4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

My guess for the first question is A and C to the second.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sing, zee machines aren’t that magical even if you use an accurate mathematical P3 -> 709 conversion, as you still need to do a trim pass which takes colorist time (~ $7,500/day). Think more involving and time-consuming than ‘A’ for Question #1.

However I commend you both for stepping up to the plate to take your swings though, as that’s a good way to learn something new and remember it.

In other words, when a professional facility takes a DCI P3 master and wants to convert it into Rec 709 for instance for a Blu-ray master, the problem is that there are ‘colors’ of the P3 space which do not fit within 709 (P3 is ~ 1.3x bigger[1.3 to 1, 1 being Rec709]), so one has to squeeze the larger space into the smaller which inevitably changes the color look of the images. There is no *automatic box*, so-to-speak which works well to convert all content so the colorist must make judgements about color quality and the perception of certain colors in order to fit the wider color space material within the narrower color gamut (709) and make the later look as close to the former as possible so there is transparency to filmmaker intent. Of course, with the caveat that the filmmaker wants home audiences to see as accurately as possible what theatrical audiences viewed with his/her motion picture in the first place.

So, anyway, for a feature motion picture (of about 2hr. length), this takes about 2 days of work. Not choice ‘A’ but…..singhcr, you made the closest guess as to the actual time which would be involved (and time = money)….and Sap got it correct in assuming that the process is not simply an automatic flip-of-the-switch conversion.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...I’m thinking that many here would be happy just to hear ‘4k’ uttered once in an official statement by the BDA at CES 2014 in regards to confirming plans to implement (in due course) rather than just 'feasibility study consideration', given what statement from last April that I think Paul.R.S was referring to a couple pages back -

http://www.cnet.com.au/blu-ray-set-t...-339344088.htm

To Paul.R.S and others (vocal contributors as well as unacknowledgeding silent lurkers) so interested….

Reporter: ”Unsurprisingly, on the issue of a 4K Blu-ray standard announcement, the official line is still infuriatingly vague."

John Anderson, Head of Home Entertainment and Sound for Sony Europe: "Well that's a discussion point," teases Anderson. "Will 4K come via physical discs or streaming? There're a lot of discussions going on. I think at CES could prove to be a turning point in that regard..."

See - http://www.insideci.co.uk/articles/s...-ultra-hd.aspx

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

To Paul.R.S and others (vocal contributors as well as unacknowledgeding silent lurkers) so interested….

Reporter: ”Unsurprisingly, on the issue of a 4K Blu-ray standard announcement, the official line is still infuriatingly vague."

John Anderson, Head of Home Entertainment and Sound for Sony Europe: "Well that's a discussion point," teases Anderson. "Will 4K come via physical discs or streaming? There're a lot of discussions going on. I think at CES could prove to be a turning point in that regard..."

See - http://www.insideci.co.uk/articles/s...-ultra-hd.aspx

Don't like the sound of that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Don't like the sound of that.

You mean you feel the day of ‘reckoning’ cometh?....and in Sin City no less!

[img eL]

"Blu-ray disc penetration is still increasing," says John Anderson. "It currently stands at around 26% of UK households, and that's without including PS3. Some people still prefer to own their films on a physical disc, and as regards streaming, we still need a better broadband infrastructure. Plus you can't always get what you want on the streaming services."

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/ifa-201...udio-and-4k-tv

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by vargo

They announced a successful production test. The reality is that they are not 'selling' (present tense) replicators because there is no 100GB ROM disc in the Bluray whitepaper yet.

Nobody buys or sells a replicator for a disc format whose specification hasn't been agreed and published. This was essentially an announcement by Singulus that they had cracked the technical challenge and were ready to go when necessary.

You appear to not have a grasp on things and missing some important facts.

1) You appear (especially in your next posts) to equate ROM with standard movie disk. Yes the two do have a large amount of overlap but they don’t equate.

for example one that is BD related (and I can give many more such examples as presentations and WMV-DVD)

The PS3,PS4, XBone and WiiU all use BD-ROMs to distribute games (and the PS3 had a few games that used the 50GB to the max and all the PS4 games I have bought so far are using it to the max as well (over 40GB) and it just launched. if a console has a BD drive that can play BDXL, the games coming out a bit later that will >50GB could be on a 100GB disk instead of two BD50

2) You appear to miss the obvious, you realize that things take time but you forget that it applies to everything before we get 100GB movie disks at home the replicator needs to replicate them and before that he needs to have orders for them and before that he needs to tell the content owner the pricing and before that he needs to test the lines and train the people running them in order to determine cost and before that he needs to install those lines and before that the lines need to be manufactured and before that he needs to order them. The replicator can’t wait for the last minute for when the studio wants the disk on the shelf to order a line.

3) You appear not to realize that , yes, the PR did make a big deal about TL 100GB BDs, but a replication line is a replication line. The BluLine 3 does not only do TL BD100 it can replicate DL BD50 and SL BD25, replicators will tend to dedicate lines (since it does take some time to switch from one to the other and that is time where there won't be disks being manufactured) but the machines themselves are multipurpose, so why would a replicator buying a new line go “hey I don’t know if BD100 will be useful so instead of spending millions on BL3 I will spend millions on BL2 and just replace them when the BDA adds TL to the specs even though the BL3 is better at BD50 and BD25 than the older BL2”

4) You are forgetting that the reason BDXL was added as a writable/re-writable format was that there was no cost effective way to replicate those disks and so no use adding it to the white paper. Since the disks made by BL3 can be read by a BDXL drive, it does not matter if they are not officially in the BD whitepaper since every BDXL drive will be able to read them.

5) You miss the obvious, I KEEL YOU asked about BDXL but also “wouldn't it be better to have a proper 4K physical format then that has hundreds of gigabytes of space and can have 100 mbps bit rates?” the simple thing that any media with larger capacity or faster speed is not replicatable while BD100 is replicatable (even if you want to pretend it is sci-fi and only as a test at this time) makes all the difference in the world, which was my point to distinguish between R/RE and ROM

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by img eL

"Blu-ray disc penetration is still increasing," says John Anderson. "It currently stands at around 26% of UK households, and that's without including PS3. Some people still prefer to own their films on a physical disc, and as regards streaming, we still need a better broadband infrastructure. Plus you can't always get what you want on the streaming services."

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/ifa-201...udio-and-4k-tv

There ya go Sap. Are you a bit more positive now or do you think that ^ blogger (from 3 months ago) simply reported on Anderson giving a generic statement regarding the status of streaming vs. 4K Blu-ray rather than it being an Insider’s premonition of things to come and count on?

What’s rather curious is that for months there has been endless speculation and forecasting on a lot of audio/video websites as to whether there would, or would not be, a 4K Blu-ray format and now that a relatively high ranking employee of Sony has gone on record to proclaim he thinks that CES (which is in a few weeks) could prove to be a turning point in that specific regard….few have picked up/commented upon the story....and it seems 4K TVs are getting cheaper almost by the month. Perhaps people are waiting for the answer to come out at CES so they can then ‘analyze’ the outcome in a Monday morning quarterbacking type fashion with the aid of hindsight being 100% accurate.

Oh well, the article does bring up something which we have not really delved into on this thread but is of significance to folks who are “ahead of the curve” as Geoff likes to say. The blogger mentions OLED. I’m a big admirer of OLED. In fact, probably the only inherent weakness of the technology I can think of offhand is that, believe it or not, different viewers can see slightly different colors with OLED, given its narrow spectral emission. Sony has a workaround solution for that in their pro and studio OLED monitors.

Anyway, do you think that OLED will be a competitor to 4K (by promoting, more so, HD resolution), or do you think it will be an enabler of 4K? Important question.

P.S.
And don’t bring 8K sets into the equation, for if folks think you have to sit close to see ‘the full benefit’ of 4K, well, I guarantee you that no matter whose ‘chart’ you use as a reference, a viewer has to sit even closer to see ‘the full benefit’ of 8K.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In other words, when a professional facility takes a DCI P3 master and wants to convert it into Rec 709 for instance for a Blu-ray master, the problem is that there are ‘colors’ of the P3 space which do not fit within 709 (P3 is ~ 1.3x bigger[1.3 to 1, 1 being Rec709]), so one has to squeeze the larger space into the smaller which inevitably changes the color look of the images. There is no *automatic box*, so-to-speak which works well to convert all content so the colorist must make judgements about color quality and the perception of certain colors in order to fit the wider color space material within the narrower color gamut (709) and make the later look as close to the former as possible so there is transparency to filmmaker intent. Of course, with the caveat that the filmmaker wants home audiences to see as accurately as possible what theatrical audiences viewed with his/her motion picture in the first place.

So, anyway, for a feature motion picture (of about 2hr. length), this takes about 2 days of work. Not choice ‘A’ but…..singhcr, you made the closest guess as to the actual time which would be involved (and time = money)….and Sap got it correct in assuming that the process is not simply an automatic flip-of-the-switch conversion.

I didn't know it was that involved. Thanks for the info! I always enjoy learning new things like this.

One thing I am curious about is how a 35mm sourced production holds up to a DCP in terms of color. People have told me that digital scans of film have the same color information as the source but honestly I've yet to see even a 4K presentation look like film in terms of color depth/dynamic range, although they are getting closer. It would be really interesting to see how close a digital scan of an IMAX negative would come to reproducing the color and detail of the actual film negative.

Then again, perhaps the raw scans of a film are at, say, 12-bit XXX color space and then downgraded to 10-bit XXY for the DI work?

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Anyway, do you think that OLED will be a competitor to 4K (by promoting, more so, HD resolution), or do you think it will be an enabler of 4K? Important question.

I see it more as an enabler rather than a competitor. I am a big plasma fan and for whatever reason they will not be made anymore. I have long disliked LCD technology as the need for a backlight means that it is not capable of producing accurate and deep blacks.

I realize that OLED will make existing 1080p content look spectacular. That's a good thing, because true 4K content on an OLED display will look even better.

I had a 65" Toshiba 1080i RPTV for some time. It made the DVDs I had look spectacular and the black levels of a good CRT were only equaled by the 65" plasma TV I now have. However, adding a Blu-ray player to the mix made me quickly forget my DVDs. Now, if OLEDs were only 1080p and I had to suffer with LCD displays for 4K I might be hesitant in that case to "upgrade".

If you play 4K and 1080p content on a good OLED display, the 4K will win hands down. There are those who cannot tell a difference but there are also people who claim to see no difference between DVD and BD so I don't think OLED will steal 4K's fire, so to speak. Eventually all sets will become 4K anyway and there's also people who would want 4K sets just because they heard that it was the latest and greatest thing.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

There ya go Sap. Are you a bit more positive now or do you think that ^ blogger (from 3 months ago) simply reported on Anderson giving a generic statement regarding the status of streaming vs. 4K Blu-ray rather than it being an Insider’s premonition of things to come and count on?

What’s rather curious is that for months there has been endless speculation and forecasting on a lot of audio/video websites as to whether there would, or would not be, a 4K Blu-ray format and now that a relatively high ranking employee of Sony has gone on record to proclaim he thinks that CES (which is in a few weeks) could prove to be a turning point in that specific regard….few have picked up/commented upon the story....and it seems 4K TVs are getting cheaper almost by the month. Perhaps people are waiting for the answer to come out at CES so they can then ‘analyze’ the outcome in a Monday morning quarterbacking type fashion with the aid of hindsight being 100% accurate.

Oh well, the article does bring up something which we have not really delved into on this thread but is of significance to folks who are “ahead of the curve” as Geoff likes to say. The blogger mentions OLED. I’m a big admirer of OLED. In fact, probably the only inherent weakness of the technology I can think of offhand is that, believe it or not, different viewers can see slightly different colors with OLED, given its narrow spectral emission. Sony has a workaround solution for that in their pro and studio OLED monitors.

Anyway, do you think that OLED will be a competitor to 4K (by promoting, more so, HD resolution), or do you think it will be an enabler of 4K? Important question.

P.S.
And don’t bring 8K sets into the equation, for if folks think you have to sit close to see ‘the full benefit’ of 4K, well, I guarantee you that no matter whose ‘chart’ you use as a reference, a viewer has to sit even closer to see ‘the full benefit’ of 8K.

I suspect it will actually be neither a competitor nor an enabler. I think 4K will be pushed through to lower price points via LCD panels over the next 1-2 years. OLED will command the premium during that time as production ramps/scales, at which point the future will be 4K OLED panels as they approach price parity (maybe 2-5 years out). I think 2K OLED will be minimal.

Let's also not forget that barring a 4K Blu-ray announcement at CES in Jan, there is little to no 4K content. To me, no Blu-ray 4K in 2014 is the equivalent to botching the 4K rollout. When will we see 4K broadcast if ever? I have little to no interest in streaming large 4K files. Give it to me on disc, or I'll pass on 4K.

[jamesslater]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I see it more as an enabler rather than a competitor. I am a big plasma fan and for whatever reason they will not be made anymore. I have long disliked LCD technology as the need for a backlight means that it is not capable of producing accurate and deep blacks.

I realize that OLED will make existing 1080p content look spectacular. That's a good thing, because true 4K content on an OLED display will look even better.

I do hope so

Relevant quote from "Panasonic UK Senior Manager for the Visual Marketing Group Fabrice Estornel" in Inside CI earlier this year:

Estornel added that Panasonic had no plans to market Full HD OLED TVs: "No, we will go straight to 4K," he said.

(As for 8K, I'm going to guess that in 2025 it will be roughly in the same place 4K is now. Just a guess. )

[Geoff D]

I think Esox50 has got it right. At this point in time, OLED is still incredibly expensive, so whether it's HD or 4K it'll stand alone from every existing technology, be it HD plasma, 4K LCD or whatever. IMO it'll neither help nor hinder 4K adoption, not in its current state anyway.

I say "in its current state" because by the time that 4K OLED begins to filter through at respectable price points, HOPEFULLY we'll have 4K Blu-ray and the two can make beautiful, er, music together. The 4K versions of both OLED and Blu-ray could well be the killer combo that the 4K format is crying out for.

[img eL]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Let's also not forget that barring a 4K Blu-ray announcement at CES in Jan, there is little to no 4K content. To me, no Blu-ray 4K in 2014 is the equivalent to botching the 4K rollout. When will we see 4K broadcast if ever? I have little to no interest in streaming large 4K files. Give it to me on disc, or I'll pass on 4K.

Well at the very least the BDA should improve 1080p Blu ray & include 100/128GB Blu ray discs for Movies & SD content

[singhcr]

I wonder if there will be a 4K OLED projector announced any time soon. I've been wanting to get into the projector game for some time but I was hoping for an upgrade over the LCD or DCP technologies.

[vargo]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I wonder if there will be a 4K OLED projector announced any time soon. I've been wanting to get into the projector game for some time but I was hoping for an upgrade over the LCD or DCP technologies.

There has been some OLED projector concepts but nothing even remotely close to market. It's not a technology that lends itself well to projection.

[jamesslater]

^

Now, laser projection, on the other hand, I am very much looking forward to, and hope to see in my local IMAX real soon.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You mean you feel the day of ‘reckoning’ cometh?....and in Sin City no less!

No, nothing that dramatic. Just didn't like the sound of it.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

...People have told me that digital scans of film have the same color information as the source but honestly I've yet to see even a 4K presentation look like film in terms of color depth/dynamic range

Well, first things first. And that be the scanner. In that regards -

The challenge of meeting the dynamic range of film was accomplished only fairly recently (in terms of overall datacine history) in 2009 by the Scanity, which was mentioned back here - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ty#post5262638

To elaborate a bit more, until the Scanity arrived on scene, most scanners (due to limitations of sensor technology) were scanning film at ~ 2.3 film density. Problem is, there is 3.1-3.3 density range on motion picture negative. OOPS! Dem previous scans of films (no matter what the studio or post house), even if they were scanning 35mm film with a 4K scanner were not capturing all the information on some of their negatives.

Then, things changed (for the good) in film scanner land when DFT made the Scanity, which testing by one arguably ‘independent’ lab showed it to have a dynamic range coming in at 3.3 film density.

[Penton-Man]

Good conversation on OLED (as to its relationship to 4K). Seems everyone is making some good points from their perspective of the situation.

When I get more time, I’ll delve a little more from the perspective of the pure ‘technology’ aspect of it all. Believe me, in years to come, this is going to be a BIG….and relevant topic of discussion.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by jamesslater

^

Now, laser projection, on the other hand, I am very much looking forward to, and hope to see in my local IMAX real soon.

File that under *Just tell me we don’t have to replace the freakin screen….AGAIN!*.

IMAX Melbourne Upgrade - YouTube

This recent award winning paper..."The results of the research should lead to improved optimisation techniques for cinema sound by providing new insights into the selection of screen materials..."(http://www.mondodr.com/Latest/214998...yer_sound.html) has already scared us enough for the time being.