Bi-amping Bi-wiring research material

[plowmanjoe]

Originally Posted by brett_day

how do you bi amp? i have wondered this for a while

i have the 605 and to bi-amp your front speakers you use the extra 6th and 7th channel to connect to your lows separately from your highs. it's in the manual.

[nezff]

Originally Posted by brett_day

how do you bi amp? i have wondered this for a while

like this

[JasonR]

I am a little confused. For 7.1 movies, does the surround track get pushed to the front?

[jomari]

Originally Posted by JasonR

I am a little confused. For 7.1 movies, does the surround track get pushed to the front?

to over simplify it, you are using the amplifiers used for the rear speakers, and use them towards your current fronts.

7.1 now turns into 5.1.

this thread has more than enough details on the topic, lemme draw it for y'all... as posted by dblackgt

[mrpink134]

I understand the graph, but I have a question? I have a 663 7.1 and in the setup I can turn on the rears. Do I turn them off when bi amp or turn them on?

[JasonR]

^^ I guess that is my question as well. How does my receiver know not to send the rear surround channels decoded information to the front? How does it know just to increase amplification?

[plowmanjoe]

Originally Posted by JasonR

^^ I guess that is my question as well. How does my receiver know not to send the rear surround channels decoded information to the front? How does it know just to increase amplification?

on the onkyo you change the speaker type from normal to bi-amp, then it knows.

[sendmorebrains]

Hey Guys

Been Bi-amping then moved it to Multi Amping when George Lucas said that sound is 50% of the movie experience - so I thought then 51% should even be more better.


My set-up is actually very simple well sort of.

Main amp is a Pioneer VSX-1016TXV THX 7.1 is used for ONLY the mids and highs.

The left and right of these speakers sit with spiked feet under the 10" woofers that are powered by -

an Onkyo HT-R520 powering a pair of 10" woofers in 2 cubic feet custom built MDF boxes which sit with spiked feet on top of a pair of 12" woofers powered by -

a Pioneer VSX-D812 powering a pair of 12" boxes 3 cubic feet in size which sits spiked on the floor.

Another Pioneer VSX-D812 powers a pair of 12" boxes 5 cubic feet in size firing into the back of a 3 person reclining sofa.


OK why u wonder 3 sets of SUBS and do I get a standing wave nightmare with so many subs. How does one adjust the volume for all the amps ?

The starting point was tone setting for the main amp was cold neutral .. a personal pref cuz subs warm the sound up done with main amp prefrences and checked w/a sound meter from Radio shack for balance. The room itself was tuned w/ heavy curtains thick, carpeting to reduce reflection in a 840ish sq ft room.

No to standing wave due to the placement of furniture palcement. Also it has been verified from an unbiased study that 2 pair of subs(4) works best so I set it like that and the last pair are firing INTO the rear end of the sofa thus its there more for FEEL rather than sound.

Ohh btw I should point out that I built all my speakers boxes(with the exception of the dual centers speakers- store purchased) from 1" MDF and were braced inside for stiffness and were tuned ported. The left & right front, sideL&R & rearL&R are all 2 ways with a 1" tweeter and 4" mids from Vifa and the 10"&12" woofers are Phillips and Swans drivers.

To add to my setup I run a pair of Polk AudioCSI-A6 centre channel speakers(one on top of the other just under the frame of the 62".

Although I could have just tuned the centre louder from the main amp - spreading it this way did the same but with more focus/presence for lack of a better word(s). Beside the main amp has plenty of wattage to push both pair of centers since.

So can this system vibrate the bath water upstairs when say playing Remember That Night - David Gilmore BD yes yes it can BUT watch OUT for the items in the china cabinet and wet bar with the crystal glasses on the shelf. Yet it has decent accuracy for dialogue as well.

So I say multi amp away and your wildest dreams will come true.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by brett_day

how do you bi amp? i have wondered this for a while

Originally Posted by JasonR

I am a little confused. For 7.1 movies, does the surround track get pushed to the front?

I believe there is some confusion as far as bi-wiring and bi-amping are concerned.

The majority of people use passive bi-wiring and bi-amping without the use of external crossovers. Therefore, I limit my discussion to passive setups.

Passive bi-wiring requires that you run two wires from the same power source to the low frequency and high frequency drivers. The benefit of bi-wiring is minimal or non-existent.

Passive bi-amping requires that you run wires from two separate power sources to the high frequency and low frequency drivers. There are three different types of passive bi-amping. The diagram below demonstrates Standard bi-amping with two separate external amplifiers.

The following diagram demonstrates Vertical bi-amping with two external amplifiers:

The third type of passive bi-amping is with an AV receiver. Some of the older AV receivers such as the NAD 773 in the following diagram had pre-outs and main-ins for all the channels. They were connected with removable jumpers.

This allowed a great deal of flexibility as you could use the built-in amplifiers for other applications such as bi-amping. For example, you could use Y adapters (1 male, 2 female) and run one set of RCA cables from pre-outs for fronts to the main-ins for fronts and another set of RCA cables from pre-outs for fronts to the main-ins for back channels. With this modification, it would be possible to use the front speaker terminals for high frequency drivers and back channel speaker terminals for low frequency drivers.

Most new A/V receivers do not have main-ins for all the channels. A few of the high-end models such as the Denon 5308CI receiver have this option. Other receivers such as my Denon 4308CI allow to use the surround back channels for bi-amping. The label for the pre-outs back channels is Surround Back/Bi-amp Assign. To take advantage of this option, you need to go to the receiver's menu and change the surround back channels for bi-amping. If you do this, your system will be reduced to 5.1. Although I am not familiar with other receivers, I am certain that other high-end A/V receivers from Pioneer, Onkyo, Sony, Marantz, Yamaha, etc. can do the same.

Bi-amping will enhance the sound much more than bi-wiring. However, the best way to bi-amp a speaker is with external amplifiers. Some speakers such as Definitive Technology Super Towers allow for tri-amping. They already have a built-in powered subwoofer. I have tried tri-amping on my Def. Tech super towers and it improved the sound slightly.

CONCLUSIONS

1. You cannot use bi-amping and bi-wiring on all speakers. The speakers must have separate terminals for the high frequency and low frequency drivers.
2. Not all receivers offer the option of using the rear channel amplifiers for bi-amping. Some do and some don’t.
3. The improvement in sound quality with bi-wiring is minimal or non-existent.
4. The improvement in sound quality with bi-amping is more than bi-wiring, but don’t expect miracles.
5. When you use the rear channel amplifiers of a receiver for bi-amping, your setup will be reduced from 7.1 to 5.1.
6. The proper way of bi-amping is with external amplifiers. Amplifiers have their own separate power supplies and offer better sound quality than receivers.

[JasonR]

Thanks guys for answering my question. I will look at my amp and see if I can change my surround backs to biamp. I am only running 5.1 anyway.

[PS3+HDDVD OWNER]

Question:


I have an Onkyo 605, CS2 Center, Monitor 50 fronts, and soon to be decided rears (maybe another pair of 50's) Subwoofer will soon follow.

Im planning on starting off with 5.1, so would it be beneficial to bi-amp my setup since im planning on starting off at 5.1 anyways?

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by PS3+HDDVD OWNER

Question:


I have an Onkyo 605, CS2 Center, Monitor 50 fronts, and soon to be decided rears (maybe another pair of 50's) Subwoofer will soon follow.

Im planning on starting off with 5.1, so would it be beneficial to bi-amp my setup since im planning on starting off at 5.1 anyways?

Why not? I personally think there is some difference, though it may be marginal at best, if you're not using the connections anyway, what's the harm (other than a little more speaker wire)?

I do it and prefer it, placebo or not.

[sendmorebrains]

YES -

Just do it.

Have a little fun with ur system and this can possible expand other ideas that you may have not yet even considered.


Look the worst that can happen ( assuming that u are careful with wiring ) is that you used up more wire and that u dont like the end result.

My end result for my multi-amp set up reads at my sig.
I have about 1400 watts running and yes it does the job just fine. So each home setup is trial and error till YOU are happy.

Question:


I have an Onkyo 605, CS2 Center, Monitor 50 fronts, and soon to be decided rears (maybe another pair of 50's) Subwoofer will soon follow.

Im planning on starting off with 5.1, so would it be beneficial to bi-amp my setup since im planning on starting off at 5.1 anyways?

[Slec]

When I bi-amped my fronts, the wife commented that it sounded different (better) and I did it while she wasn't home... no placebo effect there

[PS3+HDDVD OWNER]

Originally Posted by sendmorebrains

YES -

Just do it.

Have a little fun with ur system and this can possible expand other ideas that you may have not yet even considered.


Look the worst that can happen ( assuming that u are careful with wiring ) is that you used up more wire and that u dont like the end result.

My end result for my multi-amp set up reads at my sig.
I have about 1400 watts running and yes it does the job just fine. So each home setup is trial and error till YOU are happy.

Question:


I have an Onkyo 605, CS2 Center, Monitor 50 fronts, and soon to be decided rears (maybe another pair of 50's) Subwoofer will soon follow.

Im planning on starting off with 5.1, so would it be beneficial to bi-amp my setup since im planning on starting off at 5.1 anyways?

So i would end up setting my Onkyo in Bi-Amp mode, and running speaker wire from my surround speakers outputs into my front inputs(Monitor 50's)? Is that correct?

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by PS3+HDDVD OWNER

So i would end up setting my Onkyo in Bi-Amp mode, and running speaker wire from my surround speakers outputs into my front inputs(Monitor 50's)? Is that correct?

From the "rear surround" outputs.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by PS3+HDDVD OWNER

So i would end up setting my Onkyo in Bi-Amp mode, and running speaker wire from my surround speakers outputs into my front inputs(Monitor 50's)? Is that correct?

That is MOSTLY correct. You may want to check your speaker literature and make sure which set of binding posts goes to the tweeters and which to the woofers. When you bi-amp from your Onkyo.... the front speaker outs will be to power the lows on your speakers...... and the rear speaker outs will be to power the highs on your speakers. Again..... check the literature on the Onkyo as well to make sure my memory is correct.

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by Slec

When I bi-amped my fronts, the wife commented that it sounded different (better) and I did it while she wasn't home... no placebo effect there

Had the same response from my wife. I only let her know that I was upgrading my gear, but never told her what or why I just told her the cost as would all good husbands do . To this day she still doesn't notice that I have 2 identical amplifiers in the rack in addition to the pre-pro. She just commented out of the blue after I added the amps that it sounded better.

Only drawback is, the other day I was auditioning some Martin Logans which is on my Spring upgrade list. She took one look at the price and said the current setup sounds better . Whatever, I'm planning on buying them anyway.

[PS3+HDDVD OWNER]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

That is MOSTLY correct. You may want to check your speaker literature and make sure which set of binding posts goes to the tweeters and which to the woofers. When you bi-amp from your Onkyo.... the front speaker outs will be to power the lows on your speakers...... and the rear speaker outs will be to power the highs on your speakers. Again..... check the literature on the Onkyo as well to make sure my memory is correct.

I'll need to read up on this before i go ahead and actually give it a go. I understand what you're saying, but im going to need to look at a wiring diagram to see exactly what you mean.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

That is MOSTLY correct. You may want to check your speaker literature and make sure which set of binding posts goes to the tweeters and which to the woofers. When you bi-amp from your Onkyo.... the front speaker outs will be to power the lows on your speakers...... and the rear speaker outs will be to power the highs on your speakers. Again..... check the literature on the Onkyo as well to make sure my memory is correct.

You're backwards on the lows and highs for the Onkyo, unless they changed it from the 605.