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Old 04-08-2021, 01:08 AM   #21
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
Itís already been confirmed that Netflix will be doing the same with their 4K streams. They said it themselves several months ago.
If you mean reducing the bit rate by using a more advanced codec, sure. But again, bit rates only matter if the codec is identical. Netflix uses VBR codecs which vary the rates depending on screen content. Plus they're on the forefront of AV1 which keeps the same quality while reducing the bit rates as well. As long as distribution of digital has to rely on some areas with reduced speeds and technology (DSL) then companies in order to make their wares available to the most number of people will have to tweak codecs from time to time.
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:33 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by tjritter79 View Post
If you mean reducing the bit rate by using a more advanced codec, sure. But again, bit rates only matter if the codec is identical. Netflix uses VBR codecs which vary the rates depending on screen content. Plus they're on the forefront of AV1 which keeps the same quality while reducing the bit rates as well. As long as distribution of digital has to rely on some areas with reduced speeds and technology (DSL) then companies in order to make their wares available to the most number of people will have to tweak codecs from time to time.
People are noticing a difference now though, thatís the point. You can talk about the tech side of it all you want but itís the end result that is important.

Iím sorry, but thatís just an excuse for Netflix to reduce their bit-rate imo. People have been able to get solid HD with a broadband speed of just 3Mbps for a long time. People who want the better quality 4K have to pay for it, itís not fair they should be hamstrung because People have turtle speeds. If they are going to compromise the 4K quality, knock the price down imo.
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Old 04-08-2021, 11:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
Hey. I do have a 4K sub, but my TV is currently only 1080p. Netflix used to look much better, that is my issue. As I stated above, I know I'm not about to get blu-ray image quality, that's a given. I do have a blu-ray player and enjoy it whenever I have the opportunity.
I'm ranting on Netflix. I used to enjoy HD movies with video bitrates ranging from 4 mbps to 9 mbps. But since a few years ago they started experimenting with new codecs, streaming tech and whatnot which made the bitrate tank, and the PQ quality is noticeable worse. Same movies, but now you get video artifacts (don't know the correct term, sorry) all over the place. And I have PrimeVideo, Disney Plus, etc, to prove that Netflix is the problem, not my expectations.
So I suppose your advice still holds true. Maybe Netflix is only good for 4K material nowadays.
P.S.: they also have this annoying per-device "optimization". I get 4.7 mbps when watching RUN on the Edge Browser. And my LG TV only gets 1.75 mbps. Utter and complete BS.
So far no one's mentioned it - but I know in Europe anyways when Covid hit, streaming companies were ordered by Governments to lower their quality to reduce the strain on network infrastructure.

Related?
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:10 PM   #24
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
People are noticing a difference now though, thatís the point. You can talk about the tech side of it all you want but itís the end result that is important.

Iím sorry, but thatís just an excuse for Netflix to reduce their bit-rate imo. People have been able to get solid HD with a broadband speed of just 3Mbps for a long time. People who want the better quality 4K have to pay for it, itís not fair they should be hamstrung because People have turtle speeds. If they are going to compromise the 4K quality, knock the price down imo.
You're observations are such that all things are EQUAL! That is NOT the case. First of all, the lower bit rates being reported are NOT the 4K streams, it's the ones using SD or HD streams. Second, with 4K the inconsistencies and possible interference from OTHER sources besides Netflix are amplified. Third, the negative press which concentrates on "lower bit rates" narrative without considering variable bit rate codecs or improved codec performance quality while lowering bit rates. And finally, the combination gets "inside the head" of those who post on non-technical forums (like reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc...) and they post illogical conclusions based on their occasional experiences. Then "stories" like you are communicating trickle down to people like yourself who unapologetically translate them to "facts" simply because it supports your narrative of the "lesser quality of digital" when TECHNICAL people who engineer and develop this technology for a living, have COUNTLESS measurements and data that shows this is NOT the case!

I'm NOT doubting for a second that you or other users are observing "problems" with your experience of Netflix, but those "problems" despite your continued fruitless efforts are NOT caused by Netflix or their reduced bit rates using codecs....or these issues would be at 100% and then likely addressed and dealt with. The mere fact that these "problems" are sporadic, random and occasional are PROOF it's NOT Netflix's fault.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:16 PM   #25
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pondosinatra View Post
So far no one's mentioned it - but I know in Europe anyways when Covid hit, streaming companies were ordered by Governments to lower their quality to reduce the strain on network infrastructure.

Related?
They did here in the states as well, especially when the schools were closed down and all students had to finish the 2020 school year online. But once summer hit, at least in the states those restrictions went away. Most schools here went to "hybrid" learning (2 days in-school/3 days online) with some variance due to Covid outbreaks within schools.

One of the reasons WHY Comcast unsuccessfully tried to implement data caps in the Northeast section of the country. The states AG's wouldn't have it.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:41 PM   #26
SANAFABICH SANAFABICH is offline
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Originally Posted by Pondosinatra View Post
So far no one's mentioned it - but I know in Europe anyways when Covid hit, streaming companies were ordered by Governments to lower their quality to reduce the strain on network infrastructure.

Related?
Yep, they did but good luck getting them to acknowledge it! I've asked several times but all they say is "Not that we are aware of, so it must be your internet connection!"
But that still doesn't explain why we get different qualities on different devices. I hate that, it's a unilateral decision and they never explain the reason behind it.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
But that still doesn't explain why we get different qualities on different devices.
Perhaps it's not a bitrate issue but a network one? Do your varied devices have different download speeds? If so that's a potential bottleneck on each device.

Also, if you have devices of different speeds running on the same wireless network (for example, two N devices and one G) download speeds can often perform at the speed of the slowest device (so everyone would get G performance).

Last edited by AreaFive; 04-08-2021 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:15 PM   #28
SANAFABICH SANAFABICH is offline
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Perhaps it's not a bitrate issue but a network one? Do your varied devices have different download speeds? If so that's a potential bottleneck on each device.
You're starting to sound like them lol.
No, it's not a network issue. All devices are using either the 5ghz band or ethernet, and they all have above 100mbps speeds when tested. Plus, Netflix does have some titles streaming at above 6mbps bitrates. So again, it is not a network issue.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjritter79 View Post
You're observations are such that all things are EQUAL! That is NOT the case. First of all, the lower bit rates being reported are NOT the 4K streams, it's the ones using SD or HD streams. Second, with 4K the inconsistencies and possible interference from OTHER sources besides Netflix are amplified. Third, the negative press which concentrates on "lower bit rates" narrative without considering variable bit rate codecs or improved codec performance quality while lowering bit rates. And finally, the combination gets "inside the head" of those who post on non-technical forums (like reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc...) and they post illogical conclusions based on their occasional experiences. Then "stories" like you are communicating trickle down to people like yourself who unapologetically translate them to "facts" simply because it supports your narrative of the "lesser quality of digital" when TECHNICAL people who engineer and develop this technology for a living, have COUNTLESS measurements and data that shows this is NOT the case!

I'm NOT doubting for a second that you or other users are observing "problems" with your experience of Netflix, but those "problems" despite your continued fruitless efforts are NOT caused by Netflix or their reduced bit rates using codecs....or these issues would be at 100% and then likely addressed and dealt with. The mere fact that these "problems" are sporadic, random and occasional are PROOF it's NOT Netflix's fault.
Of course it isn’t Netflix’s fault that they have reduced bit rates and people are starting to notice a poorer quality of picture. No sir, not guilty.

There have already been examples of earlier 4K streams having the new encodes. That’s what started all this discussion off.

I fully expect more complaints as this problem becomes more widespread. No matter how much denial goes on by you or others.

This is NEVER going to be a widespread problem because most don’t give a crap about quality. It’s only a minority who do care. In my opinion, this has everything to do with cost cutting and NOTHING to do with preservation of quality (well, better quality anyway).
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:40 PM   #30
Steedeel Steedeel is offline
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Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
Yep, they did but good luck getting them to acknowledge it! I've asked several times but all they say is "Not that we are aware of, so it must be your internet connection!"
But that still doesn't explain why we get different qualities on different devices. I hate that, it's a unilateral decision and they never explain the reason behind it.
It was inevitable when they first did this for the pandemic that it would continue beyond that. It was the perfect opportunity to test the waters to see what they could get away with imo.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:47 PM   #31
Steedeel Steedeel is offline
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Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
Hey. I do have a 4K sub, but my TV is currently only 1080p. Netflix used to look much better, that is my issue. As I stated above, I know I'm not about to get blu-ray image quality, that's a given. I do have a blu-ray player and enjoy it whenever I have the opportunity.
I'm ranting on Netflix. I used to enjoy HD movies with video bitrates ranging from 4 mbps to 9 mbps. But since a few years ago they started experimenting with new codecs, streaming tech and whatnot which made the bitrate tank, and the PQ quality is noticeable worse. Same movies, but now you get video artifacts (don't know the correct term, sorry) all over the place. And I have PrimeVideo, Disney Plus, etc, to prove that Netflix is the problem, not my expectations.
So I suppose your advice still holds true. Maybe Netflix is only good for 4K material nowadays.
P.S.: they also have this annoying per-device "optimization". I get 4.7 mbps when watching RUN on the Edge Browser. And my LG TV only gets 1.75 mbps. Utter and complete BS.
The video artefacts you mention are pixelation and banding, these are most visible in darker scenes with the lower bit rates. It also affects movement and can give backgrounds a ugly, messy look when the camera pans. Mist, rain and smoke can also cause chaos in such circumstances.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:48 PM   #32
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You're starting to sound like them lol.
It wasn't intentional, I was trying to be helpful by ruling out a potential issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
No, it's not a network issue. All devices are using either the 5ghz band or ethernet, and they all have above 100mbps speeds when tested.
5ghz and ethernet should be capable of handling streaming video without issue. You should be getting quite a bit more than 100 mbps though, depending on your plan.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:38 PM   #33
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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..... In my opinion, this has everything to do with cost cutting and NOTHING to do with preservation of quality (well, better quality anyway).
This of course is the WHOLE issue. It's NOT fact, it's simply YOUR opinion.
How many times have we had this same/similar discussion?
And EVERY one of those times you've been provided time and again with EVIDENCE?
Pro videos by Vincent Teoh...
Engineering charts showing IMPROVED quality with lower bitrates due to NEW codecs....
The bit rate charts supplied and available to all via lgans.....

Again, it doesn't bother me that you're against digital. That's simply a personal choice. But for God sakes man, when you're presented with charts, comparisons, videos, etc......at the very LEAST acknowledge the professional work done and understand that what YOU believe is fact, has been disproven multiple times by multiple people.

No one says YOU have to like digital, but you're misrepresenting your position by trying desperately to pass off your opinion as fact...and doing that WITHOUT providing ANY data or substance that proves your point.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:42 PM   #34
Steedeel Steedeel is offline
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Originally Posted by tjritter79 View Post
This of course is the WHOLE issue. It's NOT fact, it's simply YOUR opinion.
How many times have we had this same/similar discussion?
And EVERY one of those times you've been provided time and again with EVIDENCE?
Pro videos by Vincent Teoh...
Engineering charts showing IMPROVED quality with lower bitrates due to NEW codecs....
The bit rate charts supplied and available to all via lgans.....

Again, it doesn't bother me that you're against digital. That's simply a personal choice. But for God sakes man, when you're presented with charts, comparisons, videos, etc......at the very LEAST acknowledge the professional work done and understand that what YOU believe is fact, has been disproven multiple times by multiple people.

No one says YOU have to like digital, but you're misrepresenting your position by trying desperately to pass off your opinion as fact...and doing that WITHOUT providing ANY data or substance that proves your point.
I don’t need evidence, the evidence is already there! It’s noted by the very people who use these streaming services on a regular basis.
Also, how does a bunch of tech diagrams prove ANYTHING?

It’s the punters who decide and they have decided that they are noticing far more compression artefacts. That’s across SD, HD AND 4K! Unless you are claiming these people don’t have the ability to pick out irritating artefacts? Listen to YOUR people, the digital crowd.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:57 PM   #35
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Originally Posted by SANAFABICH View Post
You're starting to sound like them lol.
No, it's not a network issue. All devices are using either the 5ghz band or ethernet, and they all have above 100mbps speeds when tested. Plus, Netflix does have some titles streaming at above 6mbps bitrates. So again, it is not a network issue.
If you're getting fluctuations within the Netflix service, of course its a "network issue". Maybe not YOUR internal network but your internet provider.
Granted that Netflix uses variable bit rate codecs...but these all should measure within the same ranges. The 1080 measure about the same, the 4K measure about the same, etc. That would also account for why some "sources" look better than others.

Lets also be clear on what each providers responsibilities are. Back in the "cable" TV days, the cable company was "responsible" for that signal from origin to inside your home. DBS satellite had the same responsibility. They each HAD to make sure YOU were getting their program properly. In the case of DBS, if there were obstructions or trees hindering reception, the DBS company would find another location for the dish or cancel service if one could not be found.

Streaming services don't have that SAME responsibility. Theirs ends with the service successfully streamed on the internet. Even the apps aren't developed "in-house" those are done and maintained by third parties. The "path" of the signal from origin to your home is maintained by another service (in a lot of cases its not even your ISP). Each service may "contract" with different server farms and each provider potentially has a "different path" into your home.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:05 PM   #36
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
I donít need evidence, the evidence is already there! Itís noted by the very people who use these streaming services on a regular basis.
Also, how does a bunch of tech diagrams prove ANYTHING?
Well, for one. It proves the argument that quality improves with same bit rates....or that quality stays the same with lower bit rates....which is the whole point of switching codecs. Engineers/technicians have to provide this data to these companies BEFORE any changes are even implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
Itís the punters who decide and they have decided that they are noticing far more compression artefacts. Thatís across SD, HD AND 4K! Unless you are claiming these people donít have the ability to pick out irritating artefacts? Listen to YOUR people, the digital crowd.
Again, I'm NOT doubting those findings....but you're making a blanket accusation on a single provider....and use SOME common sense! If indeed it were ONLY Netflix with this problem, wouldn't it occur with EVERY Netflix access, regardless of title or resolution? Bit rates for EVERYTHING would ALWAYS be low.....not occasionally, not randomly, not sporadically....but 100% OF THE TIME!
Is that the case? Of course not.
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