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Old 05-15-2021, 04:37 PM   #41
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
but IMO with enough Bandwidth and Hardwired HD Streaming Quality beats DVD and equals BD!
Absolutely. Take something like Kaleidescape, their HD digital quality matches BD as it is str4eaming from the local server to the player. The problem is that you assume "enough BW" is a user issue, when the real culprit is the content provider and so it is true for everyone that uses that service (now it is possible that someone's internet connection make it worst, but even if someone has a 200Mb connection Netflix (or Disney+ or.....) won't do 200Mb.


Quote:
These comparisons are all subjective
the same way some think evolution is subjective. Don't get me wrong if Joe
says "I don't care what looks better" that is 100% subjective. But there are tools out there, used by professionals, that can objectively say if X is better then Y and no subjectivity is needed.
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Old 05-15-2021, 11:45 PM   #42
unberechenbar unberechenbar is online now
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I just got into collecting recently so I don't really have much on DVD/Blu-ray. I can't see myself buying non-UHD Blu-rays in the future since the movies I already have the movies I want on 4K Blu-ray.
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Old 05-16-2021, 12:01 AM   #43
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
Absolutely. Take something like Kaleidescape, their HD digital quality matches BD as it is str4eaming from the local server to the player. The problem is that you assume "enough BW" is a user issue, when the real culprit is the content provider and so it is true for everyone that uses that service (now it is possible that someone's internet connection make it worst, but even if someone has a 200Mb connection Netflix (or Disney+ or.....) won't do 200Mb.
Kaleidscape is a DOWNLOAD system; it is NOT streaming in any sense of the term. Kaleidescape downloads can equal 4K disc, not just blu-ray.

Streaming is a method of viewing video or listening to audio content without actually downloading the media files. With streaming, the media file being played on the client device is stored remotely, and is transmitted a few seconds at a time over the Internet."

https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/...-is-streaming/

Anything that you watch contained within your local home network is a file that has already been completely downloaded to your storage device. No internet connection is needed to access content stored on your home network.

Alchav is talking about the quality obtained from using streaming services like Netflix and Vudu where the content is located on, and remains on, their remote servers. A HD stream does not equal a blu-ray in most instances.

With Kaleidescape, you download a purchased movie from the Kaleidescape store to either the Strato S movie player or to the Terra server; both are proprietary devices with conventional hard drives. The optional Strato C works with the Strato S or Terra allowing you to watch what you have downloaded over your local home network. You can not watch your Kaleidescape movie until the entire movie has completely downloaded to your Strato S movie player or Terra server. Because these are downloads, the speed of my internet connection is irrelevant to playback quality; my internet speed only determines how long it takes to complete the download.

"If a video file is downloaded, a copy of the entire file is saved onto a device's hard drive, and the video cannot play until the entire file finishes downloading. If it's streamed instead, the browser plays the video without actually copying and saving it. The video loads a little bit at a time instead of the entire file loading at once, and the information that the browser loads is not saved locally."

https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/...-is-streaming/

The Digital Bits describing Kaleidescape:

"Remember, this isn’t a streaming experience. You download the movie directly to your unit. So when you play it back, you’re doing so at the full bit rate."

https://thedigitalbits.com/featured/...ainment/page-2

Wikipedia explains Kaleidescape:

"The Strato S is a “movie player,” a disc-less playback device that users can add content to by downloading titles from Kaleidescape's movie store to the device's hard drive. The Strato S is available in a 6TB and a 12TB version; there is also an external server called the Terra if more space is needed."

"The Strato C is a smaller movie player with no internal storage. It can connect to the Terra or the Strato S and access content stored on those devices’ internal hard drives."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleidescape#Products

Last edited by Vilya; 05-16-2021 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:23 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
Kaleidscape is a DOWNLOAD system; it is NOT streaming in any sense of the term. Kaleidescape downloads can equal 4K disc, not just blu-ray.

Streaming is a method of viewing video or listening to audio content without actually downloading the media files. With streaming, the media file being played on the client device is stored remotely, and is transmitted a few seconds at a time over the Internet."
Right you are Vilya.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:27 AM   #45
JohnAV JohnAV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unberechenbar View Post
I just got into collecting recently so I don't really have much on DVD/Blu-ray. I can't see myself buying non-UHD Blu-rays in the future since the movies I already have the movies I want on 4K Blu-ray.
While that works out most of the time for newer releases, you are still dealing with some studio releases not offered in 4K. Perhaps maybe in the future.
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Old 05-16-2021, 02:27 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
While that works out most of the time for newer releases, you are still dealing with some studio releases not offered in 4K. Perhaps maybe in the future.
There are a few I wanted that missed the UHD BD cut: Little Women and Dora Lost City of Gold (mostly for my granddaughter). The former I just decided not to buy and the latter I purchased the 4k HDR Vudu version (which looks way better than the HD streaming version and I'm sure better than the BD as well, as the HDR makes a big difference).

I just can't get myself to buy a movie knowing that a better version exists, whether it is physical or not. I have purchased very few digital movies over the years though, as I have had a not so great experience with my digital purchases disappearing (Sony is the culprit). But so far all my Vudu movies have remained intact and it was an impulse purchase (as I'm sure many digital purchases are).
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Old 05-16-2021, 02:36 PM   #47
bruceames bruceames is offline
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Streaming has improved a lot to eliminating the obvious problems (like buffering and the horrible macroblocking). But when you compare to the BD it leaves out an awful lot of fine detail. You probably won't miss it when watching a streaming movie because you won't know it's supposed to be there, but the difference is quite obvious and has been that way as long as I remember.

As Wendell said, they are using the codec improvements to throttle the bit rate even more, and that fine detail especially is a bit rate hog.
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Old 05-16-2021, 04:33 PM   #48
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
Kaleidscape is a DOWNLOAD system; it is NOT streaming in any sense of the term. Kaleidescape downloads can equal 4K disc, not just blu-ray.


Streaming is a method of viewing video or listening to audio content without actually downloading the media files. With streaming, the media file being played on the client device is stored remotely, and is transmitted a few seconds at a time over the Internet."

https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/...-is-streaming/

Anything that you watch contained within your local home network is a file that has already been completely downloaded to your storage device. No internet connection is needed to access content stored on your home network.

Alchav is talking about the quality obtained from using streaming services like Netflix and Vudu where the content is located on, and remains on, their remote servers. A HD stream does not equal a blu-ray in most instances.

With Kaleidescape, you download a purchased movie from the Kaleidescape store to either the Strato S movie player or to the Terra server; both are proprietary devices with conventional hard drives. The optional Strato C works with the Strato S or Terra allowing you to watch what you have downloaded over your local home network. You can not watch your Kaleidescape movie until the entire movie has completely downloaded to your Strato S movie player or Terra server. Because these are downloads, the speed of my internet connection is irrelevant to playback quality; my internet speed only determines how long it takes to complete the download.

"If a video file is downloaded, a copy of the entire file is saved onto a device's hard drive, and the video cannot play until the entire file finishes downloading. If it's streamed instead, the browser plays the video without actually copying and saving it. The video loads a little bit at a time instead of the entire file loading at once, and the information that the browser loads is not saved locally."

https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/...-is-streaming/

The Digital Bits describing Kaleidescape:

"Remember, this isn’t a streaming experience. You download the movie directly to your unit. So when you play it back, you’re doing so at the full bit rate."

https://thedigitalbits.com/featured/...ainment/page-2

Wikipedia explains Kaleidescape:

"The Strato S is a “movie player,” a disc-less playback device that users can add content to by downloading titles from Kaleidescape's movie store to the device's hard drive. The Strato S is available in a 6TB and a 12TB version; there is also an external server called the Terra if more space is needed."

"The Strato C is a smaller movie player with no internal storage. It can connect to the Terra or the Strato S and access content stored on those devices’ internal hard drives."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleidescape#Products

1) if I lead anyone astray I apologize, the discussing was about HD so I did not think it was necessary to add about their ability for 4K content that is equivalent to UHD BD

2) I know you looked hard to try and find a definition that at first glance appears to contradict what I said by adding the useless word "internet" to it but streaming does not necessarily need to be over the "internet".

3) can you show me where K says the player and server have to absolutely be on the same "home network"?

4) I know "Alchav is talking about the quality obtained from using streaming services like Netflix and Vudu".

a) don't both of those allow you to watch that content later (aka DL), if you decide to watch it later is the quality different?

b) I was just trying to be nice and throw alchev a bone. In theory there is nothing stopping someone with Gb connection from streaming BD (or UHD BD) quality over the internet, the problem and reality is none of the services would want to pay what is needed to do so.
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Old 05-16-2021, 05:13 PM   #49
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
1) if I lead anyone astray I apologize, the discussing was about HD so I did not think it was necessary to add about their ability for 4K content that is equivalent to UHD BD

2) I know you looked hard to try and find a definition that at first glance appears to contradict what I said by adding the useless word "internet" to it but streaming does not necessarily need to be over the "internet".

3) can you show me where K says the player and server have to absolutely be on the same "home network"?

4) I know "Alchav is talking about the quality obtained from using streaming services like Netflix and Vudu".

a) don't both of those allow you to watch that content later (aka DL), if you decide to watch it later is the quality different?

b) I was just trying to be nice and throw alchev a bone. In theory there is nothing stopping someone with Gb connection from streaming BD (or UHD BD) quality over the internet, the problem and reality is none of the services would want to pay what is needed to do so.
Another definition for streaming from Cambridge Dictionary:

"the activity of listening to or watching sound or video directly from the internet."

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...lish/streaming

Only in the above context does the speed of our internet connection matter and you did bring up the subject of internet speeds in your previous post. The speed of my home network is not determined by the speed of my internet service.

That is also the definition of streaming that applies in almost every discussion on these forums. Streaming can refer to the streaming of data that originates on, and that is transmitted over, a home network, all self-contained, but that is not what we are talking about as the speed of our internet connections are irrelevant in that situation.

For example, I have a broadband internet connection that gives me download speeds of 135 Mbps while my sister has an ADSL internet connection that only gives her download speeds of 18 Mbps, but our home network speeds are the same. The only difference is that I could download a Kaleidescape movie a lot faster than my sister could, but once we have both completed that download, our playback quality would be the same.

The two articles that I linked to above explains how Kaleidescape works. To use Kaleidescape you only need the Strato S movie player which can be directly connected to your AVR or display like any other input device. The Terra Server is an optional add-on that gives you much more storage while the Strato C is the optional device that allows you to watch your Kaleidescape downloads (from the Strato S movie player or Terra server) over your home network.

The streaming services that do allow downloading only offer far more heavily compressed versions than what they offer over streaming.

Alchav is also the same person that said that he can not see much of a difference between a HD stream and a 4K stream, so it is not that surprising that he can not tell a difference between a HD stream and a blu-ray. And as for audio, he thinks that a pair of headphones that merely simulate surround sound is almost as good as a true surround sound system. He is not very discerning when it comes to quality. It's perfectly fine that he is happy with his arrangement, but I would not place much stock in his opinions about the PQ or AQ of anything that he watches.

The theory of what streaming (over the internet) could offer and the reality of what it does offer are two very different things. As bruceames noted above, streaming services are more interested in finding ways to deliver existing levels of quality using less bandwidth; they are interested in reducing their costs.

Last edited by Vilya; 05-16-2021 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 05-16-2021, 06:05 PM   #50
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I do not believe that either Netflix or Vudu allow for downloads
just as an fyi

I don't think it is available on all devices (aka not needed for smart TVs where it is assumed you have power and internet 24/7 but someone might want to watch on their cell in the middle of the woods so available on mobile devices like cells, tablet, laptops)

How to download TV shows and movies to watch offline

Vudu Movie Download
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Old 05-16-2021, 06:09 PM   #51
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
just as an fyi

I don't think it is available on all devices (aka not needed for smart TVs where it is assumed you have power and internet 24/7 but someone might want to watch on their cell in the middle of the woods so available on mobile devices like cells, tablet, laptops)

How to download TV shows and movies to watch offline

Vudu Movie Download
I amended that line accordingly.

I knew that some services allowed for this, but I never paid much attention as to which ones because watching a movie or a TV show on a phone or tablet does not appeal to me at all.

If I'm in the woods and I need a story, I'll read a book...a real one.

Last edited by Vilya; 05-16-2021 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:01 PM   #52
Ruined Ruined is offline
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Originally Posted by PhysicalMediaNut View Post
Once I got into blu-ray I found it hard to go back to DVD for anything. Do those who buy 4k find it hard to go back to blu-ray after making the switch? I’m just curious. Is it that much of a leap in technology?
No, the difference isn't nearly as large as it was for DVD to BD. In fact, for catalog titles often the updated masters (which could be put on bd or 4k) are more of an improvement than the actual 4k resolution & HDR
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Old 06-03-2021, 09:52 PM   #53
JohnAV JohnAV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
No, the difference isn't nearly as large as it was for DVD to BD. In fact, for catalog titles often the updated masters (which could be put on bd or 4k) are more of an improvement than the actual 4k resolution & HDR
A 4K native UHD BD is still the best thing right now. A 2K DI used to make a UHD BD that only gives you some increased detail and HDR, when compared to the BD is more challenging as a lot of the time the BD might not even be a shining example of how good a well mastered BD can be. Still I take the HDR one over the SDR most of the time, its just looks a lot better. Example Pacific Rim.
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Old 06-06-2021, 09:52 AM   #54
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I have aiways sold my previous format, DVD, Blu-ray to upgrade, now i only buy 4K.
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Old 06-07-2021, 03:43 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laservampire View Post
I'm more excited for 4K as an excuse to properly remaster older titles, rather than it being a superior format to blu-ray.
Assuming studios actually sink the money to do the remastering. Otherwise, it's just an excuse to rerelease existing titles on the new format again, then go through the same process when they release super betamax ultra in ten years or so.

Otherwise, only the new titles that they actually shell out the money to film in these super extreme formats will benefit from this, and everything else will look worse for it.
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:52 PM   #56
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I pretty much avoid DVD if I can. The only DVDs I have left are movies not released on Blu-ray.

Blu-ray to UHD though is far less of a leap and more like the cherry on the sundae.

I'll always prefer the UHD unless it's botched but to me it's like getting the ultimate version of the film. Still, Blu-ray is extremely close to the theatrical presentation and if that's all that is available, I'm perfectly content with it.

I have went as far as to making a watch list though and separate the UHD from the Blu-ray. With UHD, it's like getting to watch a movie in its final/ultimate form. If I sit down to watch Mad Max for instance in UHD, it's a lot more special than watching just the Blu-ray. I know it's pretty much the final time I'll be purchasing the movie and I'm going to be watching in the best possible quality. There's just a little more there and once I watch it on UHD, I can check it off the list as truly watched.
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