss DEQ too much. Iíll sometimes turn it off but I miss it. Iím a bass head so I leave it on.
Bingo. Exactly what I did! I have no issues, though I have yet to give Spiderman: Far From Home a spin to see what everyone is complaining about.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:11 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradnoyes View Post
I think I (and others in similar situations) notice the difference in quality so much because I rarely get to listen to things at ideal volumes since most of my movie watching is done at night while my son is sleeping. With most studios I still get a very immersive and full soundfield with nice dynamics even at lower volumes, but with Disney titles I usually do not. Though the difference in quality does often diminish when I get a chance to listen to them at near reference levels they never go away entirely. I'm pretty sure it's not my imagination.
This is exactly the case with me and with many others who complain about those mixes including reviewers.

In all honesty, inconsistency alone with Disney titles proves that they are doing something wrong. Watching Captain Marvel and Endgame in an IMAX 3D theatre and finding out that the home releases have very similar sound experience while other releases are far off would make you wonder what is going on.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:31 PM   #436
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Take a look at my XT32 results. I canít seem to find my REW results but this fine. Look at how messy the before results are. Things arenít too awful until 40hz. Look at the massive dips from 70hz-100hz. Without sophisticated EQ like XT32 the real low stuff below 40hz is bloated and the bass that hits hard would be anemic.

The after results are much better with a very flat response with only a few dB dip around 70hz. Now it helps that I have dual subs that are the same model. When I had just the one sub no amount of room correction could achieve these results. Bass is not localized in my room, it completely surrounds me.

The point Iím making is the results in my room are pleasing for almost all content. Even the so called poor Disney mixes have heft and weight in the LFE region because Iíve made sure of it.

As for the dynamics? Could be a speaker issue. My speakers have great extension. Some would call them bright or forward. You can see in the before graph of my front left speaker how boomy the bass is. It also has great extension and doesnít start rolling off until 15khz. My room is carefully treated with acoustic panels and soft furnishings but I still like a roll off earlier which is why I left XT32 full range. The sound is very articulate and detailed.

Depending if my wife is watching with me my volume habits very from -20db - 10db for critical listening. And aggressive DTS X track I will settle around -15db MV. A Disney track -10db is just right in my room. Sometimes-8db.


A very good explanation on how to set up things correctly.

This still doesn't explain though why the same issues occur with those mixes on a PC using a Sound Blaster Z card with dedicated headphones AMP and Sennheiser HD 650, Beyer DT1990 Pro and Bang & Olufsen Beoplay H6 2nd Gen (among others) headphones.

This is with using Atmos for Headphones technology on Windows 10 so the Atmos mixes are the ones playing not True-HD.

All other mixes are flawless at 60% volume but the Disney ones even at 100% volume are still lacking.

The thing is, some people are more sensitive to audio shortcomings than the others so it is really hard to tell.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:38 PM   #437
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Just finished watching this. I found the PQ in general to be really great. As for this AQ debate....I agree that a lot of Disney mixes miss the mark with dynamics and being too low, but this isn't one of them. I had to bump it up a few notches but there were still some dynamics present and plenty of LFE. Is it at the level of let's say Blade Runner 2049? No, but it's not all that bad either. This site gave it a 3.5? I'd agree with that and may even go as high as a 4, but no more.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:03 PM   #438
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Well, this can't be good news for the Disney audio trend.

"Deafening cinema sound is ruining films, claims Hugh Grant"

"Viewers think movies are too loud? Okay, flatten and soften!" -Disney
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:11 PM   #439
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Well, this can't be good news for the Disney audio trend.

"Deafening cinema sound is ruining films, claims Hugh Grant"

"Viewers think movies are too loud? Okay, flatten and soften!" -Disney
Not the same thing. That's volume related in the theatre itself. I often find it too loud as well.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:20 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
A very good explanation on how to set up things correctly.

This still doesn't explain though why the same issues occur with those mixes on a PC using a Sound Blaster Z card with dedicated headphones AMP and Sennheiser HD 650, Beyer DT1990 Pro and Bang & Olufsen Beoplay H6 2nd Gen (among others) headphones.

This is with using Atmos for Headphones technology on Windows 10 so the Atmos mixes are the ones playing not True-HD.

All other mixes are flawless at 60% volume but the Disney ones even at 100% volume are still lacking.

The thing is, some people are more sensitive to audio shortcomings than the others so it is really hard to tell.
I can’t explain how it’s sounds through a computer but like I said before if your system was calibrated with automatic room correction like Sony’s for example and the sub is flat at 75db then I would expect the results you are stating. Keep I’m mind a lot of WB and Sony and Universal titles have very aggressive LFE. I expect they are a few dB louder than the other channels. So sure those tracks will sound better to your ears because they are likely mixed louder than Reference volume. People keep saying Disney is mixing for soundbars but I get the feeling it’s the opposite. A lot of those tracks would be insufferably loud at -8db MV. Try it and see. Pop in Van Helsing to Mad Max and try listening at Reference. Your AVR would probably overheat.

Last edited by ROSS.T.G.; 10-13-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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