Speaker debate: do they really matter?

[JBowen]

Tried uploading some pics, but the files are too big and I don't know how to shrink them. All in all, I have the speaker placement down. Just need to find a way to mount the center speaker above the tv, but the Klipsch I have doesn't have a mount in the back so I'm looking for a discrete shelf type thing I can put above the tv. Once I find some free time, I'll hide the wires. Also playing with the surround speakers. I've mounted them where I want, but want to make them louder and more pronounced.

[sonic_debauchery]

These have a coaxial design which image superbly.... My dad has both of them. They are good.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-sVWwyh...350-Black.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-uWQjvb...150-Black.html


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...speaker-system 2 could be purchased for $500.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-LtTher...00M-Ebony.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...d_mounted.html


https://www.adorama.com/triborteb35b.html

Stunning affordable speakers! | The Triangle Borea BR03 Review! - YouTube

[Naiera]

I just noticed this thread now...

Asking whether speakers “really matter” is one of the single most bizarre things I’ve ever seen on this forum.

[rpatt]

Originally Posted by Naiera

I just noticed this thread now...

Asking whether speakers “really matter” is one of the single most bizarre things I’ve ever seen on this forum.

The question was "do surround speakers really matter". For me, they do very much.

[Naiera]

Right. So the title of the thread is misleading

[JBowen]

Originally Posted by Naiera

I just noticed this thread now...

Asking whether speakers “really matter” is one of the single most bizarre things I’ve ever seen on this forum.

For someone completely ignorant and willing to educate themselves, I believe it to be a fair question. I've learned so much from the wisdom of others so far. At least the title wasn't "Power debate: Do I really need to power my electronics". Back on track, I know creasybear stated not to go above 0.00db on my speaker setup but what if I really want to make my surround left and right pronounced?

[Hitman Horton]

Originally Posted by JBowen

For someone completely ignorant and willing to educate themselves, I believe it to be a fair question. I've learned so much from the wisdom of others so far. At least the title wasn't "Power debate: Do I really need to power my electronics". Back on track, I know creasybear stated not to go above 0.00db on my speaker setup but what if I really want to make my surround left and right pronounced?

All of your speakers should be around the same volume. When you're listening to something, you shouldn't be able to identify where it's coming from. That's why it's important that your speakers should all be from the same manufacturer. If you're cranking the surrounds to make them more pronounced then you aren't listening to surround sound as it was intended. My first surround set-up had speakers from different companies and when I finally got them all from one company, the difference was like night and day. When I updated from Cerwin Vega to Polk Audio, the quality of the sound improved again.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by JBowen

For someone completely ignorant and willing to educate themselves, I believe it to be a fair question. I've learned so much from the wisdom of others so far. At least the title wasn't "Power debate: Do I really need to power my electronics". Back on track, I know creasybear stated not to go above 0.00db on my speaker setup but what if I really want to make my surround left and right pronounced?

It's not about how loud the audio is, but how immersive it is. You have a great system with speakers that are very efficient. Your receiver should have no problem driving all of those with authority. If you want to crank the volume up a little, that's fine, but don't sacrifice clarity for loudness.

[esgonehdr]

Originally Posted by JBowen

... but what if I really want to make my surround left and right pronounced?

You've been getting great advice, and have some decent equipment!

Using the equalization built into your receiver should "balance" the sound well, but the source of the sound is as important as the speakers...consider that not every movie has "pronounced" surround effects...read reviews for movies you might be interested in, and search for "reference sound movies" for example, to "exercise" your sound system.

If you have hardware that can play back 5.1 music, I would also recommend getting some 5.1 music to play on your system to really get a feel for the sound capabilities of your system. Whatever genre of music you enjoy, there is probably some great 5.1 material to enjoy, and it might just give you the feel for your system that you are craving (nearly full-time use of all channels for music as opposed to the intermittent use of the rear surrounds for effects in many movies).

As always, YMMV...but you have a good system, and hope you are enjoying it! That's what matters in the end!

[StalkerVette]

I agree with all on this. When I was setting up my systems I always added more bias toward the center channel than was actually needed. The way an immersive set-up is like going to a theater, which movies of course by design are built towards. I've never gone to a theater and said Ah-ha, that is where the speakers is.

Fortunately with the excellent calibration software in many of the receivers the correction makes the bias seamless.

[oddbox83]

The more I learn, the more I realise how many people waste money on good speakers they never calibrate properly!

Calibration can make an average system sound good, and a good system superb. I don't mean auto stuff either. I always used to use Audyssey and the like. Again, the more I get the know, the more I go in manually and see the errors auto calibration has made and fix them. When I learned how to set crossovers correctly for example, I discovered how wildly inaccurate Audyssey is for Atmos speakers.

I'm almost confident enough to do a complete manual calibration of my system to ensure I'm getting the very best out of it... Not totally sure I'm brave enough yet, might go halfway and still base it on an auto calibration and just redo on top.

[StalkerVette]

Pick up an dB meter, I purchased this unit on Amazon under $20.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by StalkerVette

Pick up an dB meter, I purchased this unit on Amazon under $20.

I've been looking at those, also reading articles that suggest my iPhone could do the job pretty accurately too.

Not so sure about bass though, would a proper meter be better at detecting that because I read the bass can be troublesome to detect properly.

Any advice on subwoofer phase settings? This still confuses me a bit so I don't change it, but at MLP I find I get inconsistent bass so is this something I should be looking into? (I also want to find that elusive perfect balance between good bass and not annoying the neighbours.)

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I've been looking at those, also reading articles that suggest my iPhone could do the job pretty accurately too.

Not so sure about bass though, would a proper meter be better at detecting that because I read the bass can be troublesome to detect properly.

Any advice on subwoofer phase settings? This still confuses me a bit so I don't change it, but at MLP I find I get inconsistent bass so is this something I should be looking into? (I also want to find that elusive perfect balance between good bass and not annoying the neighbours.)

A decibel meter is not going to help you properly set up a subwoofer, as there is a lot more to it than just measuring volume. Setting up a sub properly needs to take into consideration placement, phase, crossover, and gain. When you get it right, you should not be able to tell where your subwoofer(s) is/are located in the room. You should also get the impression that your sub and mains are the same speaker(s) when you have them set up correctly. There are some tools out there that do a solid job with bass such as REW (Room EQ Wizard) or processors with Dirac, but I still prefer to trust my ears and brain.

First question would be does your sub have a phase setting switch of either 0 or 180? Or do you have a knob with several positions?

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by gotmule

A decibel meter is not going to help you properly set up a subwoofer, as there is a lot more to it than just measuring volume. Setting up a sub properly needs to take into consideration placement, phase, crossover, and gain. When you get it right, you should not be able to tell where your subwoofer(s) is/are located in the room. You should also get the impression that your sub and mains are the same speaker(s) when you have them set up correctly. There are some tools out there that do a solid job with bass such as REW (Room EQ Wizard) or processors with Dirac, but I still prefer to trust my ears and brain.

First question would be does your sub have a phase setting switch of either 0 or 180? Or do you have a knob with several positions?

Placement is complex, I can't get prime placement due to room layout (doors to the left and right, no gap between media cabinet and these doors to put it) so have it off to one side with a sofa inbetween it and MLP, probably why the Audyssey calibrated setting is maximum +12db, sounds OK to me though I do wonder if I need a 2nd sub, where it would go is difficult though. Thing is, I like precise bass and hate boomy bass so how it sounds like now is sort of my preference, I just wish I didn't have a niggling doubt.

It's got a crossover knob from 0 to 180. It's set to 80 right now on both the knob and in the AVR which sounds better integrated than the odd 120 Audyssey autocal did. I've got individual speaker crossovers set in the receiver as well (80 for core speakers, 100 for the Atmos modules), again changed from autocal because it had misjudged some speakers quite badly from the actual frequency response on their spec sheets (again, it can't do Atmos properly at all!).

Is the Audyssey Multi-EQ app worth the price or a piece of fluff?

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

Placement is complex, I can't get prime placement due to room layout (doors to the left and right, no gap between media cabinet and these doors to put it) so have it off to one side with a sofa inbetween it and MLP, probably why the Audyssey calibrated setting is maximum +12db, sounds OK to me though I do wonder if I need a 2nd sub, where it would go is difficult though. Thing is, I like precise bass and hate boomy bass so how it sounds like now is sort of my preference, I just wish I didn't have a niggling doubt.

It's got a crossover knob from 0 to 180. It's set to 80 right now on both the knob and in the AVR which sounds better integrated than the odd 120 Audyssey autocal did. I've got individual speaker crossovers set in the receiver as well (80 for core speakers, 100 for the Atmos modules), again changed from autocal because it had misjudged some speakers quite badly from the actual frequency response on their spec sheets (again, it can't do Atmos properly at all!).

Is the Audyssey Multi-EQ app worth the price or a piece of fluff?

I am generally not a fan of Audyssey, but it does serve its purpose for those less adventurous in setting up a system. It will often make errors in its calculations as you have experienced, but then again, you can’t expect a lot with the cheap microphone receivers and processors usually come with. There is Audyssey Pro, but that requires an investment and usually someone who knows their way around the program.

Thank you for the info on your crossover. What about the phase adjustment? What model sub do you have and what is the rest of your speaker setup?

[oddbox83]

Phase has a switch to toggle, 0 or 180. Doesn’t make any difference I can tell. By gain do you mean the volume dial physically on the sub itself? I have that set halfway as is recommended for calibrating. It’s Focal speakers, sib evo 5.2 and a cub evo sub. They’re great little speakers, I suppose they’d be considered solid mid-tier performers by the price.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

Phase has a switch to toggle, 0 or 180. Doesn’t make any difference I can tell. By gain do you mean the volume dial physically on the sub itself? I have that set halfway as is recommended for calibrating. It’s Focal speakers, sib evo 5.2 and a cub evo sub. They’re great little speakers, I suppose they’d be considered solid mid-tier performers by the price.

With phase, the goal is to have the sub and your speakers working together at the same time. Meaning, they should be pushing air at the same moment. When they are synced that way, you get the illusion of a speaker capable of producing lower frequencies than what your Focals can do. This is actually easy to test. A common mistake in setting phase is to have only the sub playing, flipping the switch from 0 to 180, and not hearing any difference. The best way to do it is to pick a scene in a movie with a sizable explosion or a cd with a heavy bass drum, and listen to it with your speakers and subs playing. Start at 0 and listen a couple of times, then switch it to 180 and see which one is basically louder or fuller. This will be where the sub is working together with your speakers based on where everything is in your room as your room is really what determines the outcome.

Your sub is down firing with a front facing port, and as a rule of thumb, down firing subs work best in corners as it uses the room to load the bass correctly in the room. Even a back corner can sometimes work. Given you have an inadvertent bass trap with a couch being between you and your sub, Audyssey is trying to overcome that and increasing the level +12. Be careful with this though as +12 for a sub output can be asking maybe too much of your sub, and on certain scenes and movies, you could do some damage to it.


Gain is the same thing as volume, and leaving it at 12 o’clock is the right way to calibrate. With crossovers, it sounds like you have them set right from your description, but don’t be afraid to nudge up the crossover a bit on the sub just to see if that helps out.

A second sub will help out, but I would see if another spot in the room might sound better with the one you have before you invest your money. I am definitely a fan of multiple subs, but placement becomes even more important when you are running more than one.

I totally understand having the question or double guessing if everything is setup properly. That is also part of the fun with this hobby as you can tweak and experiment. I hope this helps.

[oddbox83]

I played a disc menu which played looped music - that worked and I decided 180 phase did sound fuller. I’ve tweaked LPF for LFE in the AVR back up to 120hz and maxed out the crossover dial on the sub as I found out I may have inadvertently been causing a crossover cascade with both trying to do the same job. Doesn’t sound massively different but I feel a bit more confident in it.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I played a disc menu which played looped music - that worked and I decided 180 phase did sound fuller. I’ve tweaked LPF for LFE in the AVR back up to 120hz and maxed out the crossover dial on the sub as I found out I may have inadvertently been causing a crossover cascade with both trying to do the same job. Doesn’t sound massively different but I feel a bit more confident in it.

Nice job working through all of that. I have always been a fan of Focal stuff. Enjoy your setup!