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Old 01-23-2021, 07:00 PM   #781
chip75 chip75 is online now
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Originally Posted by Cinema84 View Post
If the first 7 seasons were shot on film, how expensive can it really be to properly restore them? Image restored the original Twilight Zone and they had to deal with much older materials and the results were breathtaking. Paramount just released a Mission: Impossible complete series set on Blu-ray.
The difference is that I presume that Mission: Impossible and The Twilight Zone were finished on film, SG-1 wasn't. So depending on the service used for creating the new HD masters it's a huge task. Someone like Illuminate can use iConform to scan for the correct footage, but it's still a big job.

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Originally Posted by Cinema84 View Post
Stargate SG-1 has a huge worldwide fan base so I think a restoration would pay for itself in no time. A whole bunch of people signed up here just to chime in.
It does, but those fans have the DVDs or access to streaming services to watch them on. Yes, we'd love HD masters on Blu-ray, but the money's with streaming not physical media, unfortunately and most people are happy with SD streams.

It's unlikely that MGM would pay in the millions to create new masters, when they're making money licensing the old ones. They could release the HD seasons on Blu-ray and go season by season after that, but we've seen quite a few shows that have stopped releasing before completion.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:08 PM   #782
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We also have to remember MGM is looking to be sold, so money coming in from any licensing looks better then debt from new transfers. Hopefully, after a sale, the new owners will think better of SG-1's future.
Yeah, but also, VEI's pockets were apparently as deep as the pockets got looking to even license it. That doesn't bode well for the popularity, or even other studios' expectations of popularity, of the Stargate franchise. I think, as fans, everyone here is too biased through their rose colored glasses when trying to guess how popular the series must still be/how much popularity is left in it.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:18 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
unfortunately and most people are happy with SD streams.
Which is why we are never going to see another TNGR-level job again. People are still watching the SD content for DS9 and Voyager. As long as they can syndicate (TV or streaming) those shows, there is just no incentive to spend the money to remaster them. People like to suggest that the TNG remastering didn't lose money because it is being streamed. The issue is not whether or not it's being streamed, the issue is whether or not they could have continued streaming the SD content, which obviously, they could have. It seems evident that the TNG Remaster was the grand experiment to see if you can make money remastering a long-running television show that was finished on video. It ain't happening again.

I figure in another ten years, the built-in upscaling a high-end TV can do will surpass the best fan-made attempts that we see today, and all this will be fairly moot.

Not saying I don't want to see HD remasters of SG1, Andromeda, Voyager, and DS9. I surely do.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:20 PM   #784
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Yeah, but also, VEI's pockets were apparently as deep as the pockets got looking to even license it. That doesn't bode well for the popularity, or even other studios' expectations of popularity, of the Stargate franchise. I think, as fans, everyone here is too biased through their rose colored glasses when trying to guess how popular the series must still be.
That isn't necessarily tied to popularity. In this case, all seasons had already been released on DVDs. MGM was only offering SD up-converts. Not exactly the scenario a Kino or Shout! would be interested in. That leaves the lower-end Millcreek's and VEI's to pick up. If these were true HD, MGM or bigger fish would have been interested. Not saying Stargate has the fan base of Star Trek, but it has been a lucrative series and could continue to be if not left behind. At some point, SD and up-converts won't cut it for syndication and streaming.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:21 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by obl918 View Post
Not saying I don't want to see HD remasters of SG1, Andromeda, Voyager, and DS9. I surely do.
Jeez, none of these shows' producers thought about the future?
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:26 PM   #786
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I figure in another ten years, the built-in upscaling a high-end TV can do will surpass the best fan-made attempts that we see today, and all this will be fairly moot.
It won't even be actual upscaling, it will be like Nvidia's DLSS currently and be actual real-time AI image reconstruction of a source image/file/movie frame by frame to a higher resolution. Streaming companies and ISPs will love this as it will help reduce what they have to store at the datacenter in terms of file size thus HDDs/SSDs thus overall capacity as they can have once source file/version lower than native res of the playback device and the client's end just DLSS AI reconstructs it on the TV/TV box end to native resolution. And like with DLSS, actually looking better than natural native resolution in certain scenarios (but by then, all the time - cause the future).

Last edited by staknhalo; 01-23-2021 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:47 PM   #787
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Jeez, none of these shows' producers thought about the future?
I don't think it is a matter of not thinking about it, but that the cost to do so at that time would have been cost prohibitive.
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:50 PM   #788
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Not saying I don't want to see HD remasters of SG1, Andromeda, Voyager, and DS9. I surely do.
I think we will. The cost to transfer and redo the SFX will continue to go down as time goes on. It wouldn't make sense not to do it. And true HD will be better than any AI up-scaling. However, physical media might not get the benefits, it may be all streaming by that time.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:06 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by smithb View Post
I don't think it is a matter of not thinking about it, but that the cost to do so at that time would have been cost prohibitive.
Most of these show came out pre-dvd let alone pre-streaming. The only second run concerns they had were in syndication and TVs were still 4:3 CRTs at the commercial level. DVD and HD TV came up FAST, it took a while for a lot of companies to realize these were the future markets to be most concerned about.

Last edited by Jim Purcell; 01-23-2021 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:36 PM   #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema84 View Post
If the first 7 seasons were shot on film, how expensive can it really be to properly restore them? Image restored the original Twilight Zone and they had to deal with much older materials and the results were breathtaking. Paramount just released a Mission: Impossible complete series set on Blu-ray. Stargate SG-1 has a huge worldwide fan base so I think a restoration would pay for itself in no time. A whole bunch of people signed up here just to chime in.
Million's of $. Both Star Trek TOS and TNG remasters were probably a budget of a small movie. You have to scan all the footage, make new FX or uprez the FX scenes then edited it all together. Probably 1-2 million a season.

Mission: Impossible has no FX like Sci-Fi shows, everything is on the film, so they just scan them, clean them up and then put them on disc.
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Old 01-23-2021, 10:56 PM   #791
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Jeez, none of these shows' producers thought about the future?
They were all working on a budget. There's an story about B5 and the reason they didn't do the VFX shots in widescreen. They say Netter didn't want to pay $5000 for the studio monitor that would have been needed for it. Why would he? It's one thing to protect the edges of the 16:9 frame you're already using; it's another to start paying money for content they will just crop off. These guys didn't know if their show was even going to be renewed from year to year; expecting them to spend money protecting their content for what may or may not happen in the future is just not reasonable.

There are some bonehead choices, of course. Voyager, DS9, and B5 all produced their CGI effects at 30fps for video, instead of matching the film 24fps. That creates a lot of unnecessary problems, not to mention the subliminal jarring of constantly switching framerates. Anyway, hindsight is 2020, as they say...

Last edited by obl918; 01-23-2021 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:04 AM   #792
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I just read Gateworld's review, and they're claiming that the true AC 5.1 track might actually just be swapped with the stereo track. They say:

Quote:
In Search of Physical Media, however, reached a different conclusion. After testing he suggests that the discs themselves may have been incorrectly authored, with the 5.1 surround mix labeled as stero and the stereo mix labeled as 5.1 surround — at least for the first two seasons. So selecting the stereo mix would, in fact, output proper surround sound (and vice versa).
Has anyone tested/verified this theory yet?
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:31 AM   #793
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Its ironic that American TV shows from the 1950s to the 1980s look great in HD while shows from the 1990s to 2005 have awful pq.

Last edited by Deadend45; 01-24-2021 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:32 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by whitehusky View Post
I just read Gateworld's review, and they're claiming that the true AC 5.1 track might actually just be swapped with the stereo track. They say:



Has anyone tested/verified this theory yet?
Can't speak to those earlier seasons, but just looking at the metadata for season 7 episodes, the audio streams appear to be properly labeled (still screwed up and flattened though) because of their bitrate at least.
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Old 01-24-2021, 04:27 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by Deadend45 View Post
Its ironic that American TV shows from the 1950s to the 1980s look great in HD while shows from the 1990s to 2005 have awful pq.
When shows started being shot on videotape* instead of film, the troubles started.

*or filmed on film then transferred to tape masters after effects work was finalized.
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Old 01-24-2021, 06:21 AM   #796
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Originally Posted by Deadend45 View Post
Its ironic that American TV shows from the 1950s to the 1980s look great in HD while shows from the 1990s to 2005 have awful pq.
You can thank Desi Arnaz and I Love Lucy and the advent of Desilu productions for starting the use of film for TV. Prior to that it was live or kinoscope. In the 70's studio bound productions (many sitcoms) went to video because it was cheaper. Many of the later SFX laden TV shows never could have been done on film (with blue screen and models) due to cost. The film to video for post processing of SFX was the only way to do it within the required budgets. It was a necessary limitation of the time. Without it I don't think we would have had all the great SciFi shows we did.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:44 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by Deadend45 View Post
Its ironic that American TV shows from the 1950s to the 1980s look great in HD while shows from the 1990s to 2005 have awful pq.
Shows back then also used practical sets with little or sparing green screen.
The 60's scfi show Lost In Space got the Bluray remastering and although SFX is primitive by today's standard, it was relatively easy to transfer as it's SFX was rendered on film. it also used a lot of practical sets and real life miniatures. The worst thing for that was you could now see the seams and occasional strings holding up the models.
Cost wise, its upgrade was paid for by Irwin Allen's wife Sheila and not the studio.
It had a benefactor of sorts and it may be a case that the only way some of the 90's scifi shows will get an upgrade is if some mega rich VIP fan puts up the money. The studio likely wont.xxxxxxxxxxx.jpg
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Old 01-24-2021, 12:50 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by obl918 View Post
Which is why we are never going to see another TNGR-level job again. People are still watching the SD content for DS9 and Voyager. As long as they can syndicate (TV or streaming) those shows, there is just no incentive to spend the money to remaster them. People like to suggest that the TNG remastering didn't lose money because it is being streamed. The issue is not whether or not it's being streamed, the issue is whether or not they could have continued streaming the SD content, which obviously, they could have. It seems evident that the TNG Remaster was the grand experiment to see if you can make money remastering a long-running television show that was finished on video. It ain't happening again.

I figure in another ten years, the built-in upscaling a high-end TV can do will surpass the best fan-made attempts that we see today, and all this will be fairly moot.

Not saying I don't want to see HD remasters of SG1, Andromeda, Voyager, and DS9. I surely do.
I still have hope for Voyager and DS9 remasters as CBS just recently completed remastering both Charmed and MacGyver. With Charmed, they upscaled the CGI, which could happen for Star Trek.

It seems as though Charmed and MacGyver were chosen by CBS for remastering as they both have new reboots airing at the moment. Star Trek is in the same position now, owned by CBS with new shows airing.

I would be very happy if CBS did to Star Trek Voyager and DS9 what they did with the remastering on Charmed. Upscale the VFX and overlay on HD film elements.
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:27 PM   #799
Deadend45 Deadend45 is offline
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Originally Posted by smithb View Post
Many of the later SFX laden TV shows never could have been done on film (with blue screen and models) due to cost. The film to video for post processing of SFX was the only way to do it within the required budgets. It was a necessary limitation of the time. Without it I don't think we would have had all the great SciFi shows we did.
Enterprise (2001) was done from beginning to end on film (The last season was done on digital and is the worst looking of the seasons) so yes it could of been done. The shows done on video were Just being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh27 View Post
Cost wise, its upgrade was paid for by Irwin Allen's wife Sheila and not the studio.
Lost in Space is just one of quite a few shot-on-film and edited-on-film TV shows available on Blur-ray and look great (when not DnRed).

Last edited by Deadend45; 01-24-2021 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 01-24-2021, 02:18 PM   #800
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Originally Posted by whitehusky View Post
Ok, I finished adding the DVD AC3 5.1 audio to the new BR's. Here's the complete list of offset delays I used.

S02E01-E03 850ms
S02E04-E22 1050ms

S03E01-E11 350ms
S03E12 0ms
S03E13-E22 350ms

S04E01-E22 750ms

S05E01-E03 -4750ms
S05E04 -250ms
S05E05-E07 0ms
S05E08 -1000ms
S05E09-E13 0ms
S05E14 -550ms
S05E15-E17 0ms
S05E18-E19 -550ms
S05E20-E22 0ms

S06E01 -5750ms
S06E02 -5650ms
S06E03 -5700ms
S06E04 -5750ms
S06E05-E06 -5700ms
S06E07 -5650ms
S06E08-E11 -5700ms
S06E12 -5650ms
S06E13 -5700ms
S06E14-E15 -5650ms
S06E16-E21 -5700ms
S06E22 -5650ms

S07E01-E20 -5700ms
S07E2-E22 Lost City's in two episodes and can't easily be done

Seasons 5 & 6 have such big negative delays because the BR's are missing the lion's roar in the beginning that the DVD's have.
Legend!

I've muxed the BluRay video with NTSC DVD audio for seasons 2 and 3 so far, spot checked each episode and they're perfectly in sync

May I ask how you managed to sync them up, was it trial and error episode by episode or was there a more efficient approach?

Last edited by NZDivinity; 01-24-2021 at 02:23 PM.
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