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Old 03-02-2021, 12:23 AM   #21
The Fallen Deity The Fallen Deity is offline
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Ah right. For some reason, I was under the impression that it's always been there theatrically.

You learn something new everyday.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity View Post
Wait... So if I'm reading this right..

Analog film has always had the range, but they could never display it properly before digital projectors became a thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range

I think again you are confusing HDR with resolution.

Analog film or 35mm film if you will was NEVER HDR. HDR didn't even exist for the first 100+ years of film history. HDR is a digital technology term. For home theater purposes it was developed to enhance the viewing of 4K content before it was applied to HD content and devices.
NOTHING filmed in analog contains HDR. But when that same analog film is remastered digitally and shown on devices that utilize HDR technology, HDR can be added to enhance the viewing experience.

Analog 35mm film contains the SAME resolution as 4K, but NOBODY cared if analog films created before 2010 were 4K or not. Simply because the technology to view content in 4K didn't exist. You watched a movie in the theater with all the colors, clarity and sound....no one asked "Is this in 4K?"

Once movies began to be filmed digitally in 2010, did native 4K and HDR become a "thing". And that was because the movement to HD was already under way, and 4K home theater technology was on the precipice of being introduced.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:10 AM   #23
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
It's mostly a function of luminance. HDR-capable TVs can usually output 500 nits or higher. In comparison, the DCI standard for traditional cinema calls for 48 (!) nits. Even Dolby Cinema uses only 108 nits. Standards for theatrical HDR are still evolving.
What Fiffy said.....
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Old 03-02-2021, 09:07 PM   #24
The Fallen Deity The Fallen Deity is offline
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Thanks for the info guys. It looks like I did get stuff mixed up.

And here was me thinking that I knew what I was talking about.
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Old 03-02-2021, 11:36 PM   #25
tjritter79 tjritter79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity View Post
Thanks for the info guys. It looks like I did get stuff mixed up.

And here was me thinking that I knew what I was talking about.
Well, you don't LEARN until you ask the right questions. And really that's what these forums are all about. Learning something new you haven't yet experienced. I've been involved in some facet of the industry for over 40 years. I started out doing car stereos, installing TV and quad-systems in the 70's, ran a cable company in the 80's, installed satellite dishes residentially and commercially in the late 80's and 90's. Went back to school when DirecTV killed the big dish industry, got my degree and ended up employed by Dell, Xerox, Gateway, Cisco before I ended up with a 12-yr career at IBM...retired 10 mos ago....and I'm STILL learning today!
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Old 03-03-2021, 12:41 PM   #26
meremortal meremortal is online now
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Are the 4k streams for Big, Mrs. Doubtfire and The Sandlot new scans and noticeable pq improvement over the blu? Think all are non-hdr.
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Old 03-03-2021, 12:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meremortal View Post
Are the 4k streams for Big, Mrs. Doubtfire and The Sandlot new scans and noticeable pq improvement over the blu? Think all are non-hdr.
No idea about new scans but correct on no HDR, but they all still look better than ever before.
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Old 03-03-2021, 06:19 PM   #28
x5gb x5gb is offline
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Does anyone know if Commando, The Color of Money and Con Air have been updated to these new masters on preferable Amazon or if not iTunes.
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Old 03-04-2021, 02:39 AM   #29
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x5gb View Post
Does anyone know if Commando, The Color of Money and Con Air have been updated to these new masters on preferable Amazon or if not iTunes.
Amazon may have recently updated the theatrical cut of Commando, as they've been recently updating and adding 4k options for several Fox titles (all the Die Hard movies included). But I know for sure iTunes has the TC of Commando with the new 4k master (HD only). The Color of Money on Amazon seems to be an older (HDTV era?) master with grain and not the one used on the Blu. Con Air seems to be the same transfer on all providers.
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Old 03-04-2021, 07:55 PM   #30
x5gb x5gb is offline
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Thanks SpaceBlackKnight, shame there isn't a way of checking the Amazon one before you buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
Amazon may have recently updated the theatrical cut of Commando, as they've been recently updating and adding 4k options for several Fox titles (all the Die Hard movies included). But I know for sure iTunes has the TC of Commando with the new 4k master (HD only). The Color of Money on Amazon seems to be an older (HDTV era?) master with grain and not the one used on the Blu. Con Air seems to be the same transfer on all providers.
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Old 03-04-2021, 08:02 PM   #31
Fiffy Fiffy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
But I know for sure iTunes has the TC of Commando with the new 4k master (HD only).
Is the existence of this master confirmed somewhere? A usually knowledgeable forum member said that there is no 4K master a few months ago.
Quote:
The Color of Money on Amazon seems to be an older (HDTV era?) master with grain and not the one used on the Blu.
Grain can sometimes be an indicator for a newer master (older HDTV masters usually used heavy noise filtering).
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Old 03-04-2021, 08:35 PM   #32
x5gb x5gb is offline
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I put a 720p sceenshot up of the new master from Disney+ on the Commando bluray thread.
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Old 03-04-2021, 08:50 PM   #33
Fiffy Fiffy is offline
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The streaming versions could well be a new encode of the old master. I don't have the BD myself, but according to blu-ray.com it uses an MPEG-2 encode that is over 10 years old, so it wouldn't surprise me if it looked crappy. I have a hard time believing that this movie would be prioritized for a 4K restoration, but then pigs occasionally do fly.
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Old 03-04-2021, 08:55 PM   #34
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
Is the existence of this master confirmed somewhere? A usually knowledgeable forum member said that there is no 4K master a few months ago.
I rented the theatrical cut of Commando on iTunes in September 2019 and can confirm it is definitely based on a new 4k master (even though iTunes was still HD viewing only). The directors cut is still based on the old HD master used on the BDs.
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Old 03-04-2021, 08:56 PM   #35
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
Grain can sometimes be an indicator for a newer master (older HDTV masters usually used heavy noise filtering).
The main indicator of spotting a new master would be lack of EE and a cleaner picture all around. Amazon's print of The Color of Money was a bit dirty looking and had EE, a talltaie sign of it being an older HD master.
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Old 03-04-2021, 09:04 PM   #36
Fiffy Fiffy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
I rented the theatrical cut of Commando on iTunes in September 2019 and can confirm it is definitely based on a new 4k master (even though iTunes was still HD viewing only).
Hm, but how do you know it's a 4K master?
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Old 03-04-2021, 09:09 PM   #37
Fiffy Fiffy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
The main indicator of spotting a new master would be lack of EE and a cleaner picture all around. Amazon's print of The Color of Money was a bit dirty looking and had EE, a talltaie sign of it being an older HD master.
What they often did in the old days is first filter the image to hell, and then apply edge enhancement in an attempt to counter the resulting softness. In any case these old masters usually completely destroyed the natural grain "texture".
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Old 03-04-2021, 09:14 PM   #38
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
Hm, but how do you know it's a 4K master?
The scan looked very clean (and grainy, despite the poor iTunes compression) and stable ala Fox's 4k remasters. Here's a few screengrabs from the beginning of the movie to see for your self:

https://i.postimg.cc/NfSPN3DV/vlcsna...h08m53s330.png

https://i.postimg.cc/GprKVdyM/vlcsna...h09m05s936.png

https://i.postimg.cc/435PTqvX/vlcsna...h09m23s047.png
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Old 03-04-2021, 09:16 PM   #39
SpaceBlackKnight SpaceBlackKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiffy View Post
What they often did in the old days is first filter the image to hell, and then apply edge enhancement in an attempt to counter the resulting softness. In any case these old masters usually completely destroyed the natural grain "texture".
That is true, but for some older HD masters of lesser films they just scanned the source as-is and didn't bother to do any cleanup/processing.
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Old 03-04-2021, 09:44 PM   #40
Fiffy Fiffy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight View Post
The scan looked very clean (and grainy, despite the poor iTunes compression) and stable ala Fox's 4k remasters. Here's a few screengrabs from the beginning of the movie to see for your self:

https://i.postimg.cc/NfSPN3DV/vlcsna...h08m53s330.png

https://i.postimg.cc/GprKVdyM/vlcsna...h09m05s936.png

https://i.postimg.cc/435PTqvX/vlcsna...h09m23s047.png
I don't think it's possible to determine from a 1080p image whether the master was 4K or not with any confidence.
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