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Old 02-03-2021, 01:26 AM   #41
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Originally Posted by oneway23 View Post
Have you tried streaming that same movie in iTunes?
Ghostbusters 1984? The 1080p BD (most recent 30th Anniversary Edition with 4k transfer) easily smokes the iTunes versions (also mastered in 4k) no questions asked. Why I say this? Well, a 1080p BD can range from having 25gbs to 50gbs discs with such space being used for supplements whatnot. BD utilizes codecs like H264 where video bitrate can reach up to 48mbs, and audio codecs like DTS-MA and PCM can go up to 15mbs 192khz.

iTunes 1080p downloads are 2-5gbs in size and run at DVD-like bitrates of 2-6mbs with an H264 codec. Audio on these are variable bitrate AAC (44.1khz) for 2.0 tracks and DD 448kbs for up to 5.1 (48khz). iTunes streaming through an AppleTV 4th gen device however, has 1080p video utilize H265 up to 17mbs and audio formats such as Dolby True-HD up to Dolby Atmos.

In the case of Ghostbusters '84, iTunes streaming still pales in comparison to the BD. Because this movie is also very grainy, the BD does a near flawless job of preserving the grain structure and looks fantastic from a 4k remastered source! The iTunes download looks like absolute dogshit with macroblocking all over the place! The iTunes streaming version looks better but still has macroblocking, most prominent in fast, flashing action sequences and dark areas. The iTunes 1080p stream can get you HDR or DV (as the 4k source master already has it) depending on your screen setup.

Audio will be identical as they're all from the same source. The 448kbs 5.1 on the download sounds the same as the older DVD, and the Tru-HD 5.1 on the 1080p stream is exactly the same as the track on the old BD and the MI4K one. The BD's DTS-MA 5.1 would be the obvious winner here. However, depending on your audio setup, iTunes 1080p streaming can get you the Dolby Atmos track (which is only on the 4k/UHD disc and not on the 1080p BD).

Last edited by SpaceBlackKnight; 02-03-2021 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 02-03-2021, 01:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
Ghostbusters 1984? The 1080p BD (most recent 30th Anniversary Edition with 4k transfer)
Thank you for the highly-detailed response, but, I was talking about the 4k version on iTunes, and not 1080p. I may be really confused but, you seem to be comparing the UHD disc to an iTunes 1080p download? Maybe I'm mistaken. Is the 4k streaming version actually only 1080p?
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post
Iím 100% digital. Will never criticize the physical 4K disc collectors, without them the days of $5 digital codes would disappear.

In regards to quality, Iím streaming to a 120 inch screen. Any noticeable differences in image quality is significantly smaller now compared to even a year or two ago and certainly not enough of a difference for me to continue to pay $25 per disc vs $5 digital considering the high volume of titles I buy (400+ since March).

Biggest difference is with Dolby Atmos tracks and even with those, the streaming Atmos still sounds great. But unlike the image quality video, the audio quality differences are noticeable to some degree.
Yes we should live with each other in harmony as we both help each other out in the end with cost - but that isn't always the case when in comes to diehards on either side of the topic. I switched over a few years back, something I never thought I'd ever do tbh. I was physical all the way and digital copies were just there for laptops and portable devices. A nice little bonus if you will.

Streaming then got a lot better and I really like the cost savings with digital and the space saving as well. And of coarse the big one is convenience. I can give up a little PQ/AQ for those things. Especially considering I don't really buy top of the line gear anymore.

In fact that addiction often crippled me from enjoying the content. Always, ALWAYS tweaking things - looking for "bugs".

I could have perfect picture and sound, the "normal" people said I already did, BUT - it still wasn't good enough. SO, I had some therapy and became "normal" myself.
A little bit anyway, I mean nobody pays to own this stuff anymore in my reality - it's all streaming streaming streaming annnd some piracy as well.
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:14 AM   #44
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Originally Posted by oneway23 View Post
Thank you for the highly-detailed response, but, I was talking about the 4k version on iTunes, and not 1080p. I may be really confused but, you seem to be comparing the UHD disc to an iTunes 1080p download? Maybe I'm mistaken. Is the 4k streaming version actually only 1080p?
My first post was comparing the 4k UHD disc and 4k iTunes stream. Then I did the 1080p BD vs 1080p iTunes download/stream. I though it was comparing same resolutions with disc and digital, but the threads title is extremely confusing TBH.

Itunes 4k HDR VS 1080p BD of Ghostbusters 84: The 4k HDR stream will have an H265 codec, higher resolution, and greater dynamic range compared to the H264, 1080p SDR BD. However, 4k HDR streaming (despite utilizing the more efficient H265 codec) runs at 24-35mbs video bitrate, which about equal to the H264 1080p BD, but far lower than the UHD disc that hovers at 60-104mbs bitrate.

GB 84 has lots of grain, so the 4k native HDR stream with it's low bitrates will not handle the grain structure very well. This is because when an H265 codec is configured for operating at low bitrates, it does some sort of softening and blending of complex textures to make the image look clean and not as noisy/blocky, all while maintaining small data limitations.

The 1080p BD runs slightly higher bitrates in H264 (27-46mbs) compared to the 4k HDR stream. Despite only being SDR with lower overall resolution, the 1080p BD wins in terms of overall compression due to the higher bitrates and better optimization for maintaining grain/sharpness.
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
My first post was comparing the 4k UHD disc and 4k iTunes stream. Then I did the 1080p BD vs 1080p iTunes download/stream. I though it was comparing same resolutions with disc and digital, but the threads title is extremely confusing TBH..
I greatly appreciate the time you took to answer that question, thank you
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:45 AM   #46
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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All of this are possible just like disc rot or players stopping working or even the lack of UHD players in the market.
Physical and streaming both have pluses and cons, despite noticeable AV quality differences for those who notice such things. Some titles aren't on streaming and some aren't on BD. There's been cases of titles where the masters used for streaming versions are newer and better looking (The Sandlot for example) or completely different (Porky's 1981 uses a different HD master compared to the 4k sourced master on the Fox BD) to whats on Blu.

As to ownership and titles possibly being "changed out" or "removed or taken away", it depends on the region, provider, and/or rights holder. The widespread story where that one guy lost a good chunk of his digital library was due to the fact he moved and changed his account region from Australia to Canada. The distributors to some movies are different in some regions and won't transfer over to one country from another. This article explains it in greater detail than I can comprehend https://www.cnet.com/news/no-apple-d...ally-happened/

Titles that are no longer for sale due to rights holders changing (Star Wars: The Clone Wars 2008 from Warner Bros to Disney/Lucasfilm being one popular example) or distributors shutting down (First Look/Milennium Entertainment and The Weinstien Company for example) won't necessarily disappear from your library if you purchased them to own. However, active rentals will be completely removed depending on when the time of the rights change occurred. This happened once when I rented Bernie on iTunes and completely vanished a few hours later due to Millennium completely folding and their titles getting completely wiped from iTunes.

There are also cases of major/studio titles that had entirely new listings created and older ones deleted (Aladdin is an example of this). In most cases, your library will keep the old version if you own it outright. Sometimes, they keep the listing but make changes including swapping out the master with a 4k one, which will be reflected on your account.
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Old 02-03-2021, 04:06 AM   #47
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What is hard to believe? What I said is just that you don't know if you can really tell a difference if you haven't done a proper double blind test. With some effort you can set one up yourself with a friend. It's not that hard (only the level-matching is a bit tricky), but very few people do it.

The results of professional listening tests are used for technical development (e.g. the max bitrates of codecs like AC3 were chosen after listening tests) and to derive best practices for codec selection and configuration in different scenarios.
Thought you were implying that compressed vs lossless doesnít make a difference movies-wise either but I guess you werenít.

Itíd definitely be interesting to make that test. Might do it myself with a friend like you suggested sometime soon.
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Old 02-03-2021, 08:22 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post
Why not buy the physical for back ups?

I bought 400 digital 4K movies at about $5 each ($2000 total) since March 2020.

400 physical 4K blu-rays at $15 to $25 each just to have back ups?

Streaming 4K HDR and Atmos from iTunes and MoviesAnywhere looks and sounds fantastic on my set up. VUDU not so much. Can it look better with physical? Sure... but that marginal difference with video and slightly larger difference with audio isn’t worth it for me to continue buying physical media. I think I already stated that in my original post that you quoted.

For a lot of others... that difference is enough to warrant supporting physical and I have no problems with that. Without them, I wouldn’t be able to get those new release 4K digital codes so cheaply. It’s a symbiotic relationship and I totally respect that.

I have repeated several times that both formats will co-exist and they complement each other (digital relying on physical as most of us are after that shiny piece of paper lol).

I own 1000+ discs (600+ UHDs and at least 400+ BDs). I have spent enough time comparing to digital (iTunes/MA) as I had to make up my mind to switch to digital due to family pressure and lack of shelf space. I will stand by comments that the gap between 4K physical V digital is way too less than HD physical. Audio can be a hit or miss on digital but remember we all raved the 384 Kbps DD audio on DVDs and some of them still sound great.

In the last 6 months, I have managed to buy 1100 films on digital (MA/iTunes) averaging at well under $5 per film. Now, if I look at how much I have spent on physical, its simply eye watering.

The cost difference, form factor and most importantly convenience is why digital made sense to me. Having said that, I did purchase Tremors and Pitch Black recently on physical as they are not available on digital.
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Old 02-03-2021, 09:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by bladerunner1 View Post
Yes we should live with each other in harmony as we both help each other out in the end with cost - but that isn't always the case when in comes to diehards on either side of the topic. I switched over a few years back, something I never thought I'd ever do tbh. I was physical all the way and digital copies were just there for laptops and portable devices. A nice little bonus if you will.

Streaming then got a lot better and I really like the cost savings with digital and the space saving as well. And of coarse the big one is convenience. I can give up a little PQ/AQ for those things. Especially considering I don't really buy top of the line gear anymore.

In fact that addiction often crippled me from enjoying the content. Always, ALWAYS tweaking things - looking for "bugs".

I could have perfect picture and sound, the "normal" people said I already did, BUT - it still wasn't good enough. SO, I had some therapy and became "normal" myself.
A little bit anyway, I mean nobody pays to own this stuff anymore in my reality - it's all streaming streaming streaming annnd some piracy as well.
To me and a great many others, it’s all about replicating the cinema experience at home as much as possible. To do that, disc is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. We all know it, regardless of how much justification goes on by some. If you are digital, you are the mainstream with the tv hanging above the fireplace with a sound bar at best. It’s not HT. if you do have a surround setup, you are not getting the most from your purchase.
UHD is getting closer to that cinema at home I mentioned. I’m afraid digital will never get there. The pressure will be on to lower storage costs and bandwidth costs over the next decade. We are seeing all ready with Netflix. Amazon tried it but AFAIK it was so low that customers noticed so they had to tweak. A sign of things to come. Once you own a disc, it’s locked in also. No censoring, no potential loss in the future, etc..

Disc for the win every single time.
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Old 02-03-2021, 12:34 PM   #50
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To me and a great many others, itís all about replicating the cinema experience at home as much as possible. To do that, disc is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. We all know it, regardless of how much justification goes on by some.
To me and a great many others, itís all about replicating the cinema experience at home as much as possible. To do that, [a JVC NX9 with 300 inch screen and 11.2.4 Atmos] is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. We all know it, regardless of how much justification goes on by some.
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
To me and a great many others, itís all about replicating the cinema experience at home as much as possible. To do that, disc is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. We all know it, regardless of how much justification goes on by some. If you are digital, you are the mainstream with the tv hanging above the fireplace with a sound bar at best. Itís not HT.
To replicate the cinema experience at home as much as possible, a projector with a large screen is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. If you are using a puny TV, you are the mainstream. It's not HT.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:21 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
To replicate the cinema experience at home as much as possible, a projector with a large screen is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. If you are using a puny TV, you are the mainstream. It's not HT.
Never said it was?
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:22 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post
To me and a great many others, itís all about replicating the cinema experience at home as much as possible. To do that, [a JVC NX9 with 300 inch screen and 11.2.4 Atmos] is required. Anything else is simply settling for second best. We all know it, regardless of how much justification goes on by some.
Agreed. You have the set up and the discs, just let yourself down with the digital stuff there.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:35 PM   #54
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Agreed. You have the set up and the discs, just let yourself down with the digital stuff there.
So what set up are you currently using?
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:39 PM   #55
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With digital you are watching Apple's copy of the movie under your login.
It is NOT your copy to own. The terms are very clear about this.
This just doesn't sit right with me
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:45 PM   #56
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The fact is that tv and projector prices are coming coming down while their picture quality is going up (same with sound systems). So IMO, getting discs helps to future proof with that as well given the bigger the screen size, and better picture quality, the more easy it is to notice compression artifacts on the picture, which streaming definitely has more of the great majority of the time.

Now you can get a pretty darn good 65Ē 4K TV with great HDR and color volume for less than $950 (and a 75Ē of the same for less than $1400). You can even get a pretty decent 65Ē 4K/HDR TV for less than $600.

Five years ago that was definitely not the case.

When the first 77Ē OLED came out (just a few years ago), it was well over $10,000. Last year you could get one for less than $3,300.

You can also get a sound bar that does lossless 5.1.4 for less than $950 as well.

So in a few years, most people will likely be able to afford 85Ē 4K/HDR TVs of good quality and a 7.1.4 system for pretty low prices. Thatís pretty darn near close to the quality of cinema given the usual seating arrangements, number of people, and seating distances (and not just any cinema, mind you, but a Dolby Cinema since most regular cinema screens canít do expanded dynamic range nor 3D audio).

So no, you donít need a JVC NX9 and 16+ speaker system and spend many thousands of dollars to get theater-like quality anymore. All the more reason why better compression and better audio are important. While those uber-expensive setups are definitely nicer, you donít need to spend that much to get theater-like quality anymore. Seating with an audience and enjoying a film together is a whole other thing, but technical quality-wise, home equipment that matches, or even surpasses, theater quality is relatively cheap now, and will become even cheaper in a few years.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cpr3584 View Post
With digital you are watching Apple's copy of the movie under your login.
It is NOT your copy to own. The terms are very clear about this.
This just doesn't sit right with me
this is how all digital content works. Everyone can do what they like, but these "if they go out of business its all gone!" scenarios people love to use are overblown. Going on a decade with the same libraries, never a single title lost.

I will never understand these debates. Discs are great, digital is great. Use whatever works best for you.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:54 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post

So no, you donít need a JVC NX9 and 16+ speaker system and spend many thousands of dollars to get theater-like quality anymore. All the more reason why better compression and better audio are important. While those uber-expensive setups are definitely nicer, you donít need to spend that much to get theater-like quality anymore. Seating with an audience and enjoying a film together is a whole other thing, but technical quality-wise, home equipment that matches, or even surpasses, theater quality is relatively cheap now, and will become even cheaper in a few years.
LOL... my NX9 and 11.2.4 comment flew right over your head.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:56 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post
LOL... my NX9 and 11.2.4 comment flew right over your head.
Maybe I wasnít referring to just your comment .
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Old 02-03-2021, 04:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kannibaliztik View Post
this is how all digital content works. Everyone can do what they like, but these "if they go out of business its all gone!" scenarios people love to use are overblown. Going on a decade with the same libraries, never a single title lost.

I will never understand these debates. Discs are great, digital is great. Use whatever works best for you.
Yea I know that no content has been removed ( and I think this is a good thing for digital folks) ...but their terms should give more ownership or even let people download their own full copies with a simple code to put in before playback or something to limit piracy. But the studios want you watching their copy and they want to reserve the right to pull or edit content at a whim. Just doesnt sit right with me, but I understand the other side of the coin.
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