Yamaha Presence Speakers Explained

[kingofgrills]

Thanks! I need to dive into the system anyway, to add a Yamaha SACD player, so I will add the presence speakers at that time.

I meant to run the cabling when I installed the wall unit, but I forgot to do it.

[CatBlu]

Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha

Glad I could help. The presence channels don't seem to get much bass below 100 Hz. So any 4" or larger woofer teamed up with a decent tweeter should do well.


I mounted mine right in-line above my left and right towers. I don't know for certain, but I don't think it will take away from the effect that much if you have yours mounted slightly inside the front channels.

Ideally, according to Yamaha they need to be placed at least a foot outside the front channels. Mine are zero feet outside. Even so, I am pleased with the sound and their performance.

Hey, those Aura's look real nice! Those should do well too as presence speakers. The tweeters look well up to the task.

I also set up my presance speakers above my mains (Klipsich S1) and the effect is good. Allows me to lift the dialog to the screen and has some positive effects in movies as well.

[rana_kirti]

Hi JamesN,

I'm looking for some feedback on the "Rear-Presence" performance of Yamaha AVRs which have this feature.

i'm planning to get the Yamaha A3000 which has "Rear-Presence".

I had some questions for you...

1. If i install a 9.1 setup with Front Presence, Fronts, Center, Side Surrounds and "Rear-Presence" and play a 5.1 encoded movie.

In this instance what will be the role of the "Rear-Presence" speakers and how will they add to the experience ?

Warm Regards,

Rana

Cheers

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by rana_kirti

Hi JamesN,

I'm looking for some feedback on the "Rear-Presence" performance of Yamaha AVRs which have this feature.

i'm planning to get the Yamaha A3000 which has "Rear-Presence".

I had some questions for you...

1. If i install a 9.1 setup with Front Presence, Fronts, Center, Side Surrounds and "Rear-Presence" and play a 5.1 encoded movie.

In this instance what will be the role of the "Rear-Presence" speakers and how will they add to the experience ?

Warm Regards,

Rana

Cheers

Hi Rana,
As you know, presence speakers are used to reproduce the ambient reverberations and reflections of real listening venues (concert halls, jazz clubs, movie theaters, etc.) They add a sense of spaciousness and realism to your listening experience.

Rear presence speakers reproduce the ambient effects that would normally originate from behind you. Those Yamaha AVRs that do not include rear presence channels mix the rear ambient effects in with the side and/or rear channels. This can result in a "busy" and even "muddy" rear sound stage.

Some Yamaha AVRs (like the Z-11 and the A3000 you are considering) have dedicated rear presence channels to handle the rear ambient effects so that the side and rear surround channels are left unadulterated. The result is a clear and articulate, yet spacious, rear sound stage.

If you have the means and the space, I would highly recommend adding rear presence speakers. When set up correctly, the effect is subtle but amazing, especially on live music. If you like classical or jazz (or even rock concerts), it will add a new dimension to your listening experience.

Best of luck with your new setup and post back with whatever you decide!
James

[rana_kirti]

James,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It's quite clear to me now. So I'm sure it's quite good for live music as you mentioned.

But is it also good for "Movie Performance".....? I ask that since I'll be using the new AVR exclusively only for movies in my HT room. So can you throw some light on the performance of "Rear Presence" as far as movies go...?

Also can you tell me how the Yamaha Presence is different from Dolby IIz ?

Warm Regards,

Rana

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by rana_kirti

James,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It's quite clear to me now. So I'm sure it's quite good for live music as you mentioned.

But is it also good for "Movie Performance".....? I ask that since I'll be using the new AVR exclusively only for movies in my HT room. So can you through some light on the performance of "Rear Presence" as far as movies go...?

Also can you tell me how the Yamaha Presence is different from Dolby IIz ?

Warm Regards,

Rana

There is certainly a large element of personal preference involved. I personally find that Yamaha's movie sound fields contribute to the overall "theatrical" experience by expanding the perceived size of the room and making it seem more like you are in an actual theater rather than a small living space. However (and again just my personal opinion) I don't think the movie modes are quite as exciting or compelling as the music modes.

You need to decide for yourself how critical the rear presence speakers are going to be for you. The nice thing is, if you go with the A3000, you can always start without them. As I said previously, the AVR will mix the rear presence information in with your side surrounds. You can do some A/B comparisons (turning the sounds fields off and on) and see how you like it. If you find that you do like the effect of Yamaha's sound fields, you can later add dedicated rear presence speakers for the full effect.

As far as Yamaha's DSP technology vs. Dolby IIz, Yamaha presence sounds fields are synthesized ambient effects based on measurements taken from real-world venues. What you hear in the presence speakers does not necessarily exist in the source. Dolby IIz, on the other hand, extracts sounds and spatial cues from the source content and re-routes them to the height speakers. So the main difference is generated (Yamaha) vs. extracted (Dolby IIz) sounds. There are proponents of each technology. (But if you ask me I will of course be biased. )

[rana_kirti]

James thanks for the explanation...

Though i'd like to understand the difference between Presence vs. Dolby IIz with the help of an example.

Since you understand this better could you tell me how both these methods will "sound different" in the following scenes...?

1. Rain fall during a scene.

2. Helicopter arriving from the top left of the screen in the front and landing at the bottom left of the screen in the front.

3. There is a gaint tall dinasaur who's head is at the top of the screen is growling at a smaller dinasaur who's head it at the taller dinasaur's knee height.


Regards,

Rana

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by rana_kirti

James thanks for the explanation...

Though i'd like to understand the difference between Presence vs. Dolby IIz with the help of an example.

Since you understand this better could you tell me how both these methods will "sound different" in the following scenes...?

1. Rain fall during a scene.

2. Helicopter arriving from the top left of the screen in the front and landing at the bottom left of the screen in the front.

3. There is a gaint tall dinasaur who's head is at the top of the screen is growling at a smaller dinasaur who's head it at the taller dinasaur's knee height.


Regards,

Rana

Hi Rana,
I have no idea. I have never personally heard a Dolby IIz system in action.

From your questions though, I think you might be setting yourself up for some high expectations of "presence" and/or "height" channels. From personal experience, I can tell you that Yamaha's sound fields will add an overall feeling of spaciousness to the audio. They will not, however, add any discernible vertical directionality to the sound stage. In other words, you won't hear sounds appearing to move vertically.

I would be surprised if Dolby IIz were much different in this regard, especially since there are no current soundtracks I am aware of that are specifically matrixed for vertical motion effects. Dolby IIz is making educated guesses from spatial clues in the soundtrack as to which sounds are ambient (e.g. rainfall) and therefore candidates for routing to the height channels.

Don't expect miracles in either case.

[rana_kirti]

now that DTS Neo X is coming.. would Yamaha have it in their next live of AVRs ?

[comp1demon]

I just bought the Yamaha 867 receiver and been doing a lot of READING. There is so much sound technology I really need to learn a lot.

Long story short - I know my 867 is capable of front presence speakers. I ended up with an extra pair of RM8 satellites that should be perfect. Now does the 867 share the PRESENCE output with the rear surrounds? If so I guess I am at the mercy of the receiver as it picks and chooses what to use? or does the 867 allow Front presence with 7.2? As I do have a 7.2 setup?

Second question based on the answer of the first few. If the front presence is shared with the rear surround, If I want to keep 7.2 with front presence can I use the Front presence PREAMP out to a 2 channel Amplifier to power the front presence? Will that work? If so is that technically 9.2?

Last question. Here is a photo of the FRONT setup

Can someone use paint brush or something and circle where to mount the front presence speakers the room is 18' wide - the ceilings are 9' high and my energy towers are about 3 1/2 high.

Thanks in advance forum...

[rana_kirti]

Hi James,

Can you tell us more about what the "CinemaDSP HD3" mode does ?

I trying to figure how switching it ON & OFF makes difference to the Movie Sound ? I Was going through the Z11 manual and it seems the "CinemaDSP HD3" is independent from the movie modes like Adventure/Sci-Fi/Spectacle.

1. So if you already have one of these Movie modes ON and then you switch ON the "CinemaDSP HD3" then in what ways does it change the Movie Sound ?

2. Also are all the 4 Presence Speakers activated only in the "CinemaDSP HD3" or without it also ?

Regards,

Rana

[Kwikas]

I don't know if anyone is still here...helloooooo

This whole DSP thingy is very interesting - especially for those of us who might like to experiment with height channels. I have a question though.....and that is, what if I want to get front and rear presence channels happening without using a receiver like the Z-11 or A3000?

There used to be a DSP-1 and the later iteration DSP-100 which do not have amp sections in them. Can these still be used to create front and rear heights? I have a bunch of power amps I could use with a DSP-1 or DSP-100 but I'm not sure about the utility of these DSP boxes.

Can anyone comment?

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Kwikas

I don't know if anyone is still here...helloooooo

This whole DSP thingy is very interesting - especially for those of us who might like to experiment with height channels. I have a question though.....and that is, what if I want to get front and rear presence channels happening without using a receiver like the Z-11 or A3000?

There used to be a DSP-1 and the later iteration DSP-100 which do not have amp sections in them. Can these still be used to create front and rear heights? I have a bunch of power amps I could use with a DSP-1 or DSP-100 but I'm not sure about the utility of these DSP boxes.

Can anyone comment?

Yes, as long as you can tap into your L/R main channel signals. So if you have an AVR with pre-out/main-in jacks or a separate preamp/amp setup, you can make use of the DSP-1 along with a 4 additional amp channels and speakers.

Note though that these units will only process information from stereo sources. That doesn't mean that you can't use them in a multi-channel setup -- it only means that you will only be able to feed them input from 2 channels (unless you are able to feed them a stereo mixdown while simultaneously feeding the rest of your system the original discrete channels.)

It might be a fun experiment, but I don't think the results are going to rival what the Z11 or A3000 can do.

If you are looking for a used DSP-1, make sure you snag one with a remote. The unit is worthless without one since very few of the functions can be accessed from the unit itself.

[rjgilliard]

This is to address some of Sir Terrance's issues with the Yamaha Sound Field Control System (it is implemented through DSP technology) About the recordings being produced to be played back on loudspeakers without any processing during playback. What loudspeakers, and in what rooms are any recordings produced to be played back in? Every situation is going to provide a unique sound field, loudspeakers to listener's ears. After the room and loudspeakers have been acoustically optimized, there still exist a dissimilarity between the sound field integral to the recording (i.e. a live recording of the Westminster Cathedral Choir performing a work by Victoria in Westminster Cathedral) and the sound field produced by the loudspeakers in the playback space. The local playback sound field will mask the the sound field of the source. This can easily be confirmed by selecting a set of headphones that are compatable with the type recorded program material, and make a comparison. Yamaha, itself, uses a similar system (Active Field Control-AFC) to 'neutralize' their Piano Salon room (N.Y.C.)that in its native condition, is an acoustical diaster. The sound fields provided with the DSP-1 come with adjustable parameters for each sound field. The system will achieve the task of 'neutralizing' the room by adjusting the different parameters of, for example, the 'Munster' (cathedral)sound field until the perceived response of listening through the headphones and listening through the loudspeakers are as close a match as possible. Nothing is perfect, however, I have set this system up and used this process to be able to perceive the acoustical signature of the Westminster Cathedral on these recordings without masking from the native local sound field.

[n00b]

Hi JamesN or anyone who might know something about this

Theres one thing I don't quite understand regarding the rear presence speakers. In the Z11 the system allowed for full use of rear presence and back speakers, ie being an 11.2 system. In the new yamaha flagships the A3010 or RX-V3071, the system is only listed as 9.2. Does that mean that on these systems either the rear presence or surround back will work depending on the settings and that the Z11 is the only true 11.2 system available or am I misunderstanding something about the Z11 and new yamaha models?

Thanks

[JamesN]

The A3010 is listed as a "9.2+2" receiver. It has connectors for 11 speakers, but only 9 on-board channels of amplification. This means, if you want to use only the provided on-board amplification, you can't play all 11 speakers simultaneously. (The surround back and rear presence channels pull double duty, with the receiver deciding which set to use based on content.)

However, according to pages 24, 25, etc. of the user's manual, there are alternate configurations you can employ using external amps to drive one or both sets of presence speakers and giving you the full-blown 11-channel configuration.

Originally Posted by n00b

Hi JamesN or anyone who might know something about this

Theres one thing I don't quite understand regarding the rear presence speakers. In the Z11 the system allowed for full use of rear presence and back speakers, ie being an 11.2 system. In the new yamaha flagships the A3010 or RX-V3071, the system is only listed as 9.2. Does that mean that on these systems either the rear presence or surround back will work depending on the settings and that the Z11 is the only true 11.2 system available or am I misunderstanding something about the Z11 and new yamaha models?

Thanks

[Kwikas]

Originally posted by JamesN
Yes, as long as you can tap into your L/R main channel signals. So if you have an AVR with pre-out/main-in jacks or a separate preamp/amp setup, you can make use of the DSP-1 along with a 4 additional amp channels and speakers.

Note though that these units will only process information from stereo sources. That doesn't mean that you can't use them in a multi-channel setup -- it only means that you will only be able to feed them input from 2 channels (unless you are able to feed them a stereo mixdown while simultaneously feeding the rest of your system the original discrete channels.)

It might be a fun experiment, but I don't think the results are going to rival what the Z11 or A3000 can do.

If you are looking for a used DSP-1, make sure you snag one with a remote. The unit is worthless without one since very few of the functions can be accessed from the unit itself.

Many belated thanks for the clarification James. I've only just checked back here.
Hmmmm....ok point taken re quality of sound from the aged DSP-1/100 vs the Z11or A3000 as regards the presence channels. It's a bit of a pain though. I don't want the full receiver - just the preamp stage and it seems to be a waste to buy a whole receiver just for that.

Perhaps it's time Yamaha made and sold a preamp version only......

Cheers

[surp]

I too have had Yamaha receivers and have enjoyed DSP for about 15 years now. I just now bought an RX-V2095 (for $100 - lol) and set up the presence speakers and really like the effect.

This topic covers all the information which i need to know.

[saqr]

Thanks a lot